IWA Calls For Action On 'Continuous Moorers'

[Timleech]

I'm not aware of anyone else requiring a legal definition.

 

Someone brought HMRC in, and council tax, though you say that it's irrelevant to councils.

 

Tim

[madcat]

Onionbargee Iam prepared to stand up be counted and shew my face, Iam not prepared to engage in armed struggle because I loathe violence. I do understand why people do but I don't wish to be part of it. If people feel powerless then they resort to increasingly desperate means. Nothing is more dangerous than a person with nothing to lose. a bit OTT for this topic but you made me think.

[nicknorman]

A Facebook friend has just been landed with a £250 bill for overstaying for 10 days on a London visitor mooring.

You don't say whether you think this is a good or bad thing, but surely if they just dumped their boat on a short term VM for 10 days, they deserve some grief? Unless of course there were exceptional circumstances that they should have notified to CRT.

[Lady Muck]

I think they know they are guilty as charged and they say they are paying up.

 

I was passing comment because it seems as if these threats of charges are now actually coming to fruition. Yes I heard of overstay charges in the past, know of someone stung for almost £1000 but they didn't move for nearly two years, but overstay charges like this for overstaying on the vms, not heard about this before.

 

ETA Victoria Park is 14 days afaicr

Edited April 24, 2013 by Lady Muck

[Higgs]

Someone brought HMRC in, and council tax, though you say that it's irrelevant to councils.

 

Tim

 

It's all very murky to me. There are such things as houseboat licences, though. This should be a reasonable basis for the definition of houseboat, having a licence as such.

[Joshua]

Contrary to some views on here, I believe the “legality” of CRT’s ‘management’ of the waterways is the most fundamental and the most important question.

The legal system of any society defines its political state, so laws designed to protect and further the interests of a minority define a sate of dictatorship whilst laws designed to maximise Liberté, égalité and fraternité for example, a sate of democracy.

Threads like this are perhaps so divisive because some of the protagonists are merely picking and choosing the laws they like, the ones that favour their lifestyle and ambitions, so if CRT are in fact acting as a dictatorship but the rules they are dictating favour a group of boaters, then that group of boaters will happily defend this state. Hence the “who cares if its illegal so long as the canals are ‘nice’ (a very subjective term) and we should all support them.

Personally, I would like to see a proper legal challenge to at least two of the main issues debated here.

Namely CRT’s use of Section 8 of the British Waterways Act 1983 and their use of Section 43 (3) of the 1962 Transport Act.

I fear that the waterways are being turned into a sterile theme park for a select group of weekend leisure boaters and I believe that CRT are acting contrary to all the accepted principles of fairness in a democratic state.

‘Fairness’ is not a woolly notion incapable of legal enforcement, the concept of natural justice lies at the core of our legal system and any democracy.

By simply not looking after the canals between urban and some rural places of interest and turning all of the latter into well run, well dredged 48 hour moorings, CRT can and in my view are, making it practically impossible to CC in the manner intended by the 1995 Act.

Taken to its extreme but logical conclusion, CRT could declare every mile of canal a 48hr mooring area simply by hammering rings into the ground every 50ft. Then they would have completely usurped the intention of Parliament and expelled from the canals nearly 5000 boaters. They don’t need to go that far though, they simply need to commandeer the mooring area’s people are most likely to want to use.

They are doing this right now using a law that predates the CCing rules by over 30 years and was in my view, never intended to be used in this way.

The use of Section 8 to exile a boater and confiscate his/her boat then neatly follows on from this.

Nobody reading the 83 Act and Section 8 in particular, could doubt that its purpose was to deal with sunken, stranded or abandoned boats because that is what it says it is for. If it is was intended to deal with boaters who merely fell foul of the terms of their licence, it would have said that too.

I read section 8 as a law to enable BW to prevent the waterways being used as a dumping ground for unwanted boats.

It is in my view, inconceivable that Parliament would today hand to CRT (or any other body) an unlimited and unfettered power to make someone homeless within 28 days without the independent sanction of a court and without providing a mechanism for even the basic right of appeal that natural justice dictates.

CRT claim that section 8 gives them this very power. One might argue, the act only allows them to remove a boat that is left on the waterways “without lawful authority”, so isn’t that fair?

Maybe, if being “without lawful authority” was decided by an independent arbitrator but it isn’t, its decided by CRT themselves again with no recourse to an appeal procedure before an independent arbitrator.

