Liveaboard Thames

[mersey barge]

Hi,

 

My wife and I are hoping somewhere in the future to live on a barge on The Thames.

 

We are very concerned that without planning permission it is illegal to live on a boat.

 

There are very few residential berths and even fewer seem to become avbailable.

 

We are both Civil Servants and would loose our jobs and morringif we were found.

 

I understand there is a lot of problems with C&RT and residential mooring at the moment.

 

Is there an answer, or do you just moor and hope?

 

Is have noticed that some people seem to live at end of garden moorings, is this legal?

 

 

John + Joan

[GUMPY]

If you are on the Thames CaRT have nothing to do with it.

The Thames has a whole different set of rules to the canals.

[OldGoat]

I sent a long and detailed reply,

where's the expletive thing gone

[Grace and Favour]

I sent a long and detailed reply,

where's the expletive thing gone

Here you are, OG (!)

 

[mersey barge]

If you are on the Thames CaRT have nothing to do with it.

The Thames has a whole different set of rules to the canals.

 

I never said the C&RT had anything to do with the Thames. The statement was only recognising that the C&RT (and BWML) are cracking down on liveaboards on berths without planning permission.

 

If you read the EA booklet on the Thames it states ALL 'legal' residential mooring with planning permission have full services, i.e. sewage and water etc.

 

There seems to be very few that have services and therefore are legal but lots of people are living on boats on the Thames.

 

Mike

[blackrose]

Hi,

 

My wife and I are hoping somewhere in the future to live on a barge on The Thames.

 

We are very concerned that without planning permission it is illegal to live on a boat.

 

There are very few residential berths and even fewer seem to become avbailable.

 

We are both Civil Servants and would loose our jobs and morringif we were found.

 

I understand there is a lot of problems with C&RT and residential mooring at the moment.

 

Is there an answer, or do you just moor and hope?

 

Is have noticed that some people seem to live at end of garden moorings, is this legal?

 

 

John + Joan

 

 

The bottom line is that if you want to stay fully "above board" then you'll either have to find a residential mooring or give up the idea.

 

I've just left a Thames garden end mooring where I stayed for nearly 3 years - it was not residential.

 

The point is that if you want to do this it's perfectly possible, you just have to play by a slightly different set of rules. This includes not making a nuisance of yourself and not giving your land-based neighbours any cause to complain about you.

 

In many cases such as my own at that mooring, it would actually be very difficult for local councils or the waterways authority to prove that I was living aboard. My landlady told me to say to anyone who asked that I was her nephew and was living in the house, and just stayed on the boat in the evenings. I never had any trouble from the EA and I never caused any trouble to them.

 

If you read the EA booklet on the Thames it states ALL 'legal' residential mooring with planning permission have full services, i.e. sewage and water etc.

 

There seems to be very few that have services and therefore are legal but lots of people are living on boats on the Thames.

 

Mike

That's right. Lots of people do it. If you want to join them you can but you won't be fully legal. If you don't want to be living in that grey area then don't do it.

[OldGoat]

Here you are, OG (!)

 

 

That's most kind; much obliged.

 

Pity I lost the rest of the post's text, though.

Now that I've calmed down, I might make a more considered reply.

[OldGoat]

Second attempt at a controversial reply

 

Both CaRT and EA waters were designed / tamed / whatever for navigating and NOT as a vehicle for folks to occupy them as a home. Consequently the infrastructure has totally inadequate provision for services of any type. I am particularly bothered about refuse and bodily wastes disposal. THere aren't namy bins for the former and even fewer pumpout and elsan disposal points. refuse can be bagged but liquid waste is more difficult. I suspect more and more folks are just tipping their poo overboard - perhaps they have alwasys done that.

 

My point to the OP is that he should consider the mechanics of these details before thinking he can just arrive and find somewhere to moor. The most sensible solution would be to find a berth in a marina with pumpout, fuel and refuse services. Some will accommodate de facto liveaboards provided the boat is used for navigation. AFAIK one says that the boat must be out of the marina for a minimum of two weeks in any one year.

