Would I need a traders licence?

[Ange]

No, I wasn't sure if selling something small that is more of a hobby would be requiring the traders licence, nor could I find out details about the actual licence so asked on here, and now know what I needed to know.

 

 

I think one or two diesel boats might make a meagre living, but otherwise almost all roving traders are doing it as a "self financing hobby", If you plan to get rich then this is not the way to do it!,

 

..............Dave

This is the problem - there's a very fine line between people scratching a living a people doing it for a hobby, and the hobby trader may be in competition with the former category. There's a big discount in place if you're below the VAT threshhold which recognises that you're not making oodles of money.

 

The risk of just seeing if you can get away with it is that you will have angry fellow traders who are paying their way if you are in competition with them. I'm pretty sure setting up a stall in front of your boat still counts, though you won't have the insurance implications that you would if you have the public boarding.

 

Look at the different licence fees on the CRT website and phone CRT to see if you can change from a leisure to a trading licence mid year would be my advice.

[Jerra]

Slightly linked but probably a bit off topic. A major problem of traders v hobbyist is hobbyists tend to under mine the value of craft/hand work and its skills. Hobbyists tend to only charge for materials and not time etc. IMO after 20+ years involved in a business selling hand made items such "trade" undermines the true value of the skills of the worker.

 

People used to buying "craft" from hobbyists begin to expect it to be cheap. A skill worker hobbyist or professional should be entitled to renumeration commensurate with their skills/knowledge.

 

Rant over

[dmr]

Slightly linked but probably a bit off topic. A major problem of traders v hobbyist is hobbyists tend to under mine the value of craft/hand work and its skills. Hobbyists tend to only charge for materials and not time etc. IMO after 20+ years involved in a business selling hand made items such "trade" undermines the true value of the skills of the worker.

 

People used to buying "craft" from hobbyists begin to expect it to be cheap. A skill worker hobbyist or professional should be entitled to renumeration commensurate with their skills/knowledge.

 

Rant over

Yes and no!

There are lots of people about who will paint roses and castles almost for free, but Dave Moore and Phil Speight are still in demand.

If we charged a "proper" hourly rate for the stuff that Gillie makes then we would sell very little. Shops can sell stuff that they get from China for less than a small trader here would have to pay for the raw materials. The supermarkets sell stuff at a loss to put the local greengrocer out of business. .

Sadly there is very little connection between what you deserve and what the capitalist world will let you have!

 

............Dave

[Caprifool]

When I wrote to them asking the same question. They replied I would need what they called a "Low turnover trading license" Which cost only marginally more than the regular leisure license.

[Jerra]

Yes and no!

There are lots of people about who will paint roses and castles almost for free, but Dave Moore and Phil Speight are still in demand.

If we charged a "proper" hourly rate for the stuff that Gillie makes then we would sell very little. Shops can sell stuff that they get from China for less than a small trader here would have to pay for the raw materials. The supermarkets sell stuff at a loss to put the local greengrocer out of business. .

Sadly there is very little connection between what you deserve and what the capitalist world will let you have!

 

............Dave

Your comparisions aren't quite correct for the example I give. A bit like comparing apples to oranges. Hand made british work is only compared to hand made british work. The public aren't daft enough to compare third world craft to british craft (well the majority aren't in my experience).

 

As long as a hobbyist (or anyone else for that matter) sells too cheaply those of us who don't will struggle, if all who sell the result of their skills charged correctly it would sell (does sell but not as well as it should). (As I said we have been involved with selling at the correct price for 20+ years)

[cotswoldsman]

The average Low Turnover Licence is below £40

I think as a Trader you can declare all your diesel at 100% Non Propulsion (not sure where I got that from so maybe wrong)

 

Edited to add that the threshold for Low Turnover is £70,000 and out of the over 200 Trading Licences issued only 2 do not qualify for the Low Turnover Discount (Coal and Diesel Boats excluded as they have a different licence)

Edited May 31, 2013 by cotswoldsman

[scrumpylurcher]

You can get your diesel VAT free (this is nothing to do with CRT), as a trader you are not supposed to put goods out on the towpath, they should be displayed on the boat. As regards pricing work, whilst I would love to feel that I could earn say the minimum hourly rate, you soon learn there is a price beyond which people will not generally buy. I trade on my work being all made by me - I do not buy things in, and the quality of my workmanship. I am aware that most people have budgets, they will pay extra because its hand made and I am there to explain the work involved but that extra does not always equate to time put in. I biggest objection is people who sell regularly at a price less than the material cost of the item. Most of my work is woodwork or wood turning - over the years I have had several conversations with people who are obviously skilled woodworkers - I am quite pleased by the comments they invariably finish with. That is basically in their opinion I am charging a fair price for what I am selling.

