Gas fire

[tonybol]

I`m a newbie to boating so please be gentle !

 

I am trying to find out if it`s possible/permitted to fit a lpg or butane gas fire on a boat, there are plenty of gas water heaters and cookers but I can`t find any gas fires.

 

Can anyone advise me on regulations etc ?

 

Tony

[alan_fincher]

Tony,

 

There is a type of LPG heater known as a "catalytic" heater that were once found on boats from time to time.

 

I just looked at the BSS, ("Boat Safety Scheme") regulations anticipating that they would either say these are no longer allowed, or at the very least that you could not fit a new one, even if existing ones are allowed.

 

I'm kind of surprised to find they don't appear to be outlawed, to be honest, but there is still a section in BSS regulations giving installation requirements, and specs they should adhere to.

 

Personally, despite having no qualms about gas hobs, cookers, water heaters or refrigerators on boats, I wouldn't want anything to do with a catalytic heater.

 

Apart from any other consideration, bottled gas is now a very expensive commodity on board, and it seems bonkers to me to use it for space heating when there are very much cheaper ways of producing the heat.

 

I personally have not seen a canal boat with such a heater in very many years - and I've seen quite a lot of boats.

[Arthur Marshall]

Tony,

 

There is a type of LPG heater known as a "catalytic" heater that were once found on boats from time to time.

 

I personally have not seen a canal boat with such a heater in very many years - and I've seen quite a lot of boats.

Mine had one fitted when I bought it, and when it died I put another one in - it was nice to have instant heat. However, after a while it failed to stay alight, which is never a good sign in any form of gas fire, and I replaced it with bookshelves... the main problem with catalytic heaters is that they produce a huge amount of water vapour and therefore condensation, which is definitely not a good thing in a boat. Solid fuel any time, me.

[alan_fincher]

the main problem with catalytic heaters is that they produce a huge amount of water vapour and therefore condensation.........

Yes, I meant to put that in my post too, and managed not to.

 

Horrible things, in my view.

[jelunga]

I can remember them (cat hesters) on Norfolk Broads hire cruisers in the 60s. They created so much condensation I would not want one on any boat I lived on. It is bad enough in our boat with the gas cooker and kettle creating condensation!

Just found significant damp and mould under the sink. Where the sink waste flows o/b through the hull fitting the metal pipe and elbow has been dripping condensate and soaked the wood liner and growing mould. So more ventilation and insulate pipework is on my job sheet

[stuart23]

My boat originally had a sealed gas heater which heated air which came out the top and was also ducted through the boat...there was a flue which took the fumes out ...it was an efficient system but I replaced it with a torgem

Edited December 9, 2012 by stuart23

[ditchcrawler]

I`m a newbie to boating so please be gentle !

 

I am trying to find out if it`s possible/permitted to fit a lpg or butane gas fire on a boat, there are plenty of gas water heaters and cookers but I can`t find any gas fires.

 

Can anyone advise me on regulations etc ?

 

Tony

You can see a gas fire on a boat here

[Radiomariner]

I can remember them (cat hesters) on Norfolk Broads hire cruisers in the 60s. They created so much condensation I would not want one on any boat I lived on. It is bad enough in our boat with the gas cooker and kettle creating condensation!

Just found significant damp and mould under the sink. Where the sink waste flows o/b through the hull fitting the metal pipe and elbow has been dripping condensate and soaked the wood liner and growing mould. So more ventilation and insulate pipework is on my job sheet

 

 

I remember holidays on hire narrowboats that had gas fires, not the more modern cat heaters which are more efficient and safer, but the ones with ceramic elements.The benefit of these and cat heaters is the almost instantanious heat, great for getting up on a cold morning. I do not recall a serious condensation problem, however that is because cold mornings and evenings were the only times it would be used. I never hired a boat over the winter months. I guess selecting one of these depends upon how you use your boat.

 

In the course of BSS examinations over the last few years I have only seen three or four cat heaters All were OK but I did recommend one to be removed. It was in the bed room, the owner liked it because on cold mornings he could reach out from his bed and switch it on . Unfortunately (or perhaps fortunately) for him he had not made his bed up that morning, and a corner of his Duvet was less than an inch away from the fire! I persuaded him to move or remove the thing, even though it was compliant. I am pleased to say that he could see my point and he completely removed it..

