Care of lock infrastructure

[nicknorman]

Waited at a lock today behind an empty large woolwich, struck up a conversation with the nice man, whom I asked if he worked the boat. The answer was yes, so I foolishly asked him if it was his hobby! A frosty response indicated that it was part time work, and full time if he could get it, mostly carrying coal. I noted that the hold was sparkling clean so not sure when coal had last been carried. Anyway his missus was very pleasant and laughed when I explained my faux pas.

 

On entering the lock from above, he jumped off and wrapped the rope around the gate post in the old boatman style to pull the gate closed. In my biggest mistake of the day I was looking the wrong way at the critical time, but the story is that he was standing on the gate ledge, rather than the boat, and missus had already fully opened the bottom paddle with the gate still mostly open, so gate closed with a tremendous bang, catapaulting Mr Boatman spreadeagled over the lock gate, rope trapped in the now closed gate, and worst of all, his hat in the water! In fact I think he was lucky not to be in the water himself and/or injured.

 

I waited for the boat to ram the bottom gates before I opened the second bottom paddle. I suppose an unloaded woolwich is not that heavy, but ramming the gates like that in a loaded boat would surely be putting big strain on them.

 

Don't get me wrong, these folk were nice people to talk to and all credit to them for working the canals for, I am sure, very little money, however I did feel there was an element of showing off since there were about 4 other people (queuing boaters) available to help them, and whilst showing off is one thing, showing off and having it all go horribly wrong is quite another. At least he regained his cool rapidly to his credit.

 

Anyway, I know that in the "good old days" working boats will have pulled the gate shut and used the bottom paddles to assist closing, used the bottom gates to stop the boat etc, but also in those days there were tolls and the canal companies employed a multitude of maintenance staff paid out of their considerable profits. But should working boaters still behave in this way, in this day and age of an aging, delicate and undermaintained system? Is it one rule for them and another for the rest of us?

[Tuscan]

Your right a fully loaded traditional craft will do far more damage to the lock gates than an empty Woolwich., just stay a bit longer and you will no doubt witness it. One of the joys of the canal is watching the many varieties of boats and personalities from the brass polishers to the working boat hobbyists.

[Chris Pink]

 

Anyway, I know that in the "good old days" working boats will have pulled the gate shut and used the bottom paddles to assist closing, used the bottom gates to stop the boat etc, but also in those days there were tolls and the canal companies employed a multitude of maintenance staff paid out of their considerable profits. But should working boaters still behave in this way, in this day and age of an aging, delicate and undermaintained system? Is it one rule for them and another for the rest of us?

 

To try and draw a generalisation from one person's incompetence would be a mistake I believe.

 

The abuse of locks back in the day may have occurred but would not have been the norm. it's not that difficult, if you do it often enough to stop a motor boat within a few inches of the gate. And the usual way to close a gate is to step off the boat when you are level with the balance beam and lean on it, it will then be shut by the time the boat has come to a complete stop.

 

But I do detect a delight in your post at this person's discomfiture and I gather by this that you never make mistakes. i am impressed.

[nicknorman]

 

But I do detect a delight in your post at this person's discomfiture and I gather by this that you never make mistakes. i am impressed.

Hi Chris, I knew someone would bite and most likely you! But do try to think of something more original than "nobody may comment on anyone else's misdeeds unless they have led a perfect life and will shortly transcend to pure spirit form" since as you well know, fortunately the world is not like that. If I did something as daft as that I would be fully prepared to receive the derision I would deserve.

 

It was very funny to see though (allegedly, since as I said I missed the critical moment) and enhanced by the fact that 2 seconds previously one of the waiting amateur boaters had said to him "Great to see that you know all the old tricks".

 

But also a serious note since these folk particular folk seemed to be setting themselves above the shiny-boat others by thinking they have no duty of care to the system just because they have an empty working boat, and the 'I'm a real boatman' facade makes it difficult for others to point out the error of their ways.

[Chris Pink]

Well there is the difference between us.

 

I don't expect people to be perfect and wouldn't crow about their mistakes - unless they combined that with overweening arrogance and then it would the combination not the mistake itself.

 

"funny to see" - what if he had injured himself? you would have really have split your sides then.

 

I don't expect my mistakes to be treated with derision and I would treat anybody else the way I would like to be treated.

 

But do feel free to continue your life with your superiority intact and your nose in the air.

[nicknorman]

Well there is the difference between us.

 

I don't expect people to be perfect and wouldn't crow about their mistakes - unless they combined that with overweening arrogance and then it would the combination not the mistake itself.

 

"funny to see" - what if he had injured himself? you would have really have split your sides then.

 

I don't expect my mistakes to be treated with derision and I would treat anybody else the way I would like to be treated.

