Caveat de emptor comes to mind, Buyer beware.Marine paint suppliers.

[woodjam]

Painting a canal barge in the 21^st centaury.

Where the British standards have analysed all paint finishes so that they can be to a standard colour.

So that matching of colours can be made easy.

There is also the ral system that works on there standard colours.

This conformity is standard across paints ,powder coatings, fibreglass. resin floors.Materials.even glass splash backs for kitchens can be matched to a specific ral colour or bs.

I am not sure about hand bags and shoes as a male of the species I am not an expert. Except when my partner assumes that I am.

All the big paint manufacturers conform to the same rules.

Imagine my suprise when we painted our bespoke wide beam.

Paint chosen and colours used Oxford blue and top lac cream.

We followed the instructions and painted the dream barge.

All finished and looking amazing.

We then decided to colour match accessories.

Fibre glass rub rails. Checker plate with powder coating. A bespoke barge board made from reinforced fibre glass. Front and rear canopies all the supliers chosen conformed to BS/RAL colour schemes.

We approached top lac International to get the BS or ral numbers that we wanted to match.

After a very long and protracted conversation with their Katie Miller Sales executive, the out come was that they did not conform to BS or ral numbers.The nearest matches were miles away.

So I then contacted their European manager.

Guess what It was my fault for buying their paint I should have checked that their paint was not to the industry norm. "We do not conform to bs or ral numbers"

""They have made paint for 100s of years and that’s the way they do it".

I asked for a refund, and as it was my fault they would not give a refund.

Great customer service.

So Caveat de emptor comes to mind, Buyer beware.

If they ignore BS and ral on colour matching what else are they ignoring when it comes to Regulations.

It does worry me that this company does not warn customers of the fact that their colours cannot be matched or even exchanged when the error is exposed.

But after all the customer is never right with this company.

The price of there paint £27.50 for .0750 litre tin, so not a cheap product .

We are now in a dilemma do we have a canal barge that is a total miss match of colours or do we bite the bullet and repaint all of of our dream boat to have a colour match.

Including shot blasting priming and new paints plus our boat being dry docked for the entire operation.

Atotal cost of five grand.

So when you are choosing your paints for your dream boat ask one simple questiond does it conform to bs or ral colours. If not find another supplier of paint.

Any ideas of how we can resolve the issue with out spending 5 grand will be greatly recieved.

The paint manufacturer is not interested.

 

[OldGoldy]

 

Any ideas of how we can resolve the issue with out spending 5 grand will be greatly recieved.

The paint manufacturer is not interested.

 

 

 

Your colours would not match anyway after a period of time, unless you kept your boat out of the sun.......and if you knew you were going to colour match, then you should have chosed BS or RAL colours to start with. Sorry, you don't want to hear that, but don't blame the paint mfrs for your own lack of research.

 

Solution? IMHO get accessories that are lighter than the paint. They will match as your paint fades.

Edited June 28, 2013 by dave69700

[LoneWolf]

 

Any ideas of how we can resolve the issue with out spending 5 grand will be greatly recieved.

The paint manufacturer is not interested.

 

 

 

yes, you could attempt to reframe your viewpoint to look on the bright side. So what if the paint doesnt exactly match - go boating & spend the £5grand on having fun

[Kwacker]

I know a man who earns his living touring the country calibrating / matching colours - or teaching others how to do it. I'll have a word with him if you like.

[bizzard]

 

yes, you could attempt to reframe your viewpoint to look on the bright side. So what if the paint doesnt exactly match - go boating & spend the £5grand on having fun

I don't think International do Bright side paint anymore.

Paint your trim, bits and bobs with a lighter blue. Two tones of the same colour look good.

[OldGoldy]

I don't think International do Bright side paint anymore.

Paint your trim, bits and bobs with a lighter blue. Two tones of the same colour look good.

 

Don't you just love this guy's sense of humour?

[woodjam]

Appreciate your replies especially Kwaker.

I am learning that the barge industry is some what antiquated and traditional in its view points.

Yes in future I, will give the same detail to paints external, as I did on the rest of the build, do more research into the canal standards .As a designer of modern things and contemporary standards I did expect that the quality and standards that manufacturers,house dwellers , designers and arcitects demand and expect.

