Battery design

[blackrose]

As I was topping up my batteries today, between hitting my head on the underside of the deck and struggling to get battery cables out of the way, I wondered why the ostensible design of wet-lead acid batteries doesn't seem to have improved in several decades? All the other produucts I can think of have gone through remarkable design evolutions, yet externally, wet-lead acid batteries still seem to be exactly the same as they were 30 odd years ago when I first encountered them.

 

Is there any reason for example, why we still need to unscrew and top up 6 separate cells per battery. I appreciate that each cell is a separate entity, but does that have to be the case above the battery fluid level as well as below? Why couldn't the design include cell separators which allow fluid to flow through to the next cell once they reach a certain level? This would allow the user to top up from one cap rather than 6. The other thing that I thought about is why on earth do battery manufacturers insist on making the caps themselves out of soft plastic - what looks like a medium density polyethylene? Mine are getting quite mashed up. Am I supposed to be using a special screwdriver? I tried a coin but it's far too fiddly and there's no leverage. I use a big screwdriver and try not to do them up too tightly, but I think I need some new caps. Are they a standard thread and are they available?

 

I wonder if the designers of wet lead-acid batteries ever actually use them long-term? Apart from battery experts like Gibbo I see no evidence from the products they sell that anyone involved in manufacture actually uses them.

Edited November 18, 2012 by blackrose

[ditchcrawler]

Why couldn't the design include cell separators which allow fluid to flow through to the next cell once they reach a certain level? This would allow the user to top up from one cap rather than 6. The other thing that I thought about is why on earth do battery manufacturers insist on making the caps themselves out of soft plastic - what looks like a medium density polyethylene?

Takes me back to my youth, Battery with a long filler on the top and when you pulled it off there were 6 holes below, each with a little ball in it. You pulled the long top off, poured the water into the trough where the cap came out of and it ran down all 6 holes, when the water was the right level the ball floated up and stopped the water going into that cell. When they were all topped up and the water didn't go anywhere you put the long lid back on, a little spike pushed each ball down so the cell could vent.

[Speedwheel]

US batt have a good system to remove the plugs three at a time.

 

http://www.usbattery.com/usb_us12vxc_sweep.html

 

You can get a watering system too.

 

http://www.usbattery.com/usb_watering_p1_main.html

[NB Lola]

I use sealed - solution

[alan_fincher]

US batt have a good system to remove the plugs three at a time.

 

http://www.usbattery.com/usb_us12vxc_sweep.html

Beat me to it.....

 

I knew I had seen exactly that, but failed to find it Googling.

 

I think one of the major issues is that we tend to try and shoehorn batteries in on boats where they will actually fit, without pinching other valuable space.

 

If that place happens to be reasonably accessible that tends to be considered a bonus, not necessarily a pre-requisite!

 

I can reasonably easily top up 5 out of 6 cells on each batery in our leisure bank - the 6th cell on each being part obshured by being tucked below on gunwale, and the topping up of those being more approximate.

 

These do help, but are not infallible.....

 

Durite Bottle Linky

 

A lot of money for a plastic bottle with a fancy cap, though!......

[Guest]

As I was topping up my batteries today, between hitting my head on the underside of the deck and struggling to get battery cables out of the way, I wondered why the ostensible design of wet-lead acid batteries doesn't seem to have improved in several decades? All the other produucts I can think of have gone through remarkable design evolutions, yet externally, wet-lead acid batteries still seem to be exactly the same as they were 30 odd years ago when I first encountered them.

 

Is there any reason for example, why we still need to unscrew and top up 6 separate cells per battery. I appreciate that each cell is a separate entity, but does that have to be the case above the battery fluid level as well as below? Why couldn't the design include cell separators which allow fluid to flow through to the next cell once they reach a certain level? This would allow the user to top up from one cap rather than 6. The other thing that I thought about is why on earth do battery manufacturers insist on making the caps themselves out of soft plastic - what looks like a medium density polyethylene? Mine are getting quite mashed up. Am I supposed to be using a special screwdriver? I tried a coin but it's far too fiddly and there's no leverage. I use a big screwdriver and try not to do them up too tightly, but I think I need some new caps. Are they a standard thread and are they available?

 

I wonder if the designers of wet lead-acid batteries ever actually use them long-term? Apart from battery experts like Gibbo I see no evidence from the products they sell that anyone involved in manufacture actually uses them.

That sounds so familiar

 

I was going to try aralditing a very large washer in a piece of wood to make removing caps easier. Like many things, I haven't got around to it yet.

[Speedwheel]

I have two of the 155 amp versions on Tycho. They have the same foot print area as a normal 110.

 

I also have one of those Durite filling bottles - didn't pay that much though.

[blackrose]

Takes me back to my youth, Battery with a long filler on the top and when you pulled it off there were 6 holes below, each with a little ball in it. You pulled the long top off, poured the water into the trough where the cap came out of and it ran down all 6 holes, when the water was the right level the ball floated up and stopped the water going into that cell. When they were all topped up and the water didn't go anywhere you put the long lid back on, a little spike pushed each ball down so the cell could vent.

 

So we've gone backwards?

 

I use sealed - solution

 

It's only a solution if you don't mind reduced battery performance compared to wet lead/acid.

 

US batt have a good system to remove the plugs three at a time.

 

http://www.usbattery.com/usb_us12vxc_sweep.html

 

Are they available for different battery types?

 

 

Durite Bottle Linky

 

A lot of money for a plastic bottle with a fancy cap, though!......

 

That's what I use. It certainly helps. I think I paid about 15 quid about 5 years ago and don't regret it.

