Stern steelwork modification advice please!

[Hartlebury lad]

Hi all - my first post- please treat accordingly!

 

We have just taken ownership of our first boat - a 1996 Evans and sons 55ft trad. It's in great shape and apart from some initial teething issues, we are looking forward to a lot of happy days on the canals.

 

The only compromise/reservation I had on purchase is the engine bay access, particularly to the weed hatch deep in the bowels of the boat. I will have little chance of getting my substantial frame in that deep recess (Snow Whites mates would struggle too) particularly with a hot engine in poor light.

 

I am considering getting an access hatch cut in the floor of the rear deck to get at it from above - sacrilege yes, but I have to be practical. Also, I am thinking of modifying the steelwork in the engine bay to allow easier servicing work (mechanics have grumbled already and having tried to do stuff myself i can see why!) I thought of cutting the angle iron bars that supports all the timber panels and getting holed brackets welded with maybe wing nuts for simler access?

 

Has anyone any advice to offer- what to look out for, etc and also if anyone can recommend a good 'un to do the work? I am on the Llangollen. Cheers folks.

 

 

[nicknorman]

Hi all - my first post- please treat accordingly!

 

We have just taken ownership of our first boat - a 1996 Evans and sons 55ft trad. It's in great shape and apart from some initial teething issues, we are looking forward to a lot of happy days on the canals.

 

The only compromise/reservation I had on purchase is the engine bay access, particularly to the weed hatch deep in the bowels of the boat. I will have little chance of getting my substantial frame in that deep recess (Snow Whites mates would struggle too) particularly with a hot engine in poor light.

 

I am considering getting an access hatch cut in the floor of the rear deck to get at it from above - sacrilege yes, but I have to be practical. Also, I am thinking of modifying the steelwork in the engine bay to allow easier servicing work (mechanics have grumbled already and having tried to do stuff myself i can see why!) I thought of cutting the angle iron bars that supports all the timber panels and getting holed brackets welded with maybe wing nuts for simler access?

 

Has anyone any advice to offer- what to look out for, etc and also if anyone can recommend a good 'un to do the work? I am on the Llangollen. Cheers folks.

 

With regard to the rear deck hatch, you need to consider how you will deal with water ingress / drainage. We have such a hatch and its surrounded by /rests on steel channel to catch water. The channel is of course below the level of the deck so the drainage is connected by steel pipe into the weed hatch just below the top (but above the water line of course). Seems a neat solution to me.

 

If you have a fuel tank in the counter, try not to cut into it when you are making the hatch!

[alan_fincher]

We have an Evans & Son "trad" only a year older, so I know what you are talking about.

 

However, have you considered that if you are trying to access the prop from rear deck level, just how far below you both prop and prop-shaft are likely to be?

The best arrangements to me seem to be the type of hinged rear deck panels that not only open up a hole, but actually lift way any obstruction below the back doors, such as whatever "lip" the doors themselves would normally close against, but this might be hard to introduce into a boat not already designed for it.

 

Have you had much need to go "down the weed hatch"? We do a lot of miles with our Evans & Son boat each year, including regularly into to London or Birmingham, and if we had to remove the weed hatch more than two or three times in a year, I would say it is unusual. (But "yes", you do need to be a contortionist if you do - I send my son under, if available on that trip!)

[ditchcrawler]

We have an Evans & Son "trad" only a year older, so I know what you are talking about.

 

However, have you considered that if you are trying to access the prop from rear deck level, just how far below you both prop and prop-shaft are likely to be?

 

The best arrangements to me seem to be the type of hinged rear deck panels that not only open up a hole, but actually lift way any obstruction below the back doors, such as whatever "lip" the doors themselves would normally close against, but this might be hard to introduce into a boat not already designed for it.

 

Have you had much need to go "down the weed hatch"? We do a lot of miles with our Evans & Son boat each year, including regularly into to London or Birmingham, and if we had to remove the weed hatch more than two or three times in a year, I would say it is unusual. (But "yes", you do need to be a contortionist if you do - I send my son under, if available on that trip!)

I have a friend who had this done to his boat, back deck hinges up, made the world of difference foe access

[Kae]

Dili is an Evans & Sons hull, exactly the same layout here too!

 

I gave serious consideration to getting a hatch put in, but on balance I decided that the extra water ingress wasn't worth it (for me that is).

[nicknorman]

Dili is an Evans & Sons hull, exactly the same layout here too!

 

I gave serious consideration to getting a hatch put in, but on balance I decided that the extra water ingress wasn't worth it (for me that is).

 

However, if properly executed, there is no water ingress.

[Kae]

However, if properly executed, there is no water ingress.