 

Visited a wide beam that had a very nice gas fire, catalytic elements behind glass and completely room sealed, positioned in the centre of the boat, I could not see there being much room to fit one on a narrow boat

[tonybol]

Thanks guys, I was thinking more of a gas fire with flue rather than a `heater` if that makes sense ?

[ditchcrawler]

Thanks guys, I was thinking more of a gas fire with flue rather than a `heater` if that makes sense ?

Like the one in the link I posted maybe?

Edit

Link again http://boatbuildblog.blogspot.co.uk/2011/12/oak-everwhere.html and its the second picture

Edited December 9, 2012 by ditchcrawler

[tonybol]

sorry I missed it, that`s the sort of thing, so it can be done, thanks

[ditchcrawler]

sorry I missed it, that`s the sort of thing, so it can be done, thanks

When you have done a few more posts you could PM him

[STUBAG]

I`m a newbie to boating so please be gentle !

 

I am trying to find out if it`s possible/permitted to fit a lpg or butane gas fire on a boat, there are plenty of gas water heaters and cookers but I can`t find any gas fires.

 

Can anyone advise me on regulations etc ?

 

Tony

Sorry, old chap, but round here they are known, for good reasons, as CATASTROPHIC HEATERS, so can't help you.

[Arthur Marshall]

 

 

In the course of BSS examinations over the last few years I have only seen three or four cat heaters All were OK but I did recommend one to be removed. It was in the bed room, the owner liked it because on cold mornings he could reach out from his bed and switch it on . Unfortunately (or perhaps fortunately) for him he had not made his bed up that morning, and a corner of his Duvet was less than an inch away from the fire! I persuaded him to move or remove the thing, even though it was compliant. I am pleased to say that he could see my point and he completely removed it..

That's where mine was, and also was one of the reasons I took it out. I think mine was about six inches from the fire when the bed was pulled out. Felt warm on a cold morning, but never very safe. That was before the boat had a coal fire...

[Tony Brooks]

Mine had one fitted when I bought it, and when it died I put another one in - it was nice to have instant heat. However, after a while it failed to stay alight, which is never a good sign in any form of gas fire, and I replaced it with bookshelves... the main problem with catalytic heaters is that they produce a huge amount of water vapour and therefore condensation, which is definitely not a good thing in a boat. Solid fuel any time, me.

 

Please can we clarify that.

 

A catalytic gas hearer is no worse and no better re condensation than any other form of non-flued heater burning a hydrocarbon fuel. 1 atom of hydrogen (from the fuel) combines with 2 atoms of oxygen (from the air) to make water vapour. You get roughly twice the amount of water compared with the fuel burned. It matters not if it is gas, solid fuel or oil except the last two are usually flued (unless anyone is using a paraffin "Aladdin" type heater).

 

However I agree that I would not fit one and would always fit one with a flue.

[mango]

Please can we clarify that.

 

A catalytic gas hearer is no worse and no better re condensation than any other form of non-flued heater burning a hydrocarbon fuel. 1 atom of hydrogen (from the fuel) combines with 2 atoms of oxygen (from the air) to make water vapour. You get roughly twice the amount of water compared with the fuel burned. It matters not if it is gas, solid fuel or oil except the last two are usually flued (unless anyone is using a paraffin "Aladdin" type heater).

 

However I agree that I would not fit one and would always fit one with a flue.

My chemistry teacher told me that water is H₂O, not HO₂.

[mango]

Any unflued gas appliances produce a lot of water vapour. Burning a 13 kg bottle of propane will generate over 21 kg of water vapour.

 

Having adequate ventilation is more than a safety issue.

[Tony Brooks]

My chemistry teacher told me that water is H₂O, not HO₂.

 

 

Yeah my mistake but the fact remains that unvented gas produces no more water vapour than any other unvented hydrocarbon fuel.