So how do you become “without lawful authority”, basically when CRT (again) decide to make you, by taking your licence off you.

They justify this by claiming (no independent appeal of course) that you are in breach of a version of section 17 of the 95 Act which not only have they rewritten to suit their ends but as the years go by unashamedly change to make more ‘effective’!

Recourse to the courts to get an order where the boat is also being used for residential purposes is entirely voluntary and CRT may well stop doing so.

I would like to see these issues challenged properly before it is too late and I will donate the first £100 to any fund raised to pay for the legal fees to do so.

[Dar Kuma]

Unfortunately the VAT is safe.

 

As a ccer your boat cannot be defined as a houseboat...

 

To me this doesn't make sense, If you can't inhabit your boat how are you meant to CC?

[Jerra]

That right already exists under the existing arrangements which begs the question why they have introduced something else that they now seem reluctant to carry through where people don't pay up.

I don't want to start an argument but Carlt categorically states they have no powers to withhold a license. Personally (not having read the laws/rules/regulations very closely) I can't see why the owner of something can't say "Sod off you haven't stuck to my rules I am not having you on my property any more".

[John Margetts]

Onionbargee Iam prepared to stand up be counted and shew my face, Iam not prepared to engage in armed struggle because I loathe violence. I do understand why people do but I don't wish to be part of it. If people feel powerless then they resort to increasingly desperate means. Nothing is more dangerous than a person with nothing to lose. a bit OTT for this topic but you made me think.

The trouble is that how long will it be in this country before armed struggle is the only way to fight against injustice? It might seem OTT now I agree but there is a terribly ominous direction that this country is taking as our rights and likelihoods are gradually eroded away. I think that this country will become unrecognisable to us living now within only a few generations. We are doing nothing to stop this and have a hopelessly naive view that somehow sense and goodwill will always prevail. It will not. There is a very real likelihood that if we allow this greed culture to follow it's intended and hellbent course, not only will there be no great society there most certainly won't be any waterways, public transport, jobs, NHS, schools, libraries, etc. There will be nothing but the smoldering remains of a forgotten species.

[Guest]

I don't want to start an argument but Carlt categorically states they have no powers to withhold a license. Personally (not having read the laws/rules/regulations very closely) I can't see why the owner of something can't say "Sod off you haven't stuck to my rules I am not having you on my property any more".

I agree with that sentiment however Carl may be correct I don't know either way tbh but it seems it has changed.

Edited April 24, 2013 by The Dog House

[onionbargee]

The trouble is that how long will it be in this country before armed struggle is the only way to fight against injustice? It might seem OTT now I agree but there is a terribly ominous direction that this country is taking as our rights and likelihoods are gradually eroded away. I think that this country will become unrecognisable to us living now within only a few generations. We are doing nothing to stop this and have a hopelessly naive view that somehow sense and goodwill will always prevail. It will not. There is a very real likelihood that if we allow this greed culture to follow it's intended and hellbent course, not only will there be no great society there most certainly won't be any waterways, public transport, jobs, NHS, schools, libraries, etc. There will be nothing but the smoldering remains of a forgotten species.

[dew]

Which law are they breaking? Which rights?

Harassment and stalking are against the law.

[bowten]

 

Contrary to some views on here, I believe the “legality” of CRT’s ‘management’ of the waterways is the most fundamental and the most important question.

The legal system of any society defines its political state, so laws designed to protect and further the interests of a minority define a sate of dictatorship whilst laws designed to maximise Liberté, égalité and fraternité for example, a sate of democracy.

Threads like this are perhaps so divisive because some of the protagonists are merely picking and choosing the laws they like, the ones that favour their lifestyle and ambitions, so if CRT are in fact acting as a dictatorship but the rules they are dictating favour a group of boaters, then that group of boaters will happily defend this state. Hence the “who cares if its illegal so long as the canals are ‘nice’ (a very subjective term) and we should all support them.

Personally, I would like to see a proper legal challenge to at least two of the main issues debated here.

Namely CRT’s use of Section 8 of the British Waterways Act 1983 and their use of Section 43 (3) of the 1962 Transport Act.

I fear that the waterways are being turned into a sterile theme park for a select group of weekend leisure boaters and I believe that CRT are acting contrary to all the accepted principles of fairness in a democratic state.

‘Fairness’ is not a woolly notion incapable of legal enforcement, the concept of natural justice lies at the core of our legal system and any democracy.