 

The Thames unlike the canals is not suited to lines of moorings. There is little campshedding (bank protection) and the natural banks slope with very shallow margins. As the river rises and falls when rainfall threatens, mooring lines need to be checked daily.

 

There are few spare end of garden moorings, such as BlackRose had, only come up through local knowledge and may well be inconvenient for folks with an office job. He had to row across the channel every day - not much fun when the River is in spate.

[mickspangle]

As a fellow civil servant living on a leisure mooring, can you point me in the direction of whatever it is that says you'll lose your jobs and mooring if caught (I presume) living on a boat on a mooring without planning permission?

[eightpot]

And anyway, you don't *live* on the boat - it is your hobby and you merely like to spend time on it. A lot of time. Of course you have a land based abode. Here, look at the address on your driving licence and your entry in the electoral register.

 

Nudge nudge, wink wink.

[Greedyheron]

Why is there this obsession about people living on boats? I came inland after living aboard on the south coast and no one there cared, there are many liveaboard s in most marinas there and so long as you are tidy it's never a problem. At the time I worked for the local council, they didn't care where I lived and were aware I lived on a boat. Liveaboard s are actively liked in many marinas as they provide security and extrapairsof hands when the weather is bad and non liveaboard boats need extra fendering/ better tieing up. The boats surrounding me always had owners who enjoyed asking me to keep an eye on thier boat over winter as it meant less trips to the boatfor them.

I moved in land last year and have been amazed by the rules and regulations which seem to achieve very little. Why does it bother anyone that I live on my boat? It doesn't cost the marina any more for me to liveaboard than to just visit my boat, it doesn't cost anyone else more either. I'm not in anyone's way. If the local council asked me to pay council tax I would (I actively tried paying when on the south coast and the council declined). I cant see how it makes any difference to CART, EA or anyone else whether I'm on the

Boat or not.

Sure, if I was messy, in someone else's way or chucking sewerage over the side of the boat, that would not be acceptable, butwhywould anyone be upset by me being on the boat? Makes no sense to me.

 

And info for the OP, I lived at a DML marina for a while on the THames , they have an 8 nights a month rule, which they kind of enforce so best avoided or keep your head very low (think buying a bright red car gave me away!)

[Jerra]

At the time I worked for the local council, they didn't care where I lived and were aware I lived on a boat.

 

it doesn't cost anyone else more either.

 

I am sorry but I can't agree with your points above.

 

The council should care about you living on a boat because at the very least they were being immoral giving an employee (or for that matter anyone else) preferential treatment - letting them off without council tax and not persuing them for breach of planning regs as they would anyone else.

 

It does cost others more. The amount of money needed by the council has to be collected from those paying council tax living somewhere and not paying your share means others have that share split up among what they pay.

[Chris Pink]

Why is there this obsession about people living on boats?

 

Define "living on a boat".

 

I am sorry but I can't agree with your points above.

 

The council should care about you living on a boat because at the very least they were being immoral giving an employee (or for that matter anyone else) preferential treatment - letting them off without council tax and not persuing them for breach of planning regs as they would anyone else.

 

It does cost others more. The amount of money needed by the council has to be collected from those paying council tax living somewhere and not paying your share means others have that share split up among what they pay.

 

What rubbish.

 

Council tax is a tax on property - there were riots when somebody (can't remember the name but then neither could she) tried to impose a poll tax, do you think you can impose one all on your own?

[Steilsteven]

Why is there this obsession about people living on boats? I came inland after living aboard on the south coast and no one there cared, there are many liveaboard s in most marinas there and so long as you are tidy it's never a problem. At the time I worked for the local council, they didn't care where I lived and were aware I lived on a boat. Liveaboard s are actively liked in many marinas as they provide security and extrapairsof hands when the weather is bad and non liveaboard boats need extra fendering/ better tieing up. The boats surrounding me always had owners who enjoyed asking me to keep an eye on thier boat over winter as it meant less trips to the boatfor them.

I moved in land last year and have been amazed by the rules and regulations which seem to achieve very little. Why does it bother anyone that I live on my boat? It doesn't cost the marina any more for me to liveaboard than to just visit my boat, it doesn't cost anyone else more either. I'm not in anyone's way. If the local council asked me to pay council tax I would (I actively tried paying when on the south coast and the council declined). I cant see how it makes any difference to CART, EA or anyone else whether I'm on the

Boat or not.

