Discovered Boat has no CE Marking / need a lawyer / legal advice

[Arthur Marshall]

There's a raft of daft legislation that affects DIY house maintenance too. The obvious way round THAT is just to lie about when the work was done so that it pre-dates the legislation. Can't you do the same with the boat? If it was built more than five years back it doesn't need all this stuff, as far as I can see. The thing to do with ridiculous laws is a) ignore than and make sure you don't get caught!

[smithwrecker]

My take on this situation would be to explain the situation to the buyer and hope they understand the situation, personally, I think we should all boycott the bl**dy stupid EU RCD rules and sell OUR boats when, how and to whom we like!!! Another option though, put it on hard standing and sell it as a mobile home, NO RCD/CE mark required!!! What the new owner does with it then, I.e. puts it in water and uses it as a boat is up to them. Just my opinion of course.

[Guest]

Hi Stan

 

You are quite right. Thats the problem though isnt it. As usual stupid bloody europe introduces ridiculous legislation and we in the uk jump through the hoops. You are of course right that he may lose this sail but the paperwork is not hard to get retrospectively so all should not be lost. I was intending to say more that he shouldnt worry having offered it for sale even though he shouldnt have I doubt if there will be a SWAT team arriving at his door anytime soon.

 

Tim

Aye true. Plenty of others have done it.

[Bee]

You will have a hell of a job finding out what the requirements of the RCD actually are, they are expensive to obtain and so loosely worded as to be virtualy pointless. The CE marking thing is primarily trading rules and regs and designed to prevent uunfair trading and undercutting. If you really want to CE mark it you can self certify the boat and so long as it has a BSC you can pretty much assume it complies, you will need a manual, write one and when the boat is a few years older just say the dog ate all the paperwork and point to the nice brass plate with CE on it and say it has always been there, this advice will horrify those who try to live by the rules but some rules these days are drafted to be impossible.

[Dominic M]

The RCD (which is effectively a CE mark for a boat) in respect of narrowboats is something of a nonsense, I agree. Firstly, because Category D, into which virtually all narrowboats and fat narrowboats fall, is a matter of self declaration by the builder. The fact is that some boats that are declared compliant by the builder are not. A problem then arises if the buyer decides to sell after, say, 2 years and the prospective buyer brings in a good surveyor (Trevor Whitling for example) who will then highlight these failings. Which is why buying a new boat means that employing the services of a good surveyor who understands the RCD and the associated standards relating to electrics and gas in particular is a very good idea. The idea of the scheme is not so much an appalling piece of EU nonsense foist upon the hapless Brits. We wrote the bulk of the standards for the scheme anyway! The idea was to make sure that the product was built to certain standards. This applies to motor cars and anything else produced for sale in the EU. It means, for example, that the teddy bear you buy for your child does not contain sharp bits of wire that might injure or even blind. Oh, and to the person who mentioned mobile homes, standards certainly apply to their construction to.

 

What is a nonsense is the self declaration. With sea going boats (Cat A and Cat B ) the RCD must be independently assessed. Before the scheme came into operation in 1998 there were some yachts built and sold in the UK that were simply not seaworthy. So it is a good idea in that respect. If the scheme operated properly for canal boats (i.e. independently assessed) then you could rest assured that the electrics were safe, the gas safe, the appliances installed in accordance with the manufacturer's instructions, and etc.

 

A word of warning: the BSC does not have the same standards as the RCD. They are generally stricter. Electrical wiring is one that I know of. To gain a BSC and then self declare the boat compliant with the RCD is folly.

 

Has anyone ever been prosecuted? Yes. A few years ago a man who fitted out a boat sold it without the RCD requirements. It had a BSC. For some reason the buyer brought it to the attention of Trading Standards, who are supposed to police the scheme. It went to court, the builder pleaded ignorance and pointed out that the boat had a BSC. The court fined him £4000 with a further £5000 costs. I shouldn't think he made any profit out of that boat.

 

We may not like the scheme, we may rail against the EU. It is here, and EU or no a standard wil always now be in place. Buyers should ensure that the boat they buy complies. Or buy through a reputable broker who is a member of the BMF or ABYA who is bound by their Code of Conduct to ensure that all is in order. (Am I allowed to say this last bit? :-) )

Edited April 20, 2013 by Dominic M

[Grace and Favour]

Dom,

 

Thank you for a well written and well informed post

[RLWP]

Out of interest Dominic, if someone wanted to sell a self built boat with no RCD, would you broker it?

 

Richard

[Dominic M]

Out of interest Dominic, if someone wanted to sell a self built boat with no RCD, would you broker it?