[Hastings]

Even if you decide to break the rules and not get a trading licence, third party insurance is critical. Someone was selling home-made wine and cider from their boat close to us the other day - what would happen if they poisoned someone, or the person had an anaphylactic reaction to one of the ingredients? Apart from the fact that this boat didn't have a trading licence, and almost certainly (as it's CCing) wouldn't be licensed to sell alcohol, the insurance is important for self-protection. One smallish personal injury claim could bankrupt you.

 

Going on to CRT licensing, the cost for most people to get the right trading licence is well under £2 a week, a paltry amount really when you consider the equivalent costs of running any bricks and mortar shop. It really is irrelevant whether you are selling lots or a little - the licence gives you the right to sell as much as you like. Not to have a licence is like saying to the local authority (with a bricks and mortar shop) "I'm not paying business rates because my sales level won't even cover the amount of the rates". See how sympathetic the council will be!

 

The traders licence gives you the right to sell - why would CRT be interested in how much you sell?

[cotswoldsman]

Someone was selling home-made wine and cider from their boat close to us the other day

 

saw a boat in Audlem doing the same must say it smelt pretty bad!!!

[luctor et emergo]

Do you really think the insurance will pay out a claim by an unlicenced boat, selling home made wine? ?

 

[Grace and Favour]

Do you really think the insurance will pay out a claim by an unlicenced boat, selling home made wine? ?

 

I do a rather cheeky line in flavoured meths, - raspberry, chilli, black cherry and smoked oak flavours

Are you suggesting I've wasted my insurance premiums?

[dmr]

You can get your diesel VAT free (this is nothing to do with CRT), as a trader you are not supposed to put goods out on the towpath, they should be displayed on the boat. As regards pricing work, whilst I would love to feel that I could earn say the minimum hourly rate, you soon learn there is a price beyond which people will not generally buy. I trade on my work being all made by me - I do not buy things in, and the quality of my workmanship. I am aware that most people have budgets, they will pay extra because its hand made and I am there to explain the work involved but that extra does not always equate to time put in. I biggest objection is people who sell regularly at a price less than the material cost of the item. Most of my work is woodwork or wood turning - over the years I have had several conversations with people who are obviously skilled woodworkers - I am quite pleased by the comments they invariably finish with. That is basically in their opinion I am charging a fair price for what I am selling.

 

That sounds rather better than the potential customers who screw their faces up and say "I'm not paying £20 for that, you made it yourself, I can get a proper one in the shops for that price"

 

...........Dave

 

Do note that the trading insurance provided at low cost by your existing insurer is really only an extension to your public liability cover, not quite sure exactly what it does cover but it excludes product liability!

 

.............Dave

[Hastings]

Do you really think the insurance will pay out a claim by an unlicenced boat, selling home made wine? ?

 

Good point! In fact, the insurance company will require all licensing to be in place, so they probably won't cover you if you haven't got a CRT traders licence, let alone alcohol licence, and, if you make it yourself, local authority Environmental Health approval.

 

And a further point. Check your boat insurance if you are trading and haven't told your insurer - there might be a clause invalidating the policy?

Edited May 31, 2013 by Hastings

[Strads]

I agree with luctor and the obvious,,

 

If CRT have terms and conditions then they are there, ignoring them will probably Piss them off and put you on the wrong side re future goodwill,

 

Have you actually phone them for a chat and explained the details??

They will probably advise you on the best option, and you might get a chance to negotiate a limited licence...