 

But do feel free to continue your life with your superiority intact and your nose in the air.

As you mention, it was the combination of the "I'm a real boatman" pose in conjunction with the mistake that was funny, not the mistake in isolation.

 

I'm sorry if I have offended you by finding the whole event funny, but please do feel free to continue your life with your moral superiority intact and your nose in the air at people who find an appropriate comeuppance funny.

 

Now how do I set the "ignore" feature?...

[Tam & Di]

 

On entering the lock from above, he jumped off and wrapped the rope around the gate post in the old boatman style to pull the gate closed. In my biggest mistake of the day I was looking the wrong way at the critical time, but the story is that he was standing on the gate ledge, rather than the boat, and missus had already fully opened the bottom paddle with the gate still mostly open, so gate closed with a tremendous bang, catapaulting Mr Boatman spreadeagled over the lock gate, rope trapped in the now closed gate, and worst of all, his hat in the water! In fact I think he was lucky not to be in the water himself and/or injured.

 

I waited for the boat to ram the bottom gates before I opened the second bottom paddle. I suppose an unloaded woolwich is not that heavy, but ramming the gates like that in a loaded boat would surely be putting big strain on them.

 

 

I'm not sure I altogether understand your description. Certainly some locks such as the 30/12 on the Worcester Birmingham have (had? not been there for a long time now) the mitre post on the top gates extended some 12" or more proud of the top of the gate and with iron fender strips exactly in order for a boat to strap itself in and tow the gate closed. However the norm would be to take a turn around it from the counter as the boat came in, rather than stepping off to do it. However it is easy to get side-tracked when surrounded by gongoozlers and it sounds as if something like this happened to the unfortunate with the Woolwich. We were only in at the end of regular freight carriage, and although we always used the canals hard we were well aware of the distinction between hard use and abuse.

 

We have on occasion slammed a gate closed to send a flush up a pound to get a loaded boat off the bottom as being more effective than trying to actually fill the pound up to its correct level, but that would be an exception and done to save water, and not something we would do in the normal course of events such as you describe. We've also used the boats to push the top gates open often enough, but ramming them to stop the boat sounds a bit unnecessary. On the other hand we would never allow idle bystanders to assist except with very clear instruction - they can cause a lot of grief by doing things that are not required otherwise, and indeed we did have the butty elum broken when one such helpful ******** took the mast line off before I could prevent him, and allowed the butty to crash back into the cill.

[Iain_S]

(snip)

On entering the lock from above, he jumped off and wrapped the rope around the gate post in the old boatman style to pull the gate closed. In my biggest mistake of the day I was looking the wrong way at the critical time, but the story is that he was standing on the gate ledge, rather than the boat, and missus had already fully opened the bottom paddle with the gate still mostly open, so gate closed with a tremendous bang, catapaulting Mr Boatman spreadeagled over the lock gate, rope trapped in the now closed gate, and worst of all, his hat in the water! In fact I think he was lucky not to be in the water himself and/or injured.

 

I waited for the boat to ram the bottom gates before I opened the second bottom paddle.(snip)

 

All part of the learning process, I suppose. Next time, slower approach, slower on bottom paddle, and quicker on the rope

 

I have seen this technique go wrong as well : rope was on towpath side dolly, so top gate didn't shut, just rocked alarmingly on is hinge

 

Iain

[nicknorman]

I'm not sure I altogether understand your description. Certainly some locks such as the 30/12 on the Worcester Birmingham have (had? not been there for a long time now) the mitre post on the top gates extended some 12" or more proud of the top of the gate and with iron fender strips exactly in order for a boat to strap itself in and tow the gate closed. However the norm would be to take a turn around it from the counter as the boat came in, rather than stepping off to do it. However it is easy to get side-tracked when surrounded by gongoozlers and it sounds as if something like this happened to the unfortunate with the Woolwich. We were only in at the end of regular freight carriage, and although we always used the canals hard we were well aware of the distinction between hard use and abuse.

 

We have on occasion slammed a gate closed to send a flush up a pound to get a loaded boat off the bottom as being more effective than trying to actually fill the pound up to its correct level, but that would be an exception and done to save water, and not something we would do in the normal course of events such as you describe. We've also used the boats to push the top gates open often enough, but ramming them to stop the boat sounds a bit unnecessary. On the other hand we would never allow idle bystanders to assist except with very clear instruction - they can cause a lot of grief by doing things that are not required otherwise, and indeed we did have the butty elum broken when one such helpful ******** took the mast line off before I could prevent him, and allowed the butty to crash back into the cill.