 

Richard

When I get a call from someone looking to sell a boat that they bought as a sailaway and have fitted out, and now want to sell, I always ask if they have the RCD paperwork and Craft Id No in place (if the craft is less than 5 years old). If they do not, I tell them that they must, explain why, and add that I am happy to put them in touch with a surveyor who can guide them through the process. If the response is, "I can't be arsed with all that EU bollocks," or something similar (and only once out of a number of occasions has this been the case) then I tell them I cannot broker the boat.

 

Not least because I don't want a hapless buyer to end up in the position that the OP now finds him or herself in. I like people to enjoy boating, buy a legitimate boat, and I also like to sleep at night. So the short answer is no.

Edited April 20, 2013 by Dominic M

[Bee]

The BSC has a manual to which an owner or fitter can refer to which at least makes it likely to be adhered to but the RCD requirements for most of us can only be guessed at for they are (or were a year or two ago) secret except for the wealthy. Perhaps things have changed and it is now possible to find the info. on the net. My local library cannot obtain the things now due to cost. I would hazard a guess that theres a lot of boats out there that have the certificates but do not comply with the requirements but are nonetheless perfectly safe. A bad case of bureaucrats making law and deliberately keeping it secret.

[RLWP]

When I get a call from someone looking to sell a boat that they bought as a sailaway and have fitted out, and now want to sell, I always ask if they have the RCD paperwork and Craft Id No in place (if the craft is less than 5 years old). If they do not, I tell them that they must, explain why, and add that I am happy to put them in touch with a surveyor who can guide them through the process. If the response is, "I can't be arsed with all that EU bollocks," or something similar (and only once out of a number of occasions has this been the case) then I tell them I cannot broker the boat.

 

Not least because I don't want a hapless buyer to end up in the position that the OP now finds him or herself in. I like people to enjoy boating, buy a legitimate boat, and I also like to sleep at night. So the short answer is no.

 

Thanks Dominic, that's what I expected.

 

Richard

[Dominic M]

The BSC has a manual to which an owner or fitter can refer to which at least makes it likely to be adhered to but the RCD requirements for most of us can only be guessed at for they are (or were a year or two ago) secret except for the wealthy. Perhaps things have changed and it is now possible to find the info. on the net. My local library cannot obtain the things now due to cost. I would hazard a guess that theres a lot of boats out there that have the certificates but do not comply with the requirements but are nonetheless perfectly safe. A bad case of bureaucrats making law and deliberately keeping it secret.

I entirely agree. It is ridiculous that the ISOs for 240v and low voltage installation on a boat are not freely available, for example. These are safety standards and should be openly available to all. Not hidden away and only for those prepared to cough up money to get sight of them.

[Paul C]

What's getting insurance for a boat with no RCD (that should have one) like?

[Guest]

The RCD (which is effectively a CE mark for a boat) in respect of narrowboats is something of a nonsense, I agree. Firstly, because Category D, into which virtually all narrowboats and fat narrowboats fall, is a matter of self declaration by the builder. The fact is that some boats that are declared compliant by the builder are not. A problem then arises if the buyer decides to sell after, say, 2 years and the prospective buyer brings in a good surveyor (Trevor Whitling for example) who will then highlight these failings. Which is why buying a new boat means that employing the services of a good surveyor who understands the RCD and the associated standards relating to electrics and gas in particular is a very good idea. The idea of the scheme is not so much an appalling piece of EU nonsense foist upon the hapless Brits. We wrote the bulk of the standards for the scheme anyway! The idea was to make sure that the product was built to certain standards. This applies to motor cars and anything else produced for sale in the EU. It means, for example, that the teddy bear you buy for your child does not contain sharp bits of wire that might injure or even blind. Oh, and to the person who mentioned mobile homes, standards certainly apply to their construction to.

 

What is a nonsense is the self declaration. With sea going boats (Cat A and Cat B ) the RCD must be independently assessed. Before the scheme came into operation in 1998 there were some yachts built and sold in the UK that were simply not seaworthy. So it is a good idea in that respect. If the scheme operated properly for canal boats (i.e. independently assessed) then you could rest assured that the electrics were safe, the gas safe, the appliances installed in accordance with the manufacturer's instructions, and etc.

 

A word of warning: the BSC does not have the same standards as the RCD. They are generally stricter. Electrical wiring is one that I know of. To gain a BSC and then self declare the boat compliant with the RCD is folly.

 

Has anyone ever been prosecuted? Yes. A few years ago a man who fitted out a boat sold it without the RCD requirements. It had a BSC. For some reason the buyer brought it to the attention of Trading Standards, who are supposed to police the scheme. It went to court, the builder pleaded ignorance and pointed out that the boat had a BSC. The court fined him £4000 with a further £5000 costs. I shouldn't think he made any profit out of that boat.