[Chalky]

There is a HUGE amount of work going on at the moment in battery design. It all appears to be with Lithium Ion batteries for use in Electric Vehicles and it appears that some of it is/will trickle down into the 12V world however the batteries at the moment are still expensive. What'll be interesting is what happens to the traction batteries after they've degraded to the point where they aren't suitable for traction use - the view is that they'll be recycled to other uses ...

[PeteS]

I use my hydrometer to top up the cells. It's easy to add a few mls at a time.

[blackrose]

There is a HUGE amount of work going on at the moment in battery design...

 

I'm sure there is, but I thought I'd made it quite clear that I was talking about the exterior design in terms of its convenience for the user.

[onionbargee]

I just took 175 kilos of dead batteries to be weighed in for scrap, and i'm thinking if there's so much lead still in them, albeit sulphated, couldn't they be designed differently and be de-sulphated and re used, until all the lead was used up ?

[ditchcrawler]

I just took 175 kilos of dead batteries to be weighed in for scrap, and i'm thinking if there's so much lead still in them, albeit sulphated, couldn't they be designed differently and be de-sulphated and re used, until all the lead was used up ?

When I was an apprentice boy my collage tutor told me that in his days working for the GPO exchange they lifted the plates out of the glass tank and clean the bottom of the tank, they also used a wooden scraper to clean the plates down.

I can only assume he was telling me the truth.

[Bob18]

Many industrial batteries that use wet cells have single point top up systems available. They are far from cheap, but they do mean the fitter doesn't have to clamber over the top of a 50 cell battery to check the levels he just has to plug the supply of water in and turn the tap....

As for designing a battery that will use all the lead - it would work, but its capacity at the end of its life would be very small

[bizzard]

When I was an apprentice boy my collage tutor told me that in his days working for the GPO exchange they lifted the plates out of the glass tank and clean the bottom of the tank, they also used a wooden scraper to clean the plates down.

I can only assume he was telling me the truth.

I once had a friend who worked at a big GPO research and development exchange in Hendon London and he reckoned they used ordinary tap water in these huge tanks. Their research had told them that the difference in the batteries life by not using distilled water was so small that it was not worth worrying about.

[mango]

 

You can get a watering system too.

 

http://www.usbattery.com/usb_watering_p1_main.html

 

I've always wondered if the bit of hose sticking out of the side of local milk floats was part of a system for automatically topping up the batteries.

[bizzard]

I've always wondered if the bit of hose sticking out of the side of local milk floats was part of a system for automatically topping up the batteries.

I reckon that was a hose from the milkfloats built in urinal. Early in the morning there's no public bogs open for the milkman to use.

[alan_fincher]

I reckon that was a hose from the milkfloats built in urinal. Early in the morning there's no public bogs open for the milkman to use.

Surely a non issue, as soon as they have collected a few "empties" ?

[bizzard]

Surely a non issue, as soon as they have collected a few "empties" ?

Or topped up any full'uns that have spilt some, they would be sold on as ''Gold top''.

[ditchcrawler]

I once had a friend who worked at a big GPO research and development exchange in Hendon London and he reckoned they used ordinary tap water in these huge tanks. Their research had told them that the difference in the batteries life by not using distilled water was so small that it was not worth worrying about.

My tutor told me the same, they had an unofficial agreement with the waterworks that they would let them know if they were dosing the water. Remember drinking water was different in those days with less treatment.

For those that don't know the scale of the batteries were a bit different that a small 110 boat battery.

[Keeping Up]

When I first worked for the GPO, my mate was up a ladder cleaning the windows inside the exchange, and he put his galvanised iron bucket down across a couple of handy metal bars that ran along the length of the exchange just below the windows. The resultant bang was quite impressive, and the whole building filled up with steam. He got promoted to toilet-cleaning duties after that (for putting the exchange off the air for 15 minutes, which was an unforgivable sin). Rumour has it that after 6 months of good work they gave him a brush.

 

Their bank of 24 batteries was designed so that they could be dismantled and refurbished, with the exchange running from the standby generator until the work was completed, although I'm not sure if that was ever done.

 

One feature of the setup was that where lower voltages such as 24v were needed, instead of having a different supply they started with the 50v rail and dropped it down to the required voltage by having "backing off batteries" which were reverse-connected so that the load caused them to charge up. They were swapped over regularly which meant that there was always a good supply of fully-charged batteries available which could be reconfigured to run the exchange if the standby generators should ever fail or run out of fuel.

 

ETA: there was a long list of rules to ensure you were spark-proof before you entered the battery room. They had special boots available with steel toe-caps but absolutely no metal on the outside that might strike a spark if you fell over.

Edited November 18, 2012 by Keeping Up

[bizzard]

My tutor told me the same, they had an unofficial agreement with the waterworks that they would let them know if they were dosing the water. Remember drinking water was different in those days with less treatment.

For those that don't know the scale of the batteries were a bit different that a small 110 boat battery.

I believe the battery tank at Hendon was about half the size of a full size swimming bath with overhead traveling tackle to hoist the plates in and out.

I filter rain water through an old tee shirt or underpants for topping up batteries, cooling systems ect. My cat won't drink anything else.

[mango]

I reckon that was a hose from the milkfloats built in urinal. Early in the morning there's no public bogs open for the milkman to use.

Definitely not. Batteries should be topped up with pure water and uric acid might not do them any good.

 

It's bad enough having sulphated batteries but ones with gout would be a real pain.

[ditchcrawler]

 

 

ETA: there was a long list of rules to ensure you were spark-proof before you entered the battery room. They had special boots available with steel toe-caps but absolutely no metal on the outside that might strike a spark if you fell over.

Same when I worked Offshore.

[RLWP]

The Lucas battery engineers would always top their batteries up with Birmingham tap water

 

Richard