Sure, if I was messy, in someone else's way or chucking sewerage over the side of the boat, that would not be acceptable, butwhywould anyone be upset by me being on the boat? Makes no sense to me.

 

And info for the OP, I lived at a DML marina for a while on the THames , they have an 8 nights a month rule, which they kind of enforce so best avoided or keep your head very low (think buying a bright red car gave me away!)

Totally agree and I would go so far as to say that planning restrictions, with regard to residential use of boats, have no logic and should be scrapped.

A mooring is just a mooring whether you live on your boat or not, makes no difference.

The situation, as it stands, just creates an unnecessary shortage of legitimate berths and gives moorings operators an excuse to print money.

 

Keith

[Jerra]

Council tax is a tax on property - there were riots when somebody (can't remember the name but then neither could she) tried to impose a poll tax, do you think you can impose one all on your own?

 

Of course council tax is a tax on property unless I am very much mistaken living caravans and boats are property i.e. they belong to somebody. If a living caravan used for residential purposes has to pay council tax why not a boat. In fact I am not inventing anything if you live on a boat (other than genuine continuous cruising) you need residential planning permission and that lays you open to council tax.

 

Council tax is calculated to bring in the money a council needs if some aren't paying then others have to cover that.

 

Incidentally what has my drawing attention to the fact residential boats should be paying council tax got to do with a poll tax. You will find that the council tax is the same for a single person on a boat or a family of 6 on the same boat.

 

I am not imposing a tax of my own merely not expecting others to try to get something for nothing.

 

P.S. I suspect the only reason a genuine CC doesn't have to pay a council tax is because of the difficulties in

 

1. Catching up with them to impose it.

 

2. Deciding which of the many councils to award it to.

 

3. Effort to do the above exceeding the money which might be raised.

 

Totally agree and I would go so far as to say that planning restrictions, with regard to residential use of boats, have no logic and should be scrapped.

 

So how and when do the residential boaters pay their share of the things provided by the council, for example the streets they use to go shopping the street lights as they stumble out of the pub and haven't yet adjusted to the dark they will face on the tow path etc.

[Steilsteven]

There is no hard and fast ruling with Council Tax, some councils charge it and some don't.

 

 

Keith

 

 

So how and when do the residential boaters pay their share of the things provided by the council, for example the streets they use to go shopping the street lights as they stumble out of the pub and haven't yet adjusted to the dark they will face on the tow path etc.

 

Well, that's really a different subject, perhaps you'd like to come up with a better suggestion than the system we have now?

 

Keith

[Chris Pink]

...merely not expecting others to try to get something for nothing.

 

Don't you just love a "something for nothing" whinge.

 

If you really want to address the inequalities in the taxation system then I suggest that Poll Tax is not the way to do it.

 

As for "they belong to somebody" - do you think I should pay council tax on my boots?

[Jerra]

Well, that's really a different subject, perhaps you'd like to come up with a better suggestion than the system we have now?

 

Keith

 

No I wouldn't! I am happy with the current system provided all residential units pay a charge, no missing out living caravans or residential boats.

 

Perhaps for mobile residential units (as opposed to static caravans) it could be paid to the government as a tax which could then be divided up and paid out to councils along with other monies the central government pays to councils.

[GUMPY]

You have got it wrong

Council Tax is a property as in land tax

Boats and Caravans are chattels.

A mooring or pitch however is property and can under specific circumstances have CT charged on it.

Unless you are very well versed in the ways of the Valuation Office, most council officers are not, I would steer well clear of demanding that boat owners pay CT.

[Jerra]

Don't you just love a "something for nothing" whinge.

 

If you really want to address the inequalities in the taxation system then I suggest that Poll Tax is not the way to do it.

 

As for "they belong to somebody" - do you think I should pay council tax on my boots?

 

Oh Dear Oh Dear

 

I certainly love hearing those who try to justify why they shouldn't pay their way.

 

Where does this poll tax suggestion come from I certainly haven't mentioned it - just council tax.