 

We may not like the scheme, we may rail against the EU. It is here, and EU or no a standard wil always now be in place. Buyers should ensure that the boat they buy complies. Or buy through a reputable broker who is a member of the BMF or ABYA who is bound by their Code of Conduct to ensure that all is in order. (Am I allowed to say this last bit? :-) )

 

 

[Dominic M]

What's getting insurance for a boat with no RCD (that should have one) like?

If you came to claim because the boat had an electrical fire or a gas explosion, or the inverter fried your wife, you would not get a penny I imagine. Read the small print.

 

I hope the section on the RCD on my website might be of interest. There's b. all on telly tonight

[rjasmith]

I entirely agree. It is ridiculous that the ISOs for 240v and low voltage installation on a boat are not freely available, for example. These are safety standards and should be openly available to all. Not hidden away and only for those prepared to cough up money to get sight of them.

 

I agree too but perhaps it is worth saying that folks who want to access ANY of the RCD standards should at least try their local County library service. Cambridgeshire Libraries are still providing their excellent online link to the British Standards website (BSOL) via which anyone who is a member of Cambridgeshire Libraries can have free read only access to any BS or ISO standard.

 

Cambridgeshire require you to live in the county or an adjacent one to be able to join and I believe other counties have similar rules but sadly not all provide this service. (Cambridgeshire will allow you to join if you have an "accommodation address" within the county).

 

Another way that may still work but I haven't tried it recently is by asking your local library to obtain a copy of a BS/ISO document via an Inter Library loan from the British Library who keep paper copies in their massive warehouse in Yorkshire. A small fee of a few pounds may be charged for this. A copy should then arrive for you on loan for 3 weeks. You must of course ensure you do not infringe copyright law while you are borrowing it.

 

Oh great - I've just looked on Cambs Libs to check it still works - it does but it seems ISO 12217 (stability) and both electrical standards (13297 and 10133) were reissued a few months ago. I suppose I'll have to go through them all again to see what's changed!!

 

Also worth noting that the previous versions of ISO 13297 and 10133 mysteriously come up as .pdfs on someone's website if you Google for them. Clearly whoever owns the website is a norty boy!

 

Richard

Edited April 24, 2013 by rjasmith

[Lady Muck]

The bloke we bought our boat off did all the work on his RCD sitting in the library. I have to say - he was a star, we do refer to the handbook he wrote - and especially the hand written diagrams of the plumbing and electrics systems that he made - he even gave us photos of the entire build and a load of bits of wire with labels on, which he'd kept to remind him what wire he'd used for which bit. We know where all the wiring goes behind the line-out and what was used - who can say that (unless they were the fitter?)

 

Mr ex Rallentando owner, we are eternally grateful for your extreme carefullness - you save us so much time when we need to do repairs.

[madcat]

thank the gods that Halsall is old, no new hulls for me because of the increased regulation. Cheers Thor,give the EU beaurocrats a tap with the hammer in passing.

[WJM]

Whats the big deal - the CE mark is self awarded. Just award yourself one and the problem is solved!

[Phoenix_V]

I agree too but perhaps it is worth saying that folks who want to access ANY of the RCD standards should at least try their local County library service. Cambridgeshire Libraries are still providing their excellent online link to the British Standards website (BSOL) via which anyone who is a member of Cambridgeshire Libraries can have free read only access to any BS or ISO standard.

 

Cambridgeshire require you to live in the county or an adjacent one to be able to join and I believe other counties have similar rules but sadly not all provide this service. (Cambridgeshire will allow you to join if you have an "accommodation address" within the county).

 

Another way that may still work but I haven't tried it recently is by asking your local library to obtain a copy of a BS/ISO document via an Inter Library loan from the British Library who keep paper copies in their massive warehouse in Yorkshire. A small fee of a few pounds may be charged for this. A copy should then arrive for you on loan for 3 weeks. You must of course ensure you do not infringe copyright law while you are borrowing it.

 

Oh great - I've just looked on Cambs Libs to check it still works - it does but it seems ISO 12217 (stability) and both electrical standards (13297 and 10133) were reissued a few months ago. I suppose I'll have to go through them all again to see what's changed!!

 

Also worth noting that the previous versions of ISO 13297 and 10133 mysteriously come up as .pdfs on someone's website if you Google for them. Clearly whoever owns the website is a norty boy!

