council tax for liveaboards

[magpie patrick]

But surely, if a prostitute stands on a street corner and can be arrested and fined, how can the establishment also claim right to claim tax. Any right to tax must be based on defined rules, to establish obligation and liability under the law, at some point. ???

 

Wading in with a moment to spare...

 

A Local Authority CAN charge council tax on a mooring that is not residential, although most choose not to do so. However any LA that does this and then takes enforcement action against the residential use is asking for trouble, a demand for Council Tax on the basis the mooring is used as a residence would be prima facea evidence of the use as a residence being accepted.

 

One difficulty is it is the mooring, not the boat, that is liable, hence the reason why tenure comes into the equation. The fact that the boat is residential does not automatically make the mooring thus.

 

And as has been stated, the local authority have to offset the element they decide is residential against their business rates.

[mayalld]

Wading in with a moment to spare...

 

A Local Authority CAN charge council tax on a mooring that is not residential, although most choose not to do so. However any LA that does this and then takes enforcement action against the residential use is asking for trouble, a demand for Council Tax on the basis the mooring is used as a residence would be prima facea evidence of the use as a residence being accepted.

 

 

Quite so.

 

The fact that no permission exists doesn't stop them charging. The fact that they charge may tie their hands and stop them enforcing against use without PP

[sueb]

And the RBOA know what's what with regards to CT, inside out and back to front, in plain and simple language?

 

Please react to some of the concerns here and you may get some extra members.

The answer to the first question is yes.

I am just a normal member and not involved with recruitment in any way. I am just giving advice the same as the others here. It does seem as though people want info for free and are happy to receive dodgy information. £21 is little to pay for correct info and to help the organisation that is helping boaters

[carlt]

The answer to the first question is yes.

I am just a normal member and not involved with recruitment in any way. I am just giving advice the same as the others here. It does seem as though people want info for free and are happy to receive dodgy information. £21 is little to pay for correct info and to help the organisation that is helping boaters

The RBOA do not have the correct information, though.

 

They merely offer an interpretation of the information available and they are no more or less informed than many members here, willing to provide advice and information for free.

 

Some of the RBOA's opinions and advice is distinctly dodgy and is based on prejudice, rather than expertise or experience.

 

And the RBOA know what's what with regards to CT, inside out and back to front, in plain and simple language?

 

No. They are a club, that's all.

[Grace and Favour]

The answer to the first question is yes.

I am just a normal member and not involved with recruitment in any way. I am just giving advice the same as the others here. It does seem as though people want info for free and are happy to receive dodgy information. £21 is little to pay for correct info and to help the organisation that is helping boaters

 

Your quite right, Sueb - - many people DO want information for free - - customers of the interweb are fast becoming used to the fact that they can spend a little time, (Google!) and come up with answers - - sometimes the answers are even right -

 

One of the key values of CWDF is that advice is often given in bucketsful, and although debated quite vigorously sometimes (!), good advice can normally be distilled

 

 

 

(There are also a number of folks who even find searching on Google too much effort - and simply expect others to do it for them, though I don't feel that's the case with this thread of course)

[KevMc]

There are also a number of folks who even find searching on Google too much effort - and simply expect others to do it for them, though I don't feel that's the case with this thread of course

 

Could one of you good peeople please submit an application to the RBOA for me please .... it's Friday and I'm winding down for the weekend

[Keeping Up]

Also as a non-residential boat owner, it would seem highly odd for me to pay to belong to RBOA. Consequently when the local Council wanted me to pay council tax on my non-residential mooring, the combined knowledge base of CWDF seemed to me a far more attractive option.

[Higgs]

Could one of you good peeople please submit an application to the RBOA for me please .... it's Friday and I'm winding down for the weekend

 

 

Please send me a cheque for £45.00 - I'm your sucker.

[Tacet]

 

A Local Authority CAN charge council tax on a mooring that is not residential, although most choose not to do so.

