blissbee

I tend to concur Tim, thank you Thank you for a thorough reply. That's really helpful. Yes I think they are trying it on. The boat was surveyed and then blacked by them, 2 coats. Unfortunately, I was not able to be with the surveyor as he surveyed. I asked for a copy of the surveyor's report when they mentioned 'pitting' as they were not clear as to 'the extent' and he does not appear to be saying it is 'catastrophic' He does give 2 years as a figure for the next lifting. I feel this comes under general boat maintenance and it will be subjective as to what a person chooses to do and how often they choose to life and what they choose to paint with. The buyer has been saying that they would want the boat to be lifted as soon as and this done and that it may need over-plating! It's nuts. I think I need to start showing other people the boat! Yes, he did. No, no x ray specs. A gadget though (I will look at the survey to find the name) Took various readings. I have got the chart. Thanks for your help. I need to find out more about this 'mill scale.' Thank you. Things are looking up, fingers crossed. Thank you, this is so helpful. They made a revised offer and this, they said, included the cost for sandblasting and epoxy painting which I am now, also, finding was severely inflated. Not sure where that estimate came from. I rejected this offer. It is likely that they will get back to me with a 2nd revised offer and that the cost of sandblasting / epoxy painting will factor into that. They may be wanting me to pay half, I don't know, it would be a re-negotiation. They have been saying that they would want to do this as soon as, which I had always thought untenable. You are right, the surveyor does not say 'do it now', he suggests 'in two years.' I have the copy of the survey to study (lucky me!). No the survey is not catastrophically bad, it's hard to gauge what the truth is, it seem written from a slant of 'risk' all the way through. Surprised they didn't include my cats as a risk too! I agree. Thanks Tim. I need to find out more about 'mill scale.' Would the millscale not have come off when the boat was pressure washed and blacked, just a week ago? How would I know if the hull needs to be grit-blasted? Thank you again.

So what do you have to show? A technical folder? A boat handbook? And have a plate on the side of the boat? Yes, I am confused, hence this thread.

'by any person who places the product on the market under his own responsibility' I am try to establish who in law is the 'responsible person' and who is legally 'responsible' for fitting the C E Marking bill. 1) this does not say 'by the FIRST person who places the product on the market...' So could it be me? 2) '... or (if neither the manufacturer ... ) by any person...) is this meant to be read as a step by step process? or a procedure? i.e. if it's not this man in the chain, then this man, then this man i.e. this regulation could be interpreted as procedural (?) which would indicate that the person who bought from the manufacturer is the 'responsible person' Urrrrgh! It's a real headache! All advice is helpful! And as you may infer just because someone is involved in boats in a 'professional' capacity does not necessarily mean that they will know or know more. Of course, I value all experience, as with all areas of life. The fact is, however, that at the moment I have to continue to respond to the buyer's lawyer and potentially will be legally involved with the previous owner. It is for that reason that knowing about the legal nitty gritty (although a complete headache to me!) is fundamental. So you can self-certify. But what exactly would you need to do? And who would issue the CE certificate? As you have I'm sure already gathered I have no technical or boaty knowledge. Would you need to write a boat handbook? a technical file? And who would you need to send them too. I.e. is there somewhere where I could read about self-certification on the internet. It's all a mystery to me at this point! Really helpful. Thank you. That clarifies Thank you

Sorry David. I am not finding the forum set-up the easiest to navigate! Another poster. Thank you. That's helpful. So with this wording there is no allowance for 'not - knowing' i.e. not knowing about the regulations (?) i.e. it does not say 'no person shall knowingly place on the market... '. I am presuming that 'product' here is inclusive of boats (?) as I know that lost of products are C E Marked. It does not, however, clarify who in law is the 'responsible person' i.e. who in the chain is 'responsible' for fitting the C E Marking bill. I know it was not the boat builder who sold it as a sail-away. it is my understanding at present that it is the person who DIY completes and sells on within 5 years. Thank you David. That's really helpful. Yes, unfortunately with a buyer's lawyer involved if I want to have a chance of following through with this sale (which I do) then at this point in time, and with regard to this potential buyer, I do need to be looking at the nitty legal gritty! Thanks David. Would it be correct to interpret then that the previous owner is in law the 'responsible person' and should have got the C E Marking done and is still the 'responsible person'? Really helpful, thank you Tony I can see that. The other part to this is that it's not just a dialogue between the previous owner and myself, there's also another, simultaneous dialogue going on between myself and the buyer's lawyer. If I want this sale to have a chance of happening then, at this point, I need to continue to respond, with legal insight, to the buyer's lawyer.