By simply not looking after the canals between urban and some rural places of interest and turning all of the latter into well run, well dredged 48 hour moorings, CRT can and in my view are, making it practically impossible to CC in the manner intended by the 1995 Act.

Taken to its extreme but logical conclusion, CRT could declare every mile of canal a 48hr mooring area simply by hammering rings into the ground every 50ft. Then they would have completely usurped the intention of Parliament and expelled from the canals nearly 5000 boaters. They don’t need to go that far though, they simply need to commandeer the mooring area’s people are most likely to want to use.

They are doing this right now using a law that predates the CCing rules by over 30 years and was in my view, never intended to be used in this way.

The use of Section 8 to exile a boater and confiscate his/her boat then neatly follows on from this.

Nobody reading the 83 Act and Section 8 in particular, could doubt that its purpose was to deal with sunken, stranded or abandoned boats because that is what it says it is for. If it is was intended to deal with boaters who merely fell foul of the terms of their licence, it would have said that too.

I read section 8 as a law to enable BW to prevent the waterways being used as a dumping ground for unwanted boats.

It is in my view, inconceivable that Parliament would today hand to CRT (or any other body) an unlimited and unfettered power to make someone homeless within 28 days without the independent sanction of a court and without providing a mechanism for even the basic right of appeal that natural justice dictates.

CRT claim that section 8 gives them this very power. One might argue, the act only allows them to remove a boat that is left on the waterways “without lawful authority”, so isn’t that fair?

Maybe, if being “without lawful authority” was decided by an independent arbitrator but it isn’t, its decided by CRT themselves again with no recourse to an appeal procedure before an independent arbitrator.

So how do you become “without lawful authority”, basically when CRT (again) decide to make you, by taking your licence off you.

They justify this by claiming (no independent appeal of course) that you are in breach of a version of section 17 of the 95 Act which not only have they rewritten to suit their ends but as the years go by unashamedly change to make more ‘effective’!

Recourse to the courts to get an order where the boat is also being used for residential purposes is entirely voluntary and CRT may well stop doing so.

I would like to see these issues challenged properly before it is too late and I will donate the first £100 to any fund raised to pay for the legal fees to do so.

I would also add to a fund an amount of £100.

 

The trouble is that how long will it be in this country before armed struggle is the only way to fight against injustice? It might seem OTT now I agree but there is a terribly ominous direction that this country is taking as our rights and likelihoods are gradually eroded away. I think that this country will become unrecognisable to us living now within only a few generations. We are doing nothing to stop this and have a hopelessly naive view that somehow sense and goodwill will always prevail. It will not. There is a very real likelihood that if we allow this greed culture to follow it's intended and hellbent course, not only will there be no great society there most certainly won't be any waterways, public transport, jobs, NHS, schools, libraries, etc. There will be nothing but the smoldering remains of a forgotten species.

I have been coming to this conclusion for some years now.

[bowten]

I have my own story to tell and it is quite horrendous how I have been treated.I have not quite come to terms with what as recently happened concerning my moorings,a place I have had a boat for over 13 years.I was given 7 days notice to quit by the new landowner and I am now a CCer and have been for the last 2 days.The future is uncertain.

[dew]

I have my own story to tell and it is quite horrendous how I have been treated.I have not quite come to terms with what as recently happened concerning my moorings,a place I have had a boat for over 13 years.I was given 7 days notice to quit by the new landowner and I am now a CCer and have been for the last 2 days.The future is uncertain.

Sorry to hear about your situation. Name and shame the pig lol

[kris88]

bowten sorry to hear of your troubles

 

regards kris

 

ps its not to bad being a ccer

[Grace and Favour]

The trouble is that how long will it be in this country before armed struggle is the only way to fight against injustice? It might seem OTT now I agree but there is a terribly ominous direction that this country is taking as our rights and likelihoods are gradually eroded away. I think that this country will become unrecognisable to us living now within only a few generations. We are doing nothing to stop this and have a hopelessly naive view that somehow sense and goodwill will always prevail. It will not. There is a very real likelihood that if we allow this greed culture to follow it's intended and hellbent course, not only will there be no great society there most certainly won't be any waterways, public transport, jobs, NHS, schools, libraries, etc. There will be nothing but the smoldering remains of a forgotten species.