 

I gave the readers credit for having the intelligence to separate the concept of "property" as in where you live from property as in this pen knife is my property. Was I wrong?

 

Is there a justifiable reason why somebody resident in some form of mobile domicile shouldn't be eligible for the same taxes as those who aren't mobile?

 

 

Unless you are very well versed in the ways of the Valuation Office, most council officers are not, I would steer well clear of demanding that boat owners pay CT.

 

Fine. Please do 2 things for me.

 

1. Suggest a justifiable reason why those resident in Chattels shouldn't be expected to pay their share.

 

2. Suggest a reasonable system other than council tax which could be applied.

[magpie patrick]

Of course council tax is a tax on property unless I am very much mistaken living caravans and boats are property i.e. they belong to somebody. If a living caravan used for residential purposes has to pay council tax why not a boat.

Not a correct interpretation at all: too simplistic

 

Council tax is payable on an hereditment, normally defined as something that can be inherited but for council tax purposes very helpfully defined as something that is liable for rates or council tax! However, it isn't payable on items that can be moved, e.g. boats and caravans as a general rule.

 

It is payable on the land that is used as a residential pitch or mooring on a permanent basis. So if the boat were changed the taxable entity would be the mooring,

 

CC'ers do not have a permament mooring, residential or otherwise, so there is no rateable or taxable entity. Whether this is legimate or simply tax avoidance/evasion depends on the politicised standpoint being taken.

[Greedyheron]

Have you considered that when I lived In a house the council tax was the same as it was now I do not live in the house ? The council still gets the same amount of money, it just happens that I don't live there. I live elsewhere but the council gets thesame money. So i can't see that the argument works.

 

If rules were in place that said I should pay a tax for living on my boat I would, just as I pay all the other taxes I need to pay. However, mine is not a residential mooring- therefore I can not use all the council services I would like to use (would love rubbish collection, would love to be on theelectoralrole, to be able to apply for an allotment etc) and nor does the council collect council tax from me. If they change the rules so they can collect the tax from me I will pay it and expect to get the same access to services as a house dweller.

 

As above the council I used to work for was fully aware I lived on a boat but they did not mind as it literally caused them not one problem. They rather liked it as I could come to work by boat no matter what the weather (ice,snow, fllood not an issue) and when there was a civil emergency and the main roads were closed- how could they get staff in to help, why by using my boat- how handy and worth far more than council tax iwas not liable for.

 

So I cant see why anyone has an issue with me living on the boat- if I went back to my house share I would be miserable and the council would still not have any more money- no one wins.

 

Can we just accept that living on a boat hurts no one but makes some of us happy?

[GUMPY]

 

 

Fine. Please do 2 things for me.

 

1. Suggest a justifiable reason why those resident in Chattels shouldn't be expected to pay their share.

 

2. Suggest a reasonable system other than council tax which could be applied.

1. Most services that mobile boaters use ( water, sewage disposal, rubbish collection etc ) are provided by the waterways authority and are paid for in the licence fee.

 

2. Local Income Tax, a levy could and should be added to everyone's tax bill, this should go towards paying for local services.

 

Anyone not paying income tax or on benefit would still not pay.

[Chris Pink]

1. Suggest a justifiable reason why those resident in Chattels shouldn't be expected to pay their share.

 

What band do you think my boots should be in? and your penknife.

 

You don't appear to have understood Loddon's post above yours.

 

I suggest you lobby for a tax on air. That will be fair, after all we all breathe. Why should you get it for nothing?

 

And council tax on leisure boats as second homes sounds like a good idea to me.

 

 

 

..

Edited April 11, 2013 by Chris Pink

[Greedyheron]

I wondering if I have just paid my share? I have just agreed to some contractors using part of my mooring for free for a week and given them a windlass so that they can get on with fixing a historic bridge in town. No I do not use the bridge but them council tax payers of the town do and they would not be getting their bridge fixed if the contractors could not get their boat through the lock.

Doesn't the world work better when we all contribute what's needed rather than grumbling about things and expecting someone else to do it because we pay taxes.

We could perhaps look at the benefits that liveaboards bring rather than viewing them as tax avoiders?