New build advise

[romarni123]

Havent there been many concept boats built over the years where the owners have lost money on them.

[Gatesofrome]

I do agree I would be far more comfortable buying the hull and getting someone to fit based on stage payments so that the hull and work done was always mine. Even if the fitter got into difficulties. It seems very strange commercially that someone would be prepared to invest all the material and labour costs only to get paid on completion. You have to ask yourself how desperate you must be for the work to take that risk.

I know what you mean but now a little confused as some say stage payments are not a good idear re losing the money. How I understand it the fitter pays for the hull then when it is fitted out we pay for the finished boat, does this still seem odd? Having never had a boat built befor I thought all builders did it this way. On the TW web site it does say deposit of 500 then the full payment at the end.

 

Havent there been many concept boats built over the years where the owners have lost money on them.

How come?

 

Is this as a live aboard or jut holidays

Live aboard

[bargemast]

It doesn't sound very logical (to me) that the fitter should pay for your hull, and then only gets his money back after he finishes the fit out. They must be very wealthy, or have a very helpful banker who's prepared to take the risk. In the meantime he's losing interest on his money that he has invested in your boat, and as he's surely not giving anything away, you have to pay for this loss of interest one way or another. That's why stage payments look like a more suitable option, with a proof of what you've paid, and that everything that has been done on the boat has been paid for, and belongs to you, so nobody else can put a claim on it, if things go wrong.

 

Peter.

[Gatesofrome]

Yes,

 

I believe his woodwork is classed as very good.

 

If you actually end up with a fully fitted boat from him, at a price agreed, then it is probably not a bad deal - and probably boats he has fitted in the past might be a good second-hand buy.

 

But we are not talking about someone who has a good track record to do business with, and, when his company has failed previously, it has been very, very costly and distressing to some of those involved. This includes well respected members of this forum.

 

I don't know anything of any business relationship that may exist between Tyler Wilson and Anthony M, but I would sugest each are telling a different story.

 

Anthony M's web-site says.....

 

 

 

which seems to be worded to imply at least a close relationship at some kind of jointly owned premesis.

 

However Tyler Wilson's website says....

 

 

 

So they list nine boat fitters they are happy to recommende, and Anthony M is not one of them.

 

If I didn't know Anthony M's very dubious history, that would still set alarms ringing to me!

Mmm I know it is strange but they introduced me to him for the fit out, I only found out about the history yesterday as I needed to e mail the fitter!

 

It doesn't sound very logical (to me) that the fitter should pay for your hull, and then only gets his money back after he finishes the fit out. They must be very wealthy, or have a very helpful banker who's prepared to take the risk. In the meantime he's losing interest on his money that he has invested in your boat, and as he's surely not giving anything away, you have to pay for this loss of interest one way or another. That's why stage payments look like a more suitable option, with a proof of what you've paid, and that everything that has been done on the boat has been paid for, and belongs to you, so nobody else can put a claim on it, if things go wrong.

 

Peter.

I think that the 3 he has just finished may be where he gets the money from, we have seen them fished and they all looked good.

[DeanS]

The reason some are worried about the fact that they only want £1000 upfront, is because, with a bespoke boat, they cant just sell it to someone else if you pull out, so why would they take the risk. You say it's because they are testing a new design, which would make some sense from the hull builders perspective, but I cant see why the boat fitter would do anything without payment (especially if it's a bespoke interior, and especially if they have had financial issues in the past.) Some reliable companies (like lmbs.co.uk) build so many non-bespoke boats that they can do so safely, but this is not the boat you are wanting. Since you are wanting a bespoke design, it would be generally accepted that part payments might be needed by the builders/fitters, however, there is a genuine risk that if relationships fail between the builder/fitter, the boat could be "frozen" in legal matters, even if you have paid some previous staged payments. There have been a few posts on this forum where this has happened to people. It sounds like the hull builder you have chosen, has some track record, but it sounds like you should avoid the fitter..based on his previous failings. Once your hull is built, you can really hire anyone to do the interior, so why dont you pay for the hull, get it floating, with it's engine etc (known as a sailaway) and then move it to the fitters yards (or let them come and work on the boat in a marina somewhere.?) I would personally hire a carpenter, electrician, plumber, gas fitter, and have them all doing specific tasks which each gets paid for individually, but others may disagree with this unique approach I bought my sailaway shell and did all the fitting out myself, with the boat on the water. There's no reason you cant hire the right people to fit it out once the hulls complete....unless the fact that it's a "new design" would mean the hull builder is unhappy to give it to you as a sailaway (hull+sprayfoamed+engine).

Edited December 24, 2012 by DeanS

[Grace and Favour]

Mmm I know it is strange but they introduced me to him for the fit out, I only found out about the history yesterday as I needed to e mail the fitter!

 

 

I think that the 3 he has just finished may be where he gets the money from, we have seen them fished and they all looked good.

 

Hmm,

 

I appreciate that you may be totally confident with your research and decisions - - - and if that's the case - - then fine.