 

On balance on whether I was going to be lucky enough to have it done properly, or whether it was going to be done badly and a "they all do that sir" excuse, I decided not to

[Ray T]

With regard to weed hatch access is this the idea you were considering?

 

 

Our boat has a Reeves hull and the access hatch is as built.

 

I did however put the drainage pipe in as the bow up attitude caused water to sit in the channel as the drain away is just out sight at the bottom of the picture as you look at the photo.

 

Since taking the photo I have rerouted the drainage pipe to a skin fitting

Edited April 30, 2013 by Ray T

[ditchcrawler]

However, if properly executed, there is no water ingress.

correct

[bottle]

My shell (Tyler, Wilson or Wilson, Tyler) came with the stern deck hatch and that is enclosed right down to the uxter plate.

 

Impossible to sink the boat even if the cavitation plate is replaced wrongly.

 

You do need long arms though, to reach the prop.

[nicknorman]

With regard to weed hatch access is this the idea you were considering?

 

 

 

Our boat has a Reeves hull and the access hatch is as built.

 

I did however put the drainage pipe in as the bow up attitude caused water to sit in the channel as the drain away is just out sight at the bottom of the picture as you look at the photo.

 

Since taking the photo I have rerouted the drainage pipe to a skin fitting

 

As a minor design point, I would do it as per our Hudson boat, whereby there are two pipes, one each side, so that the pipes aren't in the way when grovelling for the poly bags! Here's a photo of our stern in build, you can just about see the two pipes going from the deck hatch into the weed hatch:

[Hartlebury lad]

Thank you all very much so far.

 

I have taken "on board" what has been said by all- really useful and balanced. And the pics are very helpful as I can explain to my wife and also a potential fabricator/welder what I have in mind.

 

Ray- that is what I have in mind. It may be a bit pricey to do it but I see it as the first major necessity. I think with a careful brief, water ingress could be kept to a minimum and managed.

 

I may try to post a pic next week after my next visit to the boat to show the problem. I think Alan knows what I am on about. Frankly one visit under there to try to wrestle with an obstruction will be one too many! The previous owner had some crap wrapped around the prop and after a couple of hours of painful wrestling in a tiny space and bloodied forearms, he stripped down and got into the canal to remove the entanglement. It's a no from me.....

[alan_fincher]

As a minor design point, I would do it as per our Hudson boat, whereby there are two pipes, one each side, so that the pipes aren't in the way when grovelling for the poly bags! Here's a photo of our stern in build, you can just about see the two pipes going from the deck hatch into the weed hatch:

 

 

As a minor design point, I would do it as per our Hudson boat, whereby there are two pipes, one each side, so that the pipes aren't in the way when grovelling for the poly bags! Here's a photo of our stern in build, you can just about see the two pipes going from the deck hatch into the weed hatch:

Out of interest, what is the approximate vertical distance between the top of the rear deck with the hatch in, and the centreline of the prop-shaft.

 

Just how long arms do you need if you actually need to get "hands on" with things on the prop, rather than being able to maybe use something with a handle on to attack what's on it, without necessarily needing to be able to reach right down?

[bottle]

They say a picture says a thousand words, if you look at Nick's picture and imagine the square section of the weed hatch continued up to the stern deck that is what I was lamentably trying to describe.

[alan_fincher]

I think Alan knows what I am on about. Frankly one visit under there to try to wrestle with an obstruction will be one too many! The previous owner had some crap wrapped around the prop and after a couple of hours of painful wrestling in a tiny space and bloodied forearms, he stripped down and got into the canal to remove the entanglement. It's a no from me.....

We have done very large numbers of miles in our Evans & Son boat, and never so far had anything we couldn't get off with a bit of "reaching an arm down and feeling". The problem is you can get into positions where you can look at the prob, and into ones where you can reach it, but it isn't really possible to do both at once.

 

This was one of our best.......

 

 

It proved to be something that is used under mattresses of hospital beds as an aid to emergency evacuation with patients who can't be got quickly out of bed. You just strap your "victim" down, then drag them plus mattress by this very robust construction, and can apparently take them down stairs this way....... The things you learn from canal debris, hey!.......

[nicknorman]

Out of interest, what is the approximate vertical distance between the top of the rear deck with the hatch in, and the centreline of the prop-shaft.

 

Just how long arms do you need if you actually need to get "hands on" with things on the prop, rather than being able to maybe use something with a handle on to attack what's on it, without necessarily needing to be able to reach right down?

 

I'd have to measure it but suffice to say it is a fair way down, made the worse because our 2'8" draft means big prop, means the prop shaft is well down. So you do have to lie on the step/rear deck and have head below chest (never a good position!). However, Jeff who is of normal stature seems to manage it without tools. Though I do get the feeling if I lifted his legs just a bit he would never be seen again...