 

As ever a number of folks think its fine to ignore the rules and regs, and wonder why CRT then impose rule changes "they" don't like,

in most cases re don't suit them, how ever would benefit a larger user group, which they don't take into the bigger picture,,

[MtB]

Surely if the OP trades from a table on the towpath, there is no impact whatever on the type of boat license he needs. Maybe a street trader's license or something similar is needed instead. Does anyone here actually know what would be needed?

 

And regarding the comparison with a driving license, he is hardly going to kill anyone with a tableful of canalware is he??

 

 

MtB

 

 

Edit to add:

Damn, caught ought again replying to the last post on page 1, only to find a whole nother page of responses I didn't spot first!

Edited May 31, 2013 by Mike the Boilerman

[sassan]

Depending on where you are, you may be able to get a peddler's licence.

 

I can't remember if they're per town/city or per county, but they're dirt cheap.

 

If you're moving around a lot between areas then it might not be worthwhile to have a license in each place, but if you have a mooring and want to trade near it then this could be what you need. I seem to remember it being £9 per year in one place I looked at and £12 in another, could be wrong though.

 

In theory you have to move on every couple of hours (I think it's a couple of hours, not sure). In practise, you have to move on when a policeman asks you to. This concept should be familiar to most of us .

[Hastings]

Surely if the OP trades from a table on the towpath, there is no impact whatever on the type of boat license he needs. Maybe a street trader's license or something similar is needed instead. Does anyone here actually know what would be needed?

 

And regarding the comparison with a driving license, he is hardly going to kill anyone with a tableful of canalware is he??

 

 

MtB

 

 

Edit to add:

Damn, caught ought again replying to the last post on page 1, only to find a whole nother page of responses I didn't spot first!

But you're not allowed by CRT to trade on the towpath!

[Caprifool]

Last time I checked a few months ago, pedlars cert was £12 yearly and valid nationally. Just walk in to the nearest police station and pay up.

[BudgetBus]

Last time I checked a few months ago, pedlars cert was £12 yearly and valid nationally. Just walk in to the nearest police station and pay up.

You need a cert to ride a push bike?

[Caprifool]

iPad spellcheck :-/

[Capt Ahab]

I just converted to a roving traders license to let us sell preserves at festivals. The CRT were very helpful and were genuinely interested / supportive about the project. The cost was about £60 more than my private licence which seems reasonable all things considered. CRT have even featured us in their advertising and allowed us to forage on the towpaths. The bottom line is that the CRT own the network (water and towpath) and if we want to live and trade on the waterways whats the point of trying to avoid following the rules. Far better to go with the flow in my opinion.

[BudgetBus]

iPad spellcheck :-/

Or just my poor humour lol

[MtB]

I just converted to a roving traders license to let us sell preserves at festivals. The CRT were very helpful and were genuinely interested / supportive about the project. The cost was about £60 more than my private licence which seems reasonable all things considered. CRT have even featured us in their advertising and allowed us to forage on the towpaths. The bottom line is that the CRT own the network (water and towpath) and if we want to live and trade on the waterways whats the point of trying to avoid following the rules. Far better to go with the flow in my opinion.

 

I agree with you if the extra cost is just £60. This seems very fair. Were there other conditions leading to further costs, like special insurance?

 

MtB

[scrumpylurcher]

For most traders , once you can persuade the insurance company, the cost is negligible and it is an addition to your existing policy not an all singing all dancing traders policy. It purely relates to public liability. If you ring and ask for a quote for a small traders policy as I did I was quoted £650, using advice from a fellow trader, the same company charged me about £15 to amend my existing policy, this was a one off charge.

If you are trading food stuffs, selling drinks or similar you will also need hygiene certificates, if people come on your boat to view your products you require more comprehensive insurance. There are several things that could increase your start up costs depending on what you are trading in. As has already been said this insurance is purely public liability, it has nothing to do with the products you sell.

I would also add that I found CRT very helpful in obtaining my licence, because of the complicated discount system, I found it impossible to follow their paperwork. I didn't experience it, but other people have suggested that CRT were selective about who and what they were prepared to licence. That was not my experience.

I think that you are far more likely to be reported as a non licenced trader by another trader than to be questioned by CRT.

[Caprifool]

Or just my poor humour lol

A healthy mix of both.