Fuel charges

[BargeeSpud]

 

You're right that the purchaser is legally responsible for the declaration, but wrong that it's illegal for supplier to sell only at the 60/40 split. At the time the tax was being introduced, people asked HMRC about these retailers. They said it was up to them -- and that if you wanted to declare a different split it was up to you to buy your fuel elsewhere. If you search some of the threads at the time, you'll find this mentioned a few dozen times.

 

No, I'm not wrong. It was made very clear to me that it was the legal responsibility of the purchaser to declare the split & any supplier enforcing a split on a purchaser was technically acting illegally by deciding HMRC revenue when they are not entitled in law to do so. Suppliers of fuels to boaters are collectors of revenue due, not determiners of revenue due. In other words, only HMRC has the power in law to determine the revenue that is due on any transaction, no one else.

Edited June 18, 2013 by Spuds

[mayalld]

 

No, I'm not wrong. It was made very clear to me that it was the legal responsibility of the purchaser to declare the split & any supplier enforcing a split on a purchaser was technically acting illegally by deciding HMRC revenue when they are not entitled in law to do so. Suppliers of fuels to boaters are collectors of revenue due, not determiners of revenue due. In other words, only HMRC has the power in law to determine the revenue that is due on any transaction, no one else.

 

And notwithstanding that, they are NOT acting illegally.

 

They are simply chosing not to supply customers who want something other than a 60:40 split.

 

No different to the RDCOs who don't supply any split because they don't supply for marine use.

 

Unless you contend that there is a supplier who is FORCING boaters to buy from him rather than take their business elsewhere.

[adam1uk]

 

No, I'm not wrong. It was made very clear to me that it was the legal responsibility of the purchaser to declare the split & any supplier enforcing a split on a purchaser was technically acting illegally by deciding HMRC revenue when they are not entitled in law to do so. Suppliers of fuels to boaters are collectors of revenue due, not determiners of revenue due. In other words, only HMRC has the power in law to determine the revenue that is due on any transaction, no one else.

 

You are wrong. The supplier is not forcing a split on you, because they're not forcing you to buy the fuel from them. If you don't like the terms they're offering, buy elsewhere.

[mango]

If the hire company are suggesting that the fuel will be "about 10p less than supermarket price" then that suggests that they are going to charge you about £1.30 a litre, which is the full propulsion price.

 

At a typical price of 1.30 propulsion/ 0.90 base, a 60:40 split works out at £1.14 per litre,

 

So I would fill up before returning the boat. Of course, you might think that a 30:70 split is more appropriate to your usage...

That was my thought. I'm a warm weather boater when I hire boats, so I very rarely use heating. If I was hiring out of season I might not be too happy with this arrangement.

[BargeeSpud]

 

You are wrong. The supplier is not forcing a split on you, because they're not forcing you to buy the fuel from them. If you don't like the terms they're offering, buy elsewhere.

 

You are indulging in semantics. The fact that a supplier chooses to enforce a 60/40 split as a condition of sale IS technically illegal. Whether a prospective buyer chooses to accept that, is irrelevant to that particular point. As an aside, I refered to an individual's choice of whether to buy or not, in my second post.

 

I'm going to leave this discussion there as I've nothing more to add to the facts, as I know them to be, that I've already presented. I have no desire to degrade this thread into a slanging match, so I'll just have to agree to disagree with those of the opposite opinion to mine & I hope those of you in that camp will take the same view.

 

Nearly time to finish work anyway, so see you all tomorrow.

[nicknorman]

 

You are indulging in semantics.

The law is all about semantics! Suggest you bring a civil action against a marina who sells only 60:40 and see how you get on.

[alan_fincher]

 

No, I'm not wrong.

Sorry, I have long since been persuaded that you are wrong, however daft that might seem.

 

I believe Dave Mayall and Adam are correct, not the least because it has actually been raised with HMRC, and answers received that support thir interpretation.

 

Bonkers though it is, a supplier can say they will sell the fuel, but only to people requiring to buy it at a 60/40 split - if you are not comfortable with such a declaration, then the onus is on you to find an alternate supplier prepared to do a deal with you at your chosen split.

 

They are not acting illegally, (even technically illegally), by saying they will only sell to people who think their split is 60/40.

 

The best way to discourage such inflexible suppliers is simply to try and find one that isn't!

[adam1uk]

Sorry, I have long since been persuaded that you are wrong, however daft that might seem.

 

I believe Dave Mayall and Adam are correct, not the least because it has actually been raised with HMRC, and answers received that support thir interpretation.

 

Bonkers though it is, a supplier can say they will sell the fuel, but only to people requiring to buy it at a 60/40 split - if you are not comfortable with such a declaration, then the onus is on you to find an alternate supplier prepared to do a deal with you at your chosen split.

 

They are not acting illegally, (even technically illegally), by saying they will only sell to people who think their split is 60/40.

 

The best way to discourage such inflexible suppliers is simply to try and find one that isn't!

 

Alan is spot on. When this first came about, some people complained to HMRC about sellers only selling at the 60/40 split. HMRC said they were perfectly within their rights, and if you don't like it, go elsewhere.

 

If you don't believe us, try a complaint to HMRC yourself, and see how you get on. Let us know the result.

[Jerra]

 

 

HMRC said they were perfectly within their rights, and if you don't like it, go elsewhere.

.

Never having come across this fixed split problem do they tell you before the fuel is in the tank? Other wise you can't take your business elsewhere.

[alan_fincher]

.

Never having come across this fixed split problem do they tell you before the fuel is in the tank? Other wise you can't take your business elsewhere.

 

I would hope that if a supplier was only prepared to do business on the basis of a 60/40 split that it was made clear to you, (either by a displayed sign or verbally) before any fuel went into your tank.