Yes we do enjoy our new life to the full and Iam sure the paints will fade and mellow to an amazing old girl .Cared for loved and cherished.

Yet she is still fresh and new, and with all ladies, she deserves the best treatment and pampering off her man and partner..

Matching hand bags and shoes sort of a thing.

 

A new chapter in our life and 98% of the time an amazing journey.

[Timleech]

International are not some tinpot supplier of paints to 'the barge industry', they are a major player in boat paints and part of a multinational outfit.

If I have a complaint about their products (apart from the price) it is that the colour range is too limited. I wanted a red which fell (into a big gap) between two of their colours so I bought a tin of each and mixed them

 

I agree that another shade can look just as good as a close match.

 

Tim

[OldGoldy]

I think you will find that 'heritage' colours are used not only on (some) boats, but on 'old' restored cars/trucks/tractors, in 'old' restored houses and on 'old' restored railwaylocos and rolling stock. These colours are accepted to be outside the BS and RAL schemes, I would think, with the blessing of the creators of those standards in 'special applications'

 

In any case you may find that a gloss paint colour conforms to a particular standard, BS or RAL, but the 'same' colour in say, vinyl coated cloth, because it is not a gloss finish, will relect less light and appear a different colour, depending on how you view it!

[carlt]

 

I am learning that the barge industry is some what antiquated and traditional in its view points.

 

You are a master of understatement.

[Greedyheron]

Not sure if this would work. Ive been using the paint colour mixing service at home base to try out paint colours as jotun do bs and ral numbers but only sell 5l tins- gets expensive! So having taught some staff at the local home base how to get thier machine to mix me a pot paint to a ral number I now use thier tester pots. (In fairness most of the staff are great, just a few had no idea what a ral was).

 

But they told me that they can scan a sample of paint/ anything coloured and the machine will replicate it. Don't know if the machine will tell you the ratio of different colours that make that shade- but it might.

 

If it did could you then ask other companies to mix thier paints/dyes to that ratio ?

[Grace and Favour]

Craftmaster Paints will do you excellent colour matches with their paints

[woodjam]

Yes international top lac are part of akzo Noble a very large European company.

As such conformity shoulde be a mantra of the company.

 

 

Why dont boaters use Coach paints is there a technical reason for it or is it a traditional thing,

[David Mack]

Standard paint colours are just a basic range. Most paint manufacturers do the standard colours plus a range of their own shades. Its all part of the battle to attract customers from their competitors. If you want standard colours you have to check which of the range are the standard shades before you buy.

[dor]

If you buy wallpaper from the biggest manufacturers in the world, you would still check the batch numbers matched on the rolls wouldn't you?

 

If you wanted to match exactly the colour of different types of paint, wouldn't you check that they are to a standardised colour? First?

 

Sorry, but I think your criticism of Toplac paints is unwarranted.

[kitman]

Yes international top lac are part of akzo Noble a very large European company.

As such conformity shoulde be a mantra of the company.

All the marine paint companys produce a range of 'house' colours. Those colours aren't related to a BS or RAL standard. It's unfortunate, but it is the norm.

 

Why dont boaters use Coach paints is there a technical reason for it or is it a traditional thing,

 

Certain suppliers of branded paint will mix paint to a BS or RAL. International aren't one of them, again this is unfortunate.

 

Coach Paint is the generic term for most synthetic alkyd paint, so International Toplac falls under this heading.

 

 

[Guest]

Yes international top lac are part of akzo Noble a very large European company.

As such conformity shoulde be a mantra of the company.

 

 

Why dont boaters use Coach paints is there a technical reason for it or is it a traditional thing,

Many different paints are used on canal boats! I used International house paint on ours which I like. When we bought our previous boat it had a nice shade of light blue on the cabin, for which I found a tin of touch up in the gas locker. Turned out to be Hammerite garage door enamel which had not only lasted well from its previous repaint some years earlier, but rubbed down well and overpainted with International without problems. Many years ago I had a 5 litre tin of Joseph Mason wagon coach paint which was beautiful stuff, and I painted my van with it, as well as the house. I would paint a boat with that anytime if I still had it; best paint I have ever used, and brushed out to a glass smooth finish.

[OldGoldy]

Yes international top lac are part of akzo Noble a very large European company.