 

However, you have sought opinion on this forum, and have received as strong a set of warning signals as the British libel laws will allow.

 

One of the businesses involved in your prospective purchase has the (deserved?) reputation of having behaved most unprofessionally, and allegedly be the direct cause for customers to lose substantial funds.

 

The fiscal business model you have quoted appears to be so outrageously unusual and unlikely (in the boat-building industry) to create serious doubt of its credibility .

 

You may wish to keep seeking confirmation that your decision processes are valid........ I strongly suggest that's not likely from experience garnered on this forum's members

[Biggles]

I wish I could find the link that poor unfortunate couple that had their boat in build vandalised in build by a previously reputable boat builder. I think they were from Aus or NZ. Someone will remember.

 

Where's the best place to by popcorn in bulk?

[DeanS]

Here is one story that opens your eyes to what can actually go wrong....the Google links to the various chapters on their blog.

[bargemast]

Here is one story that opens your eyes to what can actually go wrong....the Google links to the various chapters on their blog.

 

 

Here's another one with lots, and lots of misseries and threatenings even of the same boatbuilder.

 

My link

 

Peter.

[matty40s]

I'm just wondering if any other mugs unfortunate customers have paid a deposit on the same boat??

[Biggles]

Here is one story that opens your eyes to what can actually go wrong....the Google links to the various chapters on their blog.

 

 

Thats the one Dean. Thanks

[ditchcrawler]

Thats the one Dean. Thanks

And I read on here the other day he is back in business

[Biggles]

And I read on here the other day he is back in business

 

 

Nooooooooooooo! Well anyone that dose business with him will be a complete moron IMO.

[TTtrad]

To be honest I have been to lots of boat builders all over the country, ran up lots of miles, when I met Johnathan Wilson he was the one that seemed to have the most knowlage and did not try to frighten me with stories about other builders and what they can do wrong. I know I have a lot to learn about certificates for boats, but I have been focusing on the spec, but really appreciate the advise, wish I had gone on here befor now. The only reason I did come on here was because I needed to contact our boat fitter tony by e mail then was told he is known as anthony M found the past link on this forum. His work is very good I have seen his boats, probably the best wood work I have seen in all the boats I have looked at so far. In answer to some questions the deposit is just 1000.00, which seems good. We have looked at lots of second hand boats but could not find one ether it hey we're what we wanted and could not afford it or not what we wanted and the right price. We are having a wide bean intending to take it to France and retire eventually we will also be living aboard full time when we do get it. I also have had boats since I was a child we have a family boat and my sister also lives full time on a boat hence always been my dream to live aboard

 

You can't find a better builder then Jonathan Wilson, who has had Tim Tyler, Mike Christian all working for and now working in association with him in the boat building industry. You need to speak to the many recent customers of Anthony "M" as to the quality of the workmanship and boat fitting and not listen to the OPINION'S of the members of this forum. I have a bespoke Jonathan shell and there are few builders out there that can match the quality/weight of my shell, I have seen the new Brigantine style shell you are talking about at the yard and have seen the quality of work by Anthony, everything is bespoke by both parties and is second to none. If you look at this years Crick results they did very well in the awards department. As I say you need to speak to recent customers to put your mind at rest and not take too much notice of OPINION'S of people who do not have a Jonathan Wilson/Anthony "M" bespoke boat

[MtB]

You can't find a better builder then Jonathan Wilson, who has had Tim Tyler, Mike Christian all working for and now working in association with him in the boat building industry. You need to speak to the many recent customers of Anthony "M" as to the quality of the workmanship and boat fitting and not listen to the OPINION'S of the members of this forum. I have a bespoke Jonathan shell and there are few builders out there that can match the quality/weight of my shell, I have seen the new Brigantine style shell you are talking about at the yard and have seen the quality of work by Anthony, everything is bespoke by both parties and is second to none. If you look at this years Crick results they did very well in the awards department. As I say you need to speak to recent customers to put your mind at rest and not take too much notice of OPINION'S of people who do not have a Jonathan Wilson/Anthony "M" bespoke boat

 

You are obviously Antony M and I claim my five pounds!

 

MtB

[TTtrad]

You are obviously Antony M and I claim my five pounds!

 

MtB

 

No just an owner of a Jonathan Wilson boat who wants to give a constructive answer and not an opinion on something I know nothing about.

[Tuscan]

Jonathan Wilson shells are need very nice I didn't think anyone was disputed that. I think there were two concerns , the first was entering into a contract with fitter with a track record of not completing work through bankruptcy ( I have no first hand knowledge of this I am relying on the other forum members) the second was the commercial arrangements only a £1k deposit for a fully fitted bespoke wide beam , this seems unusual shall we say and I would be seeking clarity of final costs and check that they are usng an approved contract format.