 

Personally although I generally do declare 60/40, I refuse to do business with any outlet that will only do 60/40.

[nicknorman]

.

Never having come across this fixed split problem do they tell you before the fuel is in the tank? Other wise you can't take your business elsewhere.

 

Certainly the few that I have seen do advertise the limitation, or to put it another way, never been caught out by someone who had a fixed split but didn't advertise it. I think once they had fuelled you without telling you they had a fixed split, they probably couldn't force you to pay for a split you didn't want. The fallout from that is why those that do fix, advertise it prominently.

[smithwrecker]

No, they don't always declare what split they will "allow". Last year I filled up at a hire base after nearly running out a couple of hours earlier, and had to buy 40l from a local petrol station at FULL duty(white) I then filled up at this hire base, no signs, no mention of any split whilst filling. I then went into the office to pay, was asked what split, I stated 90/10 as I'd just bought white at full duty, no amount of argument, reason or discussion would sway the little jobs worth from his 60/40 split......so I simply instructed him to remove his fuel from my tank!! Or take my payment at 90/10 or I was leaving and he was quite at liberty to call the police. He took my payment.

[Paul C]

 

Not what I was told by a large hire operator. They said that each month, HMRC sent them a notification of what split their should use -- it varied with the seasons, and depending on whether the boat had gas or diesel heating. They told me that the propulsion part never went above 50 per cent, even in the summer.

 

I didn't question it, it was just something mentioned whilst buying some fuel. I suspect that communications between individual hire firms and HMRC are between them, and wouldn't necessarily be published on the internet etc. I'll ask again how they come up with the split they pay for their own boats. It might simply be that "head office" have told them the split, for example.

[FredW]

Hi,

Our solution to all this was to only hire from companies that included fuel in the hire cost. Why have a hidden cost at the end of your holiday?There are good hire companies that don't have a surcharge. Google is your friend. Simples.

Fred.

[mango]

Hi,

Our solution to all this was to only hire from companies that included fuel in the hire cost. Why have a hidden cost at the end of your holiday?There are good hire companies that don't have a surcharge. Google is your friend. Simples.

Fred.

Nowadays I wait until late booking discounts are available and make allowance for whether a company charges for diesel when comparing prices. The introduction of duty in 2008? has meant that many companies now charge, but the availability of late discounts is now better than it ever has been.

[mayalld]

 

You are indulging in semantics. The fact that a supplier chooses to enforce a 60/40 split as a condition of sale IS technically illegal. Whether a prospective buyer chooses to accept that, is irrelevant to that particular point. As an aside, I refered to an individual's choice of whether to buy or not, in my second post.

 

You keep on with the "technically illegal" mantra, yet there is no basis upon which it is illegal.

 

Yes, it is for the buyer to make a declaration, and by logical extension it is for the buyer to determine whether the vendor sells what he wishes to buy. If he wants to buy 70/30, and the vendor doesn't sell it, he goes elsewhere.

 

However, in the hope that it might actually be possible to dislodge this idea that seems to have firmly lodged itself in your head, this is what HMRC say about fixed splits

 

 

 

Private pleasure craft owners who wish to continue to use red diesel are now under a legal obligation to make a declaration, in respect of that intended for propulsion, at the point of purchase.

 

We are aware that some suppliers have chosen to supply diesel on this fixed basis, in order to minimise administrative burdens. That is a commercial decision for them and perfectly legal. In these circumstances, it is for the user to decide whether the apportionment offered by the supplier is appropriate for them; if it is not, they should not make a declaration to that effect because it would be false. The customer should instead purchase their fuel from a supplier who is willing/able to accommodate the varying apportionment rates of different customers.

 

 

Compare and contrast their use of the term "perfectly legal" with your use of "technically illegal"

[Graham Davis]

"Technically illegal" is a meaninless statement.

Something is either illegal or it isn't.

[Mibosa]

So after reading all the replies, what does an Aussie need to know when coming over very soon to hire a canal boat for two weeks, about using and paying for fuel? Please, if you wish to, just respond to mibosa52@tpg.com.au, otherwise use this site. I have paid up front for the hire and am understanding that I need to cover fuel costs at the end but would certainly appreciate any further advice.

[Paul C]

Which hire firm?

[ditchcrawler]

So after reading all the replies, what does an Aussie need to know when coming over very soon to hire a canal boat for two weeks, about using and paying for fuel? Please, if you wish to, just respond to mibosa52@tpg.com.au, otherwise use this site. I have paid up front for the hire and am understanding that I need to cover fuel costs at the end but would certainly appreciate any further advice.

Some companies still include it in the overall hire cost.

[Flyboy]

Anglowelsh include fuel in the price so you don't get any nasty shocks when you take the boat back.

[Mibosa]

Which hire firm?

Black Prince and as I understand it when the boat is returned they will fill it up and charge me for the amount used. At this stage I don't know how far we will travel, or how much we will use, but just interested to know anything incase I need to refuel along the way. Thanks.

[Paul C]

If you know the area, then you could phone around marinas in the local area to see what they charge for diesel (including the declared split). And also ask Black Prince what split they'd expect you to declare. By all means if its cheaper at the marina down the canal, you could fill up on the way home.

[Flyboy]

Black Prince and as I understand it when the boat is returned they will fill it up and charge me for the amount used. At this stage I don't know how far we will travel, or how much we will use, but just interested to know anything incase I need to refuel along the way. Thanks.

Most hire boats carry enough fuel for 2 weeks cruising ( say 100hrs )

[ditchcrawler]

Most hire boats carry enough fuel for 2 weeks cruising ( say 100hrs )

and I expect they will charge on a 60/40 split so probably about £1 35 ish per Lt.