To survey or not to survey

[blackrose]

Looks an excellent buy to me.

 

BUT

 

I've seen some appalling standards of workmanship on Liverpool boats of that vintage. LB just didn't seen to give a shit, anything to get the boat out the door and the money in the bank.

 

And LB are/were not the only builders guilty of such practices. I've also seen much more expensive Colecrafts and Tim Tylers with poor standards of workmanship. The latter actually admitted to someone I know who bought a sprayfoamed sailaway that they had been in a bit of a rush! LB may be more guilty, but since they produced far more boats during this period that is hardly surprising.

 

In addition, I see the price has been reduced, suggesting this boat has been sticking on the market despite a competitive price, so I'm deeply suspicious. Have you asked the vendor if anyone else has had a survey on it, and pulled out as a result? They are hardly going to volunteer this info....

 

So probably not worth asking the question then...

 

Why deeply suspicious? It's a very slow market at the moment - it can take a long time to sell any boat unless the vendor is prepared to reduce the price to a more realistic level.

Edited September 16, 2012 by blackrose

[Ally]

good decision, especially baring the hull builder in mind. Remember a survey will not only check the hull, unless asked just for a hull survey, but can do a full boat survey to include electrics, gas, and so forth....worthwhile.

[blackrose]

Hi mate

 

Be suprised if insurance company asks for a survey on a 6 year old boat. Ive never been asked by insurance company of a survey and my boats are always fully comp, and Ive had some old ones in the past

 

Tim

 

Perhaps I was thinking of older boats....?

[MtB]

And LB are/were not the only builders guilty of such practices. I've also seen much more expensive Colecrafts and Tim Tylers with poor standards of workmanship.

Because LB were serial offenders. For example New Boat Company used to have me carry out pre-delivery checks on the gas installations on all the LBs they sold out of Thames and Kennet marina. This was because they knew what they were like. NOT ONE SINGLE LB out of all those I tested had a gas-tight installation straight off the lorry. Most would have been death traps had the new owners just connected up a pair oif gas bottles and sailed away. I would sometime spend up to a whole day sometimes correcting the most basic of problems on any individual rand new boat. LBs clearly just did not care and just sent boats out of the factory untested. And that was with gas. Who knows what stuff they glossed over with less safety-critical stuff?

 

 

Why deeply suspicious? It's a very slow market at the moment - it can take a long time to sell any boat unless the vendor is prepared to reduce the price to a more realistic level.

 

The price is already too low for the spec and it has not sold, hence my suspicion.

[kryspduck]

I've just purchased a Liverpool Boats NB - 5 years old. Full survey showed an excellent hull with very little pitting and good electrics. Most of the problems were small and due to an amateur fit-out, which the seller paid for in the most part.

 

I looked at lots of boats from numerous manufacturers, talked to many people, some of which disliked Liverpool Boats, many of those had never owned one, or knew anyone that owned one - make your own mind up on that one!

 

LB do have a bad reputation amongst some boaters, time will tell if they're right or not. Boat depreciation may be an issue with LB but I already own a Citroen so I'm well aware of depreciating assets.

 

My advice as a newbie would be to get a full survey and then try to reconcile the heart vs head purchasing decision - good luck.

[Lady Muck]

Our boat was 4 years old when we bought her and yes we did have a survey - glad we did - it found several serious faults that we wouldn't have picked up ourselves and we managed to get the cost reduced to cover the cost of repairs - money well spent in my view

 

Same here - there were problems with our four year old boat too. We wouldn't have known otherwise.

[tillergirl]

Echoing Mike the Boilerman's advice and Ally's observations but not wanting to cast aspersions, we have a friend who has a 6 year old Liverpool boat and it appears that it may already needs some welding doing to the shell.

[Richard10002]

If you've never bought a boat, and don't know much about them, how will you know that there isn't a problem with the hull, or the rudder stock, or the wiring system, or the............

 

A surveyor might not find every little problem, and may even miss a big problem, but the chances are a million times higher that you will not find every little problem, and that you will miss every big problem, if there are any. A surveyor will look at everything he possibly can, and will test everything he can. You will not do that, even if you think you will. Even if the survey is OK, you will get a report that will recommend a number of maintenance items which will almost certainly be worth doing. You would not identify these things on your own, and they would get bigger and more expensive by the time they manifested themselves to the untrained eye.