As such conformity shoulde be a mantra of the company.

 

 

Why dont boaters use Coach paints is there a technical reason for it or is it a traditional thing,

 

Conformity - they do 'conform' to the requirements of their customers, by producing a standard range and a specialist range. Do keep up!

 

Boaters usually DO use coach paints, but some hire companies use epoxy paint.

[kitman]

In any case you may find that a gloss paint colour conforms to a particular standard, BS or RAL, but the 'same' colour in say, vinyl coated cloth, because it is not a gloss finish, will relect less light and appear a different colour, depending on how you view it!

 

+1

[Higgs]

After having applied the second coat of the topcoat colour on one particular boat, the customer came to visit. Seeing the boat, the customer swore blind it was the wrong green. It was the one they'd chosen. The customer could not be convinced. So, I nipped back to the workshop and picked three greens, opened and mixed a shade lighter and one darker than the shade they had settled on plus the one they had settled on, the one I'd painted the boat with..

 

I asked the customer to pick the one they thought I'd used and the one they think they'd settled on. Respectively, they picked the one lighter than they'd asked for to indicate the one they think I used, and picked one green darker than their selected to indicate the one they thought they had originally wanted.

 

I continued to paint the boat in the darker green, the one that suited their perception of the one they originally did choose. The problem stemmed from their choice of green against the white background of the colour card; making the green they chose seem darker than it actually was. An illusion, but the environment and light can also produce changes.

 

Unless they asked specifically, I never helped the customer choose their colours. It's so subjective, and a can of worms.

Edited June 29, 2013 by Higgs

[Chris Pink]

Paint always looks lighter on large panels than on swatches. lots

 

As for the OP. if you wanted BS matching then you were a bit of a numpty not to specify it on the first product you chose. a fairly elementary mistake and International's customer service is top[ notch if they didn't laugh at you when you asked for a refund.

 

as for spending another £5k on rectifying your mistake. if that's an option you obviously have more money than you know what to do with so go for it.

 

 

 

...

Edited June 29, 2013 by Chris Pink

[DHutch]

I have to say, the mistake made here was in not checking that you could get accessories matched to the paint colour of choice before applying the paint.

 

That said, I would also not have thought shotblasting the lot of and starting from scratch would be required to change the colour of the boat, particularly if the new colour is similar to the old.

 

If I have a complaint about their products it is that the colour range is too limited.

If i'm not mistaken, they fairly recently ditched a very large number of the colours they previously offered as part of a recent take over and accompanying rationalisation. The previous range was quite sizable.

 

 

 

Daniel

[Higgs]

I have to say, the mistake made here was in not checking that you could get accessories matched to the paint colour of choice before applying the paint.

 

That said, I would also not have thought shotblasting the lot of and starting from scratch would be required to change the colour of the boat, particularly if the new colour is similar to the old.

 

If i'm not mistaken, they fairly recently ditched a very large number of the colours they previously offered as part of a recent take over and accompanying rationalisation. The previous range was quite sizable.

 

 

 

Daniel

 

I liked International's Brightside and not so much their Toplac. But, they do have a limited colour choice. Probably more suited to the yachting fraternity.

[Chris Pink]

My impression is that Toplac has changed in the last few years and not is much the same as any other spirit based enamel. Previous to that it smelt different, wouldn't skin over in the tin and was a most lovely paint to apply. Now there seems to be little difference to any other paint (apart from the price). Whether it's because of EU regulations of some additive in the old formula I don't know...

 

...but it ain't what it used to be...

[Higgs]

My impression is that Toplac has changed in the last few years and not is much the same as any other spirit based enamel. Previous to that it smelt different, wouldn't skin over in the tin and was a most lovely paint to apply. Now there seems to be little difference to any other paint (apart from the price). Whether it's because of EU regulations of some additive in the old formula I don't know...

 

...but it ain't what it used to be...

 

Think I stopped painting before the EU had any effect on the paints and the VOC's content. There was also change afoot to require the use of Hook-Its. Unfortunate, I always used Stick-Its on the orbital. Stick-Its were a little more difficult to persuade to stick in the cold, though.

 

Was never a big fan of Toplac, I didn't use it alot, and probably didn't give it the chance to 'shine'.