 

Convince me. It might depend on what you mean by "not residential" but unless the mooring was previously liable for CT or vacant and available for residential use I can't see it at the moment.

 

However any LA that does this and then takes enforcement action against the residential use is asking for trouble, a demand for Council Tax on the basis the mooring is used as a residence would be prima facea evidence of the use as a residence being accepted

 

Up to a point, but the necessary period for immunity from enforcement action would also have to have passed. CT can be levied from day 1

 

One difficulty is it is the mooring, not the boat, that is liable....

Yes - but to be clear, this does not mean that the boat cannot form part of the (valuation) assessment.

Edited July 6, 2012 by Ian Bingham

[sueb]

Also as a non-residential boat owner, it would seem highly odd for me to pay to belong to RBOA. Consequently when the local Council wanted me to pay council tax on my non-residential mooring, the combined knowledge base of CWDF seemed to me a far more attractive option.

This thread is refering to liveaboards. I agree you wouldn't want to join rboa but there are other organisations

[KevMc]

Please send me a cheque for £45.00 - I'm your sucker.

Let's not rely on snail mail, why don't I just pay the money directly into your account

eta: oops forgot smiley :-P

Edited July 6, 2012 by KevMc

[Higgs]

Yes - but to be clear, this does not mean that the boat cannot form part of the (valuation) assessment.

 

I wish someone's mind could be made up.

 

Either the mooring is residential or it isn't? If it's non-residential it can still be charged CT, but because of planning permission pitfalls, the council probably won't.

 

This is all very convenient for the council and, it seems, a bit arbitrary.

 

I've been resident on my vistor's mooring for 20 months with the knowledge of the local council. I would like to sign a longterm contract, which would save £11.00 a month. A line on the contract stops me taking one out - "the boat is not your main place of residence", or roughly those words.

 

If there is a defined length of time that a visitor becomes a resident, I have not been made aware of it. In my opinion there can only be one true definition of a residential mooring; it's a residential mooring, and you move onto it as a resident. You move onto a visitor's mooring until deciding to leave or you're are kicked off - time limit or whatever.

 

Let's not rely on snail mail, why don't I just pay the money directly into your account

eta: oops forgot smiley :-P

 

[Smelly]

a "residential" mooring, for these purposes, is a misnomer... Either it is a hereditament or it isn't. Either the LA use their discretion to charge a valued dwelling or they don't. Theoretically they could charge every mooring but that would defeat the policy intent and cripple C&rt so that won't happen.

 

After the action that RBOA publicised in the early noughties which popularised the "moved at any time" clause which was perceived to evade CT liability, the regulations someone has quoted above were written; deeming certain moorings to be hereditaments.

 

The nature of said moorings is the critical factor and whether a pontoon is in sole use by custom, rather than by any contractual right, is now material. I do wonder whether there are grounds in challenging an entry where there are a lot of boats fastened to one pontoon.

 

There has evidently been a policy shift toward charging boaters council tax.

 

Where there has been an entry of the valuation list, people have 6 months from the date of notification to challenge it.

 

You need to write to the valuation office and request a proposal form upon which you can supply your grounds for challenging the new entry.

 

Don't forget though, that your first priority is to pay up while the challenge is ongoing; liability proceedings will become a foregone conclusion if you don't and a lot of people don't like magistrate's court proceedings being brought against them.

 

I would suggest that anyone levied a charge instigates proceedings to challenge the entry. There might then be consideration of re-instating the 50% deduction that used to apply. That to my mind would be fair!

Edited July 7, 2012 by Smelly

[Higgs]

a "residential" mooring, for these purposes, is a misnomer... Either it is a hereditament or it isn't. Either the LA use their discretion to charge a valued dwelling or they don't.

 

There has evidently been a policy shift toward charging boaters council tax.

 

 

We are already charged by one measurement, ie the length of boat. We are already charged for floating on C&RT water, in a marina or out on the cut.