Thank you for your help. What is your 'qualified experience' i.e. it would be really helpful to know what your profession is. Are you a C E Marker? A boat surveyor? Or lawyer? I am really needing some professional advice! Is it irrelevant though when someone wants to get boat insurance? I have got boat insurance but I am going to need to check the small print to see if it is still valid without having the C E Mark. Would you need a C E Mark to get a boat licence? Thanks again.

hello, i am selling a boat and the survey is back and the buyers are saying that it will need to be sand/ grit blasted and epoxy painted as she is pitted and more than expected for a boat of 2.5 years old. What causes pitting? What is the best option to remedy it, ensure the boat doesn't deteriorate rapidly? And is epoxy the same thing as 2pack? It has just recently been cleaned, scraped and blacked with 2 coats of bitumen. she's a 45 ft widebeam. Can you tell me also i) a rough cost for sand/ grit blasting? ii) a rough cost for epoxy 2 pack? i am trying to get a sense of what work is needed and what I can allow for when we re-negotiate the price. Thank you!

Hello Dominic, just had a look at your website. It's very helpful, thank you. I do have an Annex IIIa declaration. The boat was sold as a sail-away in Aug 2010. In your opinion, who is legally the 'responsible person' here? I.e. is the person who DIY fitted the boat and sold it on to me within the 5 years the person who is still legally 'responsible' for C E Marking the boat? That is what I really need to know. You say on your website that 'you may end up fitting the bill', again, who is the legally 'responsible person' in my case? Or do you know of a boat lawyer I could talk to? Also, would you say, and from what I have read on your website, that if someone were to buy the boat from me without the C E Mark and live aboard/ keep it up the 5 year mark, 2015, that they would still be needing to get the C E Mark? Yes, I will check the small print on my insurance. Thank you. Thank you for your helpful posts. My main concern at the moment is to establish who in law is the 'responsible person' i.e. is the previous seller, who DIY fitted a sail-away and then sold it on within 5 years the person who is legally 'responsible' for getting/ paying for the C E Marking to be done? I want to know if it is legally legitimate for me to ask for or seek to recover this money. Also, I really need to find a boat lawyer or lawyer who could give me some advice. Thank you again.

Hi there, I don't see how this would be possible when I have an Annexe IIIa certificate which states the date. Are these documents not recorded somewhere? So, if someone was going to buy the boat and didn't mind about it not having a C E Mark and lived on it for two years until Aug 2015 then would they need to do the C E Marking then or not? Thank you for your helpful posts. For my part I wish that these documents for a start were clearer and it was easier to find the relevant information about them. I looked at the Annex IIIa document when I bought my boat but I did not know anything about CE Marking. The Annex IIIa document could be a lot clearer. I am also finding it difficult to get my head around the RCD, the BSC and the CE Mark and how they overlap, interrelate or don't. It is all so confusing! Hi there, that's an interesting take. Yes, I agree the rules (and because they do not apply to older boats) seem crazy i.e. my woodburner will be fitted down but another person's and maybe they're next to me, won't. What I care about at the moment is that my boat is safe and I want do whatever I need to do to make sure that that is so. As someone pointed out, yes, maybe a mobile home too needs to comply? Also, I don't see how I could do this as the boat is in a marina and part of its value it he marina berth. Thanks

That's helpful to know as it is likely that i will need to put the boat back on the market and would want to be open about lack of, or current progress, with the paperwork. Could you tell me if the person you bought it from, who did the C E Marking for you had to send off a boat handbook, technical file etc to a Notifying body? I would say that if someone is going to self-certify they will need a lot of knowledge, and maybe even be a marine professional, you were lucky your guy was. Yes I agree it's daft legislation as far as my understanding at this point goes. I do have an Annexe IIIa Document which states the date the hull was completed. Would this not have been registered somewhere? And are boat sales ever registered on a national database? I agree no-one's policing this, but I don't see how I could now take this approach.