 

Richard

University libraries often have access to the standards and can be accessed on line. e.g. Derby. I understand that non students can join the library for a small fee

[blissbee]

blissbee:

 

Just a thought - does your boat insurance include legal cover? - If so - it would save you a few pennies

thanks I will check

 

Whats the big deal - the CE mark is self awarded. Just award yourself one and the problem is solved!

? that is not what I have found out at all. Yes, in certain cases you can self-certify your boat but you would need to have a lot of technical, electrical knowledge to do so. My understanding is that most people use a professional C E Marker or a company like CEproof.com, as part of the process you need to put various documents and manuals together. Where did you get this information from?!

 

Sorry to appear hard but desperate for a home and yet selling it almost immediately?

That 's a thoughtless comment! Naturally, I am not going to post detailed personal circumstances when I am asking about legality and regulation! As it happens, the marina have changed their leniency towards cats (I have two) and my father has been diagnosed with a degenerative disease and I want to move closer to him.

 

I believe one is a part of the other - you need a CE marking as part of the RCD. Naturally, I actually know nothing about this and have no experience of getting a boat through RCD

 

Richard

I understand that if you have the C E Marking done then you will not need a Boat Safety Certificate for 4 years, so I know that the C E Marking will cover your boat safety.

 

It is illegal to sell any completed boat within 5 years of new without a CE marking.

 

Alex

Yes, absolutely. I understand that if a company sell a sail - away / part complete boat for a DIY fit then they do not need to mark it, it becomes the DIY fitter's job to do so, they become the 'responsible person' and if they sell it on within 5 years then they will need to do the CE Mark.

 

If bought as a sailaway for home completion it did not need to be CE marked by the builder.

-How could the builder CE mark an uncompleted boat?

 

It should have come with a Declaration of Conformity - Annexe 111a for a partly completed craft, issued by the shell builder.

Have you got that?

It's a start.

 

Yes it was illegal for the previous DIY fitter to sell it to you without the CE mark but you could spend ages and big money recovering compensation from him which doesn't help you much. Especially if he has no money.

 

As I see it you will need to complete the boat and get a CE mark on it (which is what I am doing with my boat) or keep it for 5 years to sell it without a CE mark.

Getting a CE mark is possible for a DIY fitter but quite an undertaking.

I wouldn't like to try this with a boat I had not been intimately involved with right from the start.

Yes, I agree with the legal regulations as you express here. Yes it has the Annexe IIIa. I am looking for a no win/ no fee lawyer. The ex-owner has a mortgage and have been advised that compensation, if need be, could be added to this.

 

I am not sure that the OP bought the boat as a sail away/part fitted boat so herself may have been a victim of an illegal sale

The did buy is as a sail away as I have the Annexe IIIa document which says so. So, nothing illegal happened at that point.

 

Have you not read the OP? The boat is under offer, and the it's the buyer's survey that has turned up the problem. That's the whole point of the post.

Yes, that's right. I need to sell the boat due to a change in personal and family circumstances.

 

Not quite. It is illegal to offer it for sale anywhere in the EU without relevant RCD documentation within the first 5 years. It doesn't actually have to be sold.

 

As the shell was built in 2010 the 5 years cannot have elapsed yet, and so the OP has (unwittingly) already committed the same offence as the previous owner.

Hello Alex, where have you read the term 'offer it for sale'? There is a big difference in 'offering something for sale' and 'selling it' I haven't 'sold' the boat yet. Please direct me to your source of this phrase and/ or to the relevant document. Thanks.

 

Hi

 

Firstly. As for illegal etc Do a poll and see how many thousands of people are in prison for selling a boat without this bit of paper within five years, I dont think you will find any, murder it aint so lets put it into perspective.

I fitted a boat from a new shell and got it properly done and sold it privately after 12 months and the purchaser didnt even know what the paperwork was till I sold it to him.

Thirdly the boat I now own I am the third owner of doesnt have the relevant bits of paper. It was sold as a 12 month old boat to the bloke I bought it from whod didnt care and the first owner is not languishing in jail !!

When I sell it I will have no problems.

Oh and just checked the boat is still afloat.

 

Tim

I agree with you Tim. No-one to my knowledge has ever been prosecuted. But, the case with me is that the prospective buyers are being extremely thorough and found out about the lack of a C E Mark at survey (and I did not know either) and they seem to be the kind of people who are going to want everything 'legit' especially as, of course, they won't be paying! Also, yes, it seems odd that older boats do not need the RCD/ the C E Mark, just as for example a woodburner in an old boat does not need to be fixed down, it all seems random to me, if it is about safety then I don't understand why old boats should not be up to standard and get this paperwork also?

[Timleech]

Mark, just as for example a woodburner in an old boat does not need to be fixed down, it all seems random to me, if it is about safety then I don't understand why old boats should not be up to standard and get this paperwork also?