 

All liveaboards are within some council authority and may need services. What's the difference between long stayers in one place in one authority and CC'ers? Everyone has to live somewhere and for some it's on a boat and stationary, and others it's on a boat and moving.

 

Will the councils also consider charging CT for camper vans. Maybe someone's home, but road tax paid for, parking space paid for, etc.

 

CT is primarily a housing tax for houses, it is not appropriate for boats. If I remember rightly, it was once called community tax and was linked to the payment of Common Market obligations.

 

Just thinking aloud.

[Ally]

Yes, we have wondered about the 'several boats on one mooring' bit, ie one pontoon fixed to the land, with fingers off to take a large number of boats....I wonder if anyone has any constructive thoughts about that situation as against land side moorings?

[Higgs]

Yes, we have wondered about the 'several boats on one mooring' bit, ie one pontoon fixed to the land, with fingers off to take a large number of boats....I wonder if anyone has any constructive thoughts about that situation as against land side moorings?

 

Is anything off limits to the CT? When the words theoretically and discretionary have been used, it seems very hard to pin down a definitive rule.

Edited July 7, 2012 by Higgs

[Smelly]

We are already charged by one measurement, ie the length of boat. We are already charged for floating on C&RT water, in a marina or out on the cut.

 

All liveaboards are within some council authority and may need services. What's the difference between long stayers in one place in one authority and CC'ers? Everyone has to live somewhere and for some it's on a boat and stationary, and others it's on a boat and moving.

 

Will the councils also consider charging CT for camper vans. Maybe someone's home, but road tax paid for, parking space paid for, etc.

 

CT is primarily a housing tax for houses, it is not appropriate for boats. If I remember rightly, it was once called community tax and was linked to the payment of Common Market obligations.

 

Just thinking aloud.

 

Council tax has always been chargeable on caravan sites, traveller encampments and the like. The 50% rate used to apply to them too...

 

Is anything off limits to the CT?

 

Tents! But not benders nor yurts.

 

HTH

 

When the words theoretically and discretionary have been used, it seems very hard to pin down a definitive rule.

 

"will" "should" and "may" are very important words in this context...

 

As an aside; if anyone has any thoughts on the operation of the "may" at reg 54 of the ESA regs when viewed against the "should" at reg 61 I'd be grateful... It's been more of a headache to me this week than last night's Bateman's.

 

And finally... I suspect the wholesale levy of Council Tax will be the most important thing to happen to residential boaters in nearly two decades.

 

In it's discussion we should be careful to delineate conjecture and fact for fear of misleading observers as well as misdirecting the conclusions.

Edited July 7, 2012 by Smelly

[Higgs]

Council tax has always been chargeable on caravan sites, traveller encampments and the like. The 50% rate used to apply to them too...

 

 

 

Tents! But not benders nor yurts.

 

HTH

 

 

 

"will" "should" and "may" are very important words in this context...

 

As an aside; if anyone has any thoughts on the operation of the "may" at reg 54 of the ESA regs when viewed against the "should" at reg 61 I'd be grateful... It's been more of a headache to me this week than last night's Bateman's.

 

And finally... I suspect the wholesale levy of Council Tax will be the most important thing to happen to residential boaters in nearly two decades.

 

In it's discussion we should be careful to delineate conjecture and fact for fear of misleading observers as well as misdirecting the conclusions.

 

Where can one go to kick up a fuss and follow whatever may be happening. Are boaters in anyway able to have a hearing. Anyone working on the boaters' behalf. Is this a steamroller job in motion?

[Smelly]

Where can one go to kick up a fuss and follow whatever may be happening. Are boaters in anyway able to have a hearing. Anyone working on the boaters' behalf. Is this a steamroller job in motion?

 

1) Your MP, but beware short shrift because we all use schools and street lighting.

2) An appeal against the entry on the valuation list will end in a hearing which one can choose to be part of

3) Yes; I suspect it is but when we look carefully at the ethics and more to the point the firemen putting burning boats out etc then maybe it's due.