 

If you don't have a survey, you are going to buy the boat and lift it out of the water. If there is a big problem, it could cost you thousands. If you decide to have a survey, you are going to pay for the survey, lift it out of the water, then buy it if the survey is OK. The only extra cost of having a survey, is the survey.

 

At about £10 per foot for a full survey, it's a small price to pay for some reassurance. If there is a big problem, then it will be money well spent, and you will either renegotiate the price, or you will decide not to buy. If there is no problem, the whole deal has cost a few hundred more than it might.

 

"We bought a boat without a survey, and it cost us £10,000 to get the bottom replated - I wish we'd had a survey!"

 

Hindsight will be a wonderful thing.

[Richard10002]

BTW it looks like a lovely boat, and very well priced. When we bought a year ago, our surveyor said that if we didn't buy it, he would! If there is little/nothing wrong with this boat, your surveyor might say something similar.

 

If I were you, I'd be offering the asking price, getting a deposit down, subject to survey, and getting it bought ASAP. If you're a bit cheeky, you might get it for £30,000.

[matty40s]

my only caveat with all this is,

 

 

BE THERE, and ASK QUESTIONS!!!

 

I employed a very reputable, well thought of and renowned Surveyor , (also previously a boat builder), he started far earler than I was aware he was starting, had almost everything finished when i got there, and gave me a report which was factual, but not in depth.

Being a new owner without any of the knowledge I have now, I was happy, as the boat was suitable for insuring and thus....my boat mortgage.

However, delving more deeply as the months and years go on, I look back on the report, and am amazed at how little he actually looked at/reported on,....... and how much I have to do.

[Philippe]

I am getting a survey as I have been convinced it would be a foolish saving not to get one.

 

The price on the brochure is a mistake and should read £39,950 not £33,950, which would be suspiciously cheap to me. It was only reduced a few days ago when I went to see it first and started out earlier in the year much higher. The seller seems a very straight guy to me but apparently refuses to negotiate price and has missed several opportunities for sales because of that. He's selling due to changed circumstances and the marina staff confirm that he's hardly been on the boat in the last year.

 

Having been out for a spin on the boat yesterday only reinforced my opinion that everything I can see appears to be in very good condition. The fit out is much better quality than many I have seen while looking for a boat and I like the minimal interior design as it gives me a lot of scope to put my personal stamp on the feel off the boat through furnishing and general clutter . The engine is really smooth, quiet and responsive with the boat handling nicely. Everything is very tidily fitted with pipework and cabling extremely neat, well laid out, easily accessible and nicely documented. Everything inside still feels and looks new and appears to my eye to be of pretty good quality.

 

The comments about Liverpool Boats have rather worried me, but the survey should turn up any issues with the hull and I'll deal with that one way or another if necessary.

 

I will be going ahead with the purchase subject to survey. Will keep you up to date of developments (hopefully all positive).

 

Getting very excited about all this now .

 

Phil

[Athy]

The engine is really smooth, quiet

Don't worry, the boat sounds good apart from that and you'll soon get used to it.

Seriously, don't worry too much about Liverpool comments. There are probably more Liverpool shells on the canals than anu other make, and I haven't seen one sunk yet.

Our last boat, Batto, was fitted out by Devizes Narrowboats on a Liverpool shell. Only when we sold her did we find out that the side deck on one side was an inch wider than the one on the other side! It did not seem to affect the handling though, we were always happy with the boat and only sold because we had the chance to upgrade to a more upmarket boat with a bigger thumpy engine!

[Philippe]

Don't worry, the boat sounds good apart from that and you'll soon get used to it.

Seriously, don't worry too much about Liverpool comments. There are probably more Liverpool shells on the canals than anu other make, and I haven't seen one sunk yet.

Our last boat, Batto, was fitted out by Devizes Narrowboats on a Liverpool shell. Only when we sold her did we find out that the side deck on one side was an inch wider than the one on the other side! It did not seem to affect the handling though, we were always happy with the boat and only sold because we had the chance to upgrade to a more upmarket boat with a bigger thumpy engine!

 

[starboardswimmer]

Thank you!