 

Any solid fuel stove needs to be fixed to pass a BSS inspection.

 

Tim

[blissbee]

The other problem is if the buyer is getting a marine mortgage for the boat. We faced exact same problem when buying our boat - 4 year old boat DIY fit-out, no RCD no CE mark.

 

RSL wouldn't lend until this was sorted out.

That's helpful to know as it is likely that i will need to put the boat back on the market and would want to be open about lack of, or current progress, with the paperwork. Could you tell me if the person you bought it from, who did the C E Marking for you had to send off a boat handbook, technical file etc to a Notifying body? I would say that if someone is going to self-certify they will need a lot of knowledge, and maybe even be a marine professional, you were lucky your guy was.

 

There's a raft of daft legislation that affects DIY house maintenance too. The obvious way round THAT is just to lie about when the work was done so that it pre-dates the legislation. Can't you do the same with the boat? If it was built more than five years back it doesn't need all this stuff, as far as I can see. The thing to do with ridiculous laws is a) ignore than and make sure you don't get caught!

Yes I agree it's daft legislation as far as my understanding at this point goes. I do have an Annexe IIIa Document which states the date the hull was completed. Would this not have been registered somewhere? And are boat sales ever registered on a national database? I agree no-one's policing this, but I don't see how I could now take this approach.

[blissbee]

There's a raft of daft legislation that affects DIY house maintenance too. The obvious way round THAT is just to lie about when the work was done so that it pre-dates the legislation. Can't you do the same with the boat? If it was built more than five years back it doesn't need all this stuff, as far as I can see. The thing to do with ridiculous laws is a) ignore than and make sure you don't get caught!

Hi there, I don't see how this would be possible when I have an Annexe IIIa certificate which states the date. Are these documents not recorded somewhere? So, if someone was going to buy the boat and didn't mind about it not having a C E Mark and lived on it for two years until Aug 2015 then would they need to do the C E Marking then or not?

 

When I get a call from someone looking to sell a boat that they bought as a sailaway and have fitted out, and now want to sell, I always ask if they have the RCD paperwork and Craft Id No in place (if the craft is less than 5 years old). If they do not, I tell them that they must, explain why, and add that I am happy to put them in touch with a surveyor who can guide them through the process. If the response is, "I can't be arsed with all that EU bollocks," or something similar (and only once out of a number of occasions has this been the case) then I tell them I cannot broker the boat.

 

Not least because I don't want a hapless buyer to end up in the position that the OP now finds him or herself in. I like people to enjoy boating, buy a legitimate boat, and I also like to sleep at night. So the short answer is no.

Thank you for your helpful posts. For my part I wish that these documents for a start were clearer and it was easier to find the relevant information about them. I looked at the Annex IIIa document when I bought my boat but I did not know anything about CE Marking. The Annex IIIa document could be a lot clearer. I am also finding it difficult to get my head around the RCD, the BSC and the CE Mark and how they overlap, interrelate or don't. It is all so confusing!

 

My take on this situation would be to explain the situation to the buyer and hope they understand the situation, personally, I think we should all boycott the bl**dy stupid EU RCD rules and sell OUR boats when, how and to whom we like!!! Another option though, put it on hard standing and sell it as a mobile home, NO RCD/CE mark required!!! What the new owner does with it then, I.e. puts it in water and uses it as a boat is up to them. Just my opinion of course.

Hi there, that's an interesting take. Yes, I agree the rules (and because they do not apply to older boats) seem crazy i.e. my woodburner will be fitted down but another person's and maybe they're next to me, won't. What I care about at the moment is that my boat is safe and I want do whatever I need to do to make sure that that is so. As someone pointed out, yes, maybe a mobile home too needs to comply? Also, I don't see how I could do this as the boat is in a marina and part of its value it he marina berth. Thanks

[Paul C]

Isn't there a scheme called Habitation Code, or something like that, for motorhomes now? I think its optional but all the main manufacturers have submitted their motorhomes for testing/rating.

[MtB]

I am also finding it difficult to get my head around the RCD, the BSC and the CE Mark and how they overlap, interrelate or don't. It is all so confusing!

 

 

1) The BSC, also known as BSS, is completely unrelated to RCD and CE marking. The BSS is a bit like at MoT for your car. You have to get an MoT for your car despite the fact that the car was originally designed and built to a raft of safety standards. Same for a boat, except its call a Boat Safety Certificate (BSC), and is tested according to the rules in the Boat Safety Scheme (BSS).

 

2) RCD is the standard to which a leisure boat must be built. I don't quite understand how CE marking fits in either!

 

MtB