thanks I will check ? that is not what I have found out at all. Yes, in certain cases you can self-certify your boat but you would need to have a lot of technical, electrical knowledge to do so. My understanding is that most people use a professional C E Marker or a company like CEproof.com, as part of the process you need to put various documents and manuals together. Where did you get this information from?! That 's a thoughtless comment! Naturally, I am not going to post detailed personal circumstances when I am asking about legality and regulation! As it happens, the marina have changed their leniency towards cats (I have two) and my father has been diagnosed with a degenerative disease and I want to move closer to him. I understand that if you have the C E Marking done then you will not need a Boat Safety Certificate for 4 years, so I know that the C E Marking will cover your boat safety. Yes, absolutely. I understand that if a company sell a sail - away / part complete boat for a DIY fit then they do not need to mark it, it becomes the DIY fitter's job to do so, they become the 'responsible person' and if they sell it on within 5 years then they will need to do the CE Mark. Yes, I agree with the legal regulations as you express here. Yes it has the Annexe IIIa. I am looking for a no win/ no fee lawyer. The ex-owner has a mortgage and have been advised that compensation, if need be, could be added to this. The did buy is as a sail away as I have the Annexe IIIa document which says so. So, nothing illegal happened at that point. Yes, that's right. I need to sell the boat due to a change in personal and family circumstances. Hello Alex, where have you read the term 'offer it for sale'? There is a big difference in 'offering something for sale' and 'selling it' I haven't 'sold' the boat yet. Please direct me to your source of this phrase and/ or to the relevant document. Thanks. I agree with you Tim. No-one to my knowledge has ever been prosecuted. But, the case with me is that the prospective buyers are being extremely thorough and found out about the lack of a C E Mark at survey (and I did not know either) and they seem to be the kind of people who are going to want everything 'legit' especially as, of course, they won't be paying! Also, yes, it seems odd that older boats do not need the RCD/ the C E Mark, just as for example a woodburner in an old boat does not need to be fixed down, it all seems random to me, if it is about safety then I don't understand why old boats should not be up to standard and get this paperwork also?

hello, i am selling a boat and the survey is back and the buyers are saying that it will need to be sand/ grit blasted and epoxy painted as she is pitted and more than expected for a boat of 2.5 years old. What causes pitting? What is the best option to remedy it, ensure the boat doesn't deteriorate rapidly? And is epoxy the same thing as 2pack? It has just recently been cleaned, scraped and blacked with 2 coats of bitumen. she's a 45 ft widebeam. Can you tell me also i) a rough cost for sand/ grit blasting? ii) a rough cost for epoxy 2 pack? i am trying to get a sense of what work is needed and what I can allow for when we re-negotiate the price. Thank you!

I am selling a boat. It is under offer. Was surveyed last week. At survey it has come up that it is not C E Marked. I know, from my research, and from C E Marker professional advice that it needs to be, and is not exempt. It was bought from a boat builder as a sailaway in 2010. It was then DIY or private fitted and it was sold to me in Dec 2012. I have been advised that the DIY fitter, i.e. the previous owner, should have done the C E Marking and that he is the 'responsible person' and is negligent and that I should be able to recover any costs for C E Marking and remedial work to get the mark if he is not amendable to paying for it now up front, which I doubt that he will be. The original boat builders, who I have spoken to, have advised me that they only C E mark completed boats and not sail-aways. The have also said that he would have known that he needed to do it and about the legal requirements. Obviously, I am regretting that I did not have a survey done when I bought the boat but my personal circumstances were such that I needed a home very urgently and thought that a 2.5 year old boat would be unproblematic. Has anyone else experienced this? Can anyone offer any advice? Can anyone recommend a 'canal or boat' lawyer? Or a no win/ no fee lawyer who could help? And is everything that I have stated about legally correct?