[TTtrad]

Jonathan Wilson shells are need very nice I didn't think anyone was disputed that. I think there were two concerns , the first was entering into a contract with fitter with a track record of not completing work through bankruptcy ( I have no first hand knowledge of this I am relying on the other forum members) the second was the commercial arrangements only a £1k deposit for a fully fitted bespoke wide beam , this seems unusual shall we say and I would be seeking clarity of final costs and check that they are usng an approved contract format.

 

That's why she needs to speak to recent buyers of Jonathan Wilson/Anthony "M" boats, as what I've seen there's a constant stream of new boats being built and fitted out by them and each one is different so I doubt it would be a problem to speak to recent buyers/customers.

Edited December 26, 2012 by TTtrad

[MtB]

That's why she needs to speak to recent buyers of Jonathan Wilson/Anthony "M" boats, as what I've seen there's a constant stream of new boats being built and fitted out by them and each one is different so I doubt it would be a problem to speak to recent buyers/customers.

 

Are you saying YOU paid £1000 deposit and the balance on completion and all went well then?

 

If not, what were the payment terms of your build, as a satisfied customer who didn't get ripped off?

 

And how does speaking to the recent buyers/customers protect the OP from getting ripped off like older cutomers apparently were? What did YOU do to protect yourself from the risk?

 

MtB

 

(Edited to add the last para.)

Edited December 26, 2012 by Mike the Boilerman

[dor]

As far as I am concerned, anyone that goes bust leaving suppliers and customers severely out of pocket should be avoided at all costs.

I don't care how good their work is, the fact that they are back in business after writing off all their debts, at others cost, without repaying those that lost out is as good as theft.

I also find it remarkable that someone who was bankrupt can apparently be fund the build of a boat costing well over £100K on the basis of a £1K deposit.

[alan_fincher]

As far as I am concerned, anyone that goes bust leaving suppliers and customers severely out of pocket should be avoided at all costs.

I don't care how good their work is, the fact that they are back in business after writing off all their debts, at others cost, without repaying those that lost out is as good as theft.

Agree totally!

 

They should not ever be given further business after they have already ripped off innocent people.

 

It disgusts me that they can just leave people without what they paid for, only to start a new firm with the potential to do exactly the same again.

[Gatesofrome]

I know this may be a stupid question but if builder goes back into business and seems to be doing well again can the people that are owed money claim it back now? Just to clarify we are not having the brigantine it is very similar but not the same. I wonder if I go back to them if they can give me the details of people that have recently got a boat from them, still from what is being said that is no re assurance that mine will not be the one that happens when they may go bankrupt. So I am thinking the contract may be the best thing to protect, or is this again me being stupid. Boat. Building should or should it not be like any legal contract?

Edited December 26, 2012 by Gatesofrome

[system 4-50]

When somebody has gone bankrupt this shows that somebody else's contract failed to protect that somebody else!

 

If somebody gets blown up then you can reasonably suspect a minefield.

Other people may successfully walk through it but it is still minefield.

If you have lots of people around the edge shouting "Its a minefield", then you have even greater reason to suspect a minefield.

How much plainer can it be?

 

Or is it that you are standing in the middle of the minefield?

[Tuscan]

I know this may be a stupid question but if builder goes back into business and seems to be doing well again can the people that are owed money claim it back now? Just to clarify we are not having the brigantine it is very similar but not the same. I wonder if I go back to them if they can give me the details of people that have recently got a boat from them, still from what is being said that is no re assurance that mine will not be the one that happens when they may go bankrupt. So I am thinking the contract may be the best thing to protect, or is this again me being stupid. Boat. Building should or should it not be like any legal contract?

 

 

The short answer is no, I can't see how a contract will protect you as you haven't bought anything until its complete. They could sell it to someone else or you could walk away and forfeit your deposit. There is nothing wrong with the offer it's a bit like the adverts for DFS offering you a sofa with no payment for 12m nothing Is free they just make a higher profit at the end. I would just wonder why they would choose to work for a year investing £100k of labour and materials for free on the offer of payment it's not something I would do. Who exactly will your contract be with Jonothan Wilson or the fitter I think from the above posts this makes quite a difference.

[alan_fincher]

So I am thinking the contract may be the best thing to protect, or is this again me being stupid. Boat. Building should or should it not be like any legal contract?

You seem not to want to hear what many of us are trying to tell you about as forcefully as we can without actually going beyond what we can reasonably say on the forum.

 

It is a shame that one of our former long standing posters, (and someone who works for a well respected canal business), only appears rarely these days, because I doubt he would be as polite about Anthony M as we have been, (to put it mildly!....)

 

As you appear to have made up your mind, go ahead, and lets hope you survive the experience even though others in the past have lost thousands because of this guy - I really do give up, other than saying do a LOT more research, because that you have done so far doesn't seem to have told you a fraction about the possible pitfalls. Look for example on this forum for the very sad tales of user "Pav" who did all the right things to try and find a good established builder, with no bad history, but still saw his carefully selected one go down, taking tens of thousands of his money with him. I'm sure he thought he had the best contract he could, but ultimately it didn't help him one iota, and his boating dream was ultimately destroyed by the experience.