 

Obviously a factor is the height of the counter above the water line. Ours is "average" I would say, but some boats to have very high counters which would make it unrealistic.

 

The previous boat we used, same builder as Chalice IIRC, was a semi-trad and you got to the weed hatch by lifting the engine boards. Nasty because you have to climb down into the hot engine and grovel in the gap between weed hatch and counter. I much prefer the Hudson way!

 

They say a picture says a thousand words, if you look at Nick's picture and imagine the square section of the weed hatch continued up to the stern deck that is what I was lamentably trying to describe.

 

Yes that does seem a remarkably sensible way of doing it! However, a much harder retrofit.

[Hartlebury lad]

Nick- "The previous boat we used, same builder as Chalice IIRC, was a semi-trad and you got to the weed hatch by lifting the engine boards. Nasty because you have to climb down into the hot engine and grovel in the gap between weed hatch and counter. I much prefer the Hudson way!"

 

 

Exactly! The access problem is compounded by the hot engine and other ancilliary aspects which may take collateral damage when tempers get frayed and frustration and carelessness from fatigue kicks in! I include stuff like wiring, fuel lines, etc etc.

 

I was down there last weekend trying to clean out the nooks and crannies in the bilge following a serious fuel leak. - the aches and pains are still with me and I was using all manner of things such as a pela pump, a mop,pieces of timber with cloths attached, blah de blah. There was lots of "head below chest" stuff going off there!

[David Mack]

Like most ex-working boats we don't have a weed hatch. It is rarely a problem. You just have to have a short shaft with a hook on it. Stop the boat in a bridge hole, narrows, full lock or against a reasonably decent bank. You soon learn how to feel for the prop, shaft and rudder and pull most things off.

[alan_fincher]

Like most ex-working boats we don't have a weed hatch. It is rarely a problem. You just have to have a short shaft with a hook on it. Stop the boat in a bridge hole, narrows, full lock or against a reasonably decent bank. You soon learn how to feel for the prop, shaft and rudder and pull most things off.

Yeah, yeah!

 

So they tell me.

 

I'm getting better, but if you are around when Sickle gets it's next serious blade full, I'll be asking for a tutorial. (Might help if I had ever seen it out of water, but so far I never have).

 

Don't you just love it when you can find a bit of rope, but not with a long enough end to exert any pull on - and why is it whichever way you hand wind the prop shaft, it winds further on, and never off. (I think I do know the answer to that one!.....)

[Maffi]

We have an Evans & Son "trad" only a year older, so I know what you are talking about.

 

However, have you considered that if you are trying to access the prop from rear deck level, just how far below you both prop and prop-shaft are likely to be?

 

The best arrangements to me seem to be the type of hinged rear deck panels that not only open up a hole, but actually lift way any obstruction below the back doors, such as whatever "lip" the doors themselves would normally close against, but this might be hard to introduce into a boat not already designed for it.

 

Have you had much need to go "down the weed hatch"? We do a lot of miles with our Evans & Son boat each year, including regularly into to London or Birmingham, and if we had to remove the weed hatch more than two or three times in a year, I would say it is unusual. (But "yes", you do need to be a contortionist if you do - I send my son under, if available on that trip!)

Yes Ok but you only need one car tyre or a shopping trolly around the prop to make a hatch worth while

[Maffi]

It doesnt matter what people say on here. What do you want to do! I will gaurantee you the first time you pick up a bicycle or an armchair or a shopping trolley you will be glad you did it. There is absolutely no need to go grovelling about under the back deck if you don't have to.

 

Hi all - my first post- please treat accordingly!

 

We have just taken ownership of our first boat - a 1996 Evans and sons 55ft trad. It's in great shape and apart from some initial teething issues, we are looking forward to a lot of happy days on the canals.

 

The only compromise/reservation I had on purchase is the engine bay access, particularly to the weed hatch deep in the bowels of the boat. I will have little chance of getting my substantial frame in that deep recess (Snow Whites mates would struggle too) particularly with a hot engine in poor light.

 

I am considering getting an access hatch cut in the floor of the rear deck to get at it from above - sacrilege yes, but I have to be practical. Also, I am thinking of modifying the steelwork in the engine bay to allow easier servicing work (mechanics have grumbled already and having tried to do stuff myself i can see why!) I thought of cutting the angle iron bars that supports all the timber panels and getting holed brackets welded with maybe wing nuts for simler access?

 

Has anyone any advice to offer- what to look out for, etc and also if anyone can recommend a good 'un to do the work? I am on the Llangollen. Cheers folks.

[pquinn]

if you do heighten the square weed hatch box make sure that the cavitation plate is correctly lenghtened.somebody else will explain this better than i can.