[blackrose]

Because LB were serial offenders. For example New Boat Company used to have me carry out pre-delivery checks on the gas installations on all the LBs they sold out of Thames and Kennet marina. This was because they knew what they were like. NOT ONE SINGLE LB out of all those I tested had a gas-tight installation straight off the lorry. Most would have been death traps had the new owners just connected up a pair oif gas bottles and sailed away. I would sometime spend up to a whole day sometimes correcting the most basic of problems on any individual rand new boat. LBs clearly just did not care and just sent boats out of the factory untested. And that was with gas. Who knows what stuff they glossed over with less safety-critical stuff?

 

Yes, with the fully fitted LBs then I'd agree. The more they did on a boat the more mistakes they made. I was thinking more about sailaways and in that case I've seen other boats from higher-end builders which weren't much better.

 

Echoing Mike the Boilerman's advice and Ally's observations but not wanting to cast aspersions, we have a friend who has a 6 year old Liverpool boat and it appears that it may already needs some welding doing to the shell.

 

That could be for a number of reasons. Perhaps it was left on shore power without any galvanic isolation, perhaps it was neglected. There's nothing wrong with most LB shells, mine is 7 years old and it's just as good as when it was new. LB never did a good blacking job on their boats and I was advised to get the boat out of the water within one year to black it properly.

[Naughty Cal]

Our boat was just under 5 years old when we bought it. We had it surveyed and the surveryor found a fair few faults. The cost of us rectifying these would have been far more than the cost of the survey. As it happened the boat was a stock boat so the broker fixed all of the problems highlighted in the survey if this had not been the case it would have given us some haggling room.

 

Aside from that our insurers also wanted an up to date survey of the boat.

 

For us it is a no brainer and we will always have our boats surveyed. Could save a lot of hassel and heart ache in the long run.

[Jackster]

Hmmm beginning to think that if you had a boat surveyed from new, would it reveal anything. MB comment about the gas lines is quite worrying.

[Philippe]

Quick update on the boat buying experience.

 

Sale agreed and deposit paid subject to survey. Survey arranged for the week after next. This is the earliest I could get the boat lifted anywhere close to the current mooring. If nothing serious turns up in the survey and the sale completes easily and quickly then I'll have the bottom blacked before it goes back into the water, saving additional lifting costs.

 

I'll be there for the survey to learn as much as I can and I also don't want to miss the chance to see a boat lifted for the first time!

 

Mounting excitement....

[Richard10002]

Who is the surveyor. Mine wouldn't let me on board while he did it, but he sat with me for a good 45 minutes after completion, and discussed all of the minor negatives he had found, and many of the major positives.

[Naughty Cal]

Hmmm beginning to think that if you had a boat surveyed from new, would it reveal anything. MB comment about the gas lines is quite worrying.

 

Some people employ a surveyor to watch over the construction of their new build boats.

[Arthur Brown]

As a novice the survey is a great idea, but the better idea is being there as the survey is done. You will need to know how your boat works, and the surveyor may be the best person to tell you, after all he is YOUR surveyor not the vendor or the seller's agent.

 

If you wan to black the bottom then have the boat out onto high trestles to get under it.

 

Consider getting a BSS done at the same time

[Athy]

Mounting excitement indeed, Philippe!

Good advice Arthur, yours is evidently not a crazy world.

[Philippe]

Who is the surveyor. Mine wouldn't let me on board while he did it, but he sat with me for a good 45 minutes after completion, and discussed all of the minor negatives he had found, and many of the major positives.

 

I'm using Steve Hand of Hands On Marine who was recommended by a couple of people in these forums.

 

Not sure whether he'll let me on the boat while it's happening or not. I can understand why a surveyor would be reluctant to do that, even if it's just that you'd get in the way. Even if not, I'll be able to watch from afar and the after survey chat will be invaluable.

 

As a novice the survey is a great idea, but the better idea is being there as the survey is done. You will need to know how your boat works, and the surveyor may be the best person to tell you, after all he is YOUR surveyor not the vendor or the seller's agent.

 

If you wan to black the bottom then have the boat out onto high trestles to get under it.

 

Consider getting a BSS done at the same time

 

I'm getting the marina to do the blacking so I assume they'll put the boat onto suitable supports.

 

Hadn't thought about the BSS as the current one runs for a little while yet. Definitely something to consider though. How long does one last for?

[Athy]

Four years.

[Philippe]

Four years.

 

Thanks!