[pmms]

one of the major problems with catalytic heaters is the lack of visible flame, if the pad looses its conversion properties then unburnt (converted?) gas falls over the face of the pad and can either be burnt off by the pilot light or leak unnoticed into the bilge. I have seen , just once , a large flued catalytic heater that worked very well, the flue was fan assisted and the heater would not run if the fan failed. It was an American make, whose name escapes me.

 

I have seen (at boat shows no less) CE marked heaters, research showed that the CE marking was for use in sheds and greenhouses, the retailers, chandlers, took the view that it was "buyer beware".

 

PM

[Radiomariner]

I have seen (at boat shows no less) CE marked heaters, research showed that the CE marking was for use in sheds and greenhouses, the retailers, chandlers, took the view that it was "buyer beware".

 

PM

Yes a CE marking never means that anything is suitable for your particular purpose. For instance I frequently come across fire extinguishers that have CE markings but are not otherwise seen to be properly certificated. The CE marking is normally refers to the pressure capability of the 'bottle' nothing whatever to do with the ability of the contents to put out fires

 

Many people see the CE marking and assume it is OK to use as they wish, blisfully unaware that the ISO standard (Indicated by lettering after the CE marking) generally specifies many limitations.

 

One of my pet hates is that in this day of "freedom of information" ISO standards are still not readily available, and even then at a cost that is unreasonable for the general public. My next hate is that they are often so difficult to follow as they nearly always refer back to a previous standard which you do not have.

 

Rant over. Back to normal self,

 

Edited to add the "rant"

Edited December 10, 2012 by Radiomariner

[rosemary hale]

You can see a gas fire on a boat here

I had a living flame gas fire(with flue) on my last boat but 7 years later we have bought another boat and can`t find any info on these fires. It was excellent and no problem with condensation and I would love to have another fitted so if anyone can tell me of a supplier I would be very grateful. We are on the Middlewich canal

[Alan de Enfield]

I had a living flame gas fire(with flue) on my last boat but 7 years later we have bought another boat and can`t find any info on these fires. It was excellent and no problem with condensation and I would love to have another fitted so if anyone can tell me of a supplier I would be very grateful. We are on the Middlewich canal

 

We have one of these fitted at home :

 

http://www.oilstoves.co.uk/webdocs/technical/yeoman/YEOMAN_Devon_Balanced_Flue_Issue_2_Instalation_&_User.pdf

 

Its a balanced flue and 'room sealed',wether or not it would be 'boat-safe' or not would need a comment from a qualified bod (maybe Robb@BSS ?)

[rosemary hale]

We have one of these fitted at home :

 

http://www.oilstoves.co.uk/webdocs/technical/yeoman/YEOMAN_Devon_Balanced_Flue_Issue_2_Instalation_&_User.pdf

 

Its a balanced flue and 'room sealed',wether or not it would be 'boat-safe' or not would need a comment from a qualified bod (maybe Robb@BSS ?)

Thanks for your info. I will look into these stoves

[Water Rat.]

I had a living flame gas fire(with flue) on my last boat but 7 years later we have bought another boat and can`t find any info on these fires. It was excellent and no problem with condensation and I would love to have another fitted so if anyone can tell me of a supplier I would be very grateful. We are on the Middlewich canal

 

Agreed. I have a gas fire on my boat. The boat safety examiner almost had a fit when he saw it but, I felt very smug and not a little relieved when it passed the test in 2011. It is great, instant heat and clean, probably not so good for residential boats owing to the price of gas. I do not leave it on at night, so it does not have the advantage of a solid fuel which keeps warm all night.

[bizzard]

Years ago before the advent of the BSS thing folks used all manner of heating in their boats, the mainstay was the old Torgem stove and of course the traditional back cabin stoves but also many other forms of heating were used too, eg, domestic gas fires, Catalytic gas fires, solid fuel Parkrays, Rayburns, Paraffin heaters, even the eventually banned Sankey Senator drip feed Paraffin heaters. And I don't think there were anymore accidents or fatalities like boats burnt out or folk gassed by fume inhalation with them anymore than there are today. And of course there were no CO detectors then either although you could provide yourself with a pet Canary.