Hi Tam

 

Yes it was the top post opposite the hinge on this T&M lock , standing about a foot above the gate as you say. Yes, it is probably designed to allow the gate to be pulled shut by the boat with the boatman remaining on his boat, and I can see no problem with that as it will both slow the boat down and close the gate. However I suggest it is a fairly high risk manoeuvre for a motor to use when there are plenty of "hands" about to shut the gate and an engine to stop the boat, as was demonstrated here. There were no gongoozlers about, just waiting boaters and really, how difficult is it to close a gate? Taking a large woolwich motor through a lock need be no different from taking a clonecraft through.

 

I take your point if it is a butty since most boaters, myself included, are not au fait with the techniques to get a butty through a lock efficiently, but no butty in this case.

[madcat]

don't try it with your helicopter and we will all go home happy.Every body has an off day and gets it wrong,some [insert description of choice] crowing about it on a forum isn't going to improve things.

The strapping the gate shut thing was a regular technique to speed the job along,some do it some don't.I'm the slow one you all moan about so I don't.

[alan_fincher]

Do the same rules apply to "working boats"

 

To try and draw a generalisation from one person's incompetence would be a mistake I believe.

 

Yes, I agree entirely with Chris.

 

One person with a working boat has not got it right this time, that is the only conclusion you can draw from this one incident.

 

Our "Chalice" has a huge dent in its bow put there by a Steve Hudson boat, where the owner was more intent on shouting and waving his arms, than actually making adequate effort to go into reverse before he struck us very firmly.

 

I didn't do a "do different rules apply to Steve Hudson" boats post, because it is the only time I have been struck hard by one, and I'm not jumping to the conclusion that Hudson boat owners regularly put dents in less robust boats.

 

Incidentally I am regularly having to resort to strapping my "working" boat to a halt on lock aprons on the S&W, because the water is so shallow that if I attempt to stop with the engine at some of them, the back end gets prop-walked away from the bank, and (because I am suffering the lasting effects of a smashed pelvis), I can't safely jump the gap I end up with. It is safer and more reliable to strap it, given my physical agility, (or lack of!).

 

If I were on my "modern" boat, I'd be using reverse. Not all boats need the same technigues in otherwise similar situations.

[nicknorman]

Yes, I agree entirely with Chris.

 

One person with a working boat has not got it right this time, that is the only conclusion you can draw from this one incident.

 

Our "Chalice" has a huge dent in its bow put there by a Steve Hudson boat, where the owner was more intent on shouting and waving his arms, than actually making adequate effort to go into reverse before he struck us very firmly.

 

I didn't do a "do different rules apply to Steve Hudson" boats post, because it is the only time I have been struck hard by one, and I'm not jumping to the conclusion that Hudson boat owners regularly put dents in less robust boats.

 

Incidentally I am regularly having to resort to strapping my "working" boat to a halt on lock aprons on the S&W, because the water is so shallow that if I attempt to stop with the engine at some of them, the back end gets prop-walked away from the bank, and (because I am suffering the lasting effects of a smashed pelvis), I can't safely jump the gap I end up with. It is safer and more reliable to strap it, given my physical agility, (or lack of!).

 

If I were on my "modern" boat, I'd be using reverse. Not all boats need the same technigues in otherwise similar situations.

 

Hi Alan

 

Yes of course i agree that one can't judge a group by one individual, and I don't think I suggested that. I did ask a question not make a statement, but on this forum that seems to be taken to be rhetorical. In fact the purpose of my post was partly to pass on the humorous event, and partly to check the feeling of the forum on the subject of lock use by working boats. In the past I have asked a question, been slightly surprised by the answer, but changed my view as a consequence (that was the boat passing Fradley at 4 am). The answers from the people that have taken the trouble to give

an unemotional answer is that what I would consider misuse of locks, is not really acceptable even for a working boat, so now I know.

 

On the subject of coming alongside on the S&W, could I suggest that prop walk only works one way, and the effect I think you are noticing is more to do with pushing water along the boat so that the back of the boat is pushed away from the side, either to L or R according to which side the lock landing is. We really notice this effect on our 2'8" draft Hudson, whereas it was not noticeable on our previous boat.

 

I find the way to deal with this is to nearly stop the boat before bringing the back in, then put back into fwd with rudder over to move the back in without giving much fwd speed.

 

As with many things, on the canals there are many ways to do things all with their merits and demerits, but controlling the 20 tonne boat by means of ropes strikes me as relatively high risk since it is so easy to get fingers trapped, rope break and whip face etc, whereas engine reverse is pretty benign.

[alan_fincher]

As with many things, on the canals there are many ways to do things all with their merits and demerits, but controlling the 20 tonne boat by means of ropes strikes me as relatively high risk since it is so easy to get fingers trapped, rope break and whip face etc, whereas engine reverse is pretty benign.

Yes,

 

But if you don't practice strapping, then you don't have the skills