Excellent suggestion - -

 

May I suggest that you start your armed struggle in Lewisham - where you will not be the only armed person, and at least the Police force have a degree of practice of how to handle armed folks.

[churchward]

The trouble is that how long will it be in this country before armed struggle is the only way to fight against injustice? It might seem OTT now I agree but there is a terribly ominous direction that this country is taking as our rights and likelihoods are gradually eroded away. I think that this country will become unrecognisable to us living now within only a few generations. We are doing nothing to stop this and have a hopelessly naive view that somehow sense and goodwill will always prevail. It will not. There is a very real likelihood that if we allow this greed culture to follow it's intended and hellbent course, not only will there be no great society there most certainly won't be any waterways, public transport, jobs, NHS, schools, libraries, etc. There will be nothing but the smoldering remains of a forgotten species.

My word this thread takes some twists and turns.

 

"within a few generations" lets think about that. Statistically a generation is aprox 25 years give or take a few could mean 3 or 4. so covering maybe 75 to 100 years. Someone from 1913 may well regard our society today as unrecognisable when I think about what it was like as a child in the 1960s it seems very different to now. The folk in 1913 only had a short while before the horrors of WWI was to begin. So I agree it is likely to be more differnt in the future. I do not agree it means a downturn it will be just different. The only thing one can be reasonably sure of is that anyones attempt at forecasting the future beyond the short term is doomed to be wrong.

 

This country has a very long way to go before it comes even close to the freedoms we enjoy being eroded away and become bad enough to require violent resistence to a regime such as that in Egypt just now. Against what is going on there and other places in the world such comments as yours starts to look like the screams of a spoilt child unaware of how priviliged a life it leads.

 

Interesting to see on the news this evening a piece on how violent crime is a decreasing trend in this country even in the big cities like London.

 

In anycase if it all goes wrong it will not be the mysterious "them" that did the deed but it will be the fault of the society and its citizens that let them do it.

Edited April 24, 2013 by churchward

[DeanS]

I have my own story to tell and it is quite horrendous how I have been treated.I have not quite come to terms with what as recently happened concerning my moorings,a place I have had a boat for over 13 years.I was given 7 days notice to quit by the new landowner and I am now a CCer and have been for the last 2 days.The future is uncertain.

Ian.

 

sorry to hear this. Feel free to make use of my mooring in Manchester for a few months if you like. I'll only be using it for 2 weeks in June...other than that it's standing empty for months.

[churchward]

I have my own story to tell and it is quite horrendous how I have been treated.I have not quite come to terms with what as recently happened concerning my moorings,a place I have had a boat for over 13 years.I was given 7 days notice to quit by the new landowner and I am now a CCer and have been for the last 2 days.The future is uncertain.

Sorry to hear of your problems. Good luck in finding a solution and a new mooring.

 

Ian.

 

sorry to hear this. Feel free to make use of my mooring in Manchester for a few months if you like. I'll only be using it for 2 weeks in June...other than that it's standing empty for months.

That is very generous of you. What a kind offer.

[bowten]

Ian.

 

sorry to hear this. Feel free to make use of my mooring in Manchester for a few months if you like. I'll only be using it for 2 weeks in June...other than that it's standing empty for months.

It is indeed very generous,I will send a pm tomorrow Dean.Edited to add a greenie.

Edited April 24, 2013 by bowten

[MtB]

Ian.

 

sorry to hear this. Feel free to make use of my mooring in Manchester for a few months if you like. I'll only be using it for 2 weeks in June...other than that it's standing empty for months.

 

Funny but I was only thinking about this sort 'lending out' of a mooring today as I drove home from work. CRT specifically forbid this IIRC, assuming yours is a CRT mooring. Seems perverse to me.

 

MtB

[bowten]

bowten sorry to hear of your troubles

 

regards kris

 

ps its not to bad being a ccer

Cheers, I am sure I will soon get used to it.

[Lady Muck]

Funny but I was only thinking about this sort 'lending out' of a mooring today as I drove home from work. CRT specifically forbid this IIRC, assuming yours is a CRT mooring. Seems perverse to me.

 

MtB

They say they do, but I've done this with my wardens permission three times now, when we've been away for over three months at a time. It's bonkers to have moorings sitting unused in places like London. Plus I need someone to cut the grass. I think it's a good deal, tbh, free mooring, just keep my garden tidy.

[Dar Kuma]

no comment to Lady Muck, anything I say concerning the trimming of a certain bush might land me in trouble...