[Tuscan]

1) Your MP, but beware short shrift because we all use schools and street lighting.

2) An appeal against the entry on the valuation list will end in a hearing which one can choose to be part of

3) Yes; I suspect it is but when we look carefully at the ethics and more to the point the firemen putting burning boats out etc then maybe it's due.

 

 

 

 

I agree , seems unfair only in the context that like all taxes it only capture the law abiding. Hopefully the valuations will be set at sensible levels that reflect the lifestyle, hopefully some valuation appeals will establish some sensible precedents.

[Higgs]

1) Your MP, but beware short shrift because we all use schools and street lighting.

2) An appeal against the entry on the valuation list will end in a hearing which one can choose to be part of

3) Yes; I suspect it is but when we look carefully at the ethics and more to the point the firemen putting burning boats out etc then maybe it's due.

 

Then I see no difference in residential and any other liveaboard. We all live in a council authority. And if it isn't the same for all liveaboards (CC'ers) then many more will become CC'ers. Maybe liveaboard narrowboats will be a class regardless, and be taxable.

[Rebotco]

I can see no reason that liveaboards should not pay Council Tax, whether "Cruisers" or "Moorers".

Everyone uses a number of these public services and its only right we should all contribute towards the costs.

Here are some examples:-

 

• Local Roads

• Footpaths

• Stormwater drainage & reuse

• Parks and gardens

• Street lighting

• On street parking

• Traffic management

• Reserves and picnic areas

• Recreation facilities and centres

• Ovals

• Public swimming pools

• Rubbish collection and disposal

• Recycling

• Information services

• Free internet in libraries

• Community centres

• Skate parks

• Community development programs

• Arts and cultural programs

• Online services

• Community services such as Home and

Community Care

• Employment/Training Programs

• Economic Development

• Tourism information and support

• Community buses

• Environmental management

• Festivals and events

• Youth Advisory Committees

• Caravan Parks

• Cemeteries

• Wetlands

• Local Museums and Heritage support

• Coastcare and Dunecare projects

• Business support

• Local Area Water Catchment Plans

• Landcare programs

• Dry zones

• Aged care

• Cycling tracks

• Crime prevention

• Community leadership and advocacy

• Community Wastewater Management

Systems (CWMS)

[Tuscan]

Then I see no difference in residential and any other liveaboard. We all live in a council authority. And if it isn't the same for all liveaboards (CC'ers) then many more will become CC'ers. Maybe liveaboard narrowboats will be a class regardless, and be taxable.

 

 

Potentially you are right , and the only way to collect would be through the license and I don't want to go there. What's needed is a universally accepted definition of residential that cuts through the crap of dodgy definitions like daily user. I imagine CART would not want this on their plate early on.

[Smelly]

Hopefully the valuations will be set at sensible levels that reflect the lifestyle,

 

Won't happen... Valuations are banded; boats are band A regardless. It's all or nowt as far as we're concerned. I think it's about 970 where I am now. That's about a ton more than my licence!

 

Potentially you are right , and the only way to collect would be through the license and I don't want to go there. What's needed is a universally accepted definition of residential that cuts through the crap of dodgy definitions like daily user. I imagine CART would not want this on their plate early on.

 

It's not the boating that needs better definition it's the Local Government Finance Acts. Potentially every boat, residential or otherwise could attract a liability... Think holiday cottages!

[Higgs]

Won't happen... Valuations are banded; boats are band A regardless. It's all or nowt as far as we're concerned. I think it's about 970 where I am now. That's about a ton more than my licence!

 

It's not the boating that needs better definition it's the Local Government Finance Acts. Potentially every boat, residential or otherwise could attract a liability... Think holiday cottages!

 

Well we can all be means tested and apply for housing benefit/council tax relief. If it's going to be so blunt.

Edited July 7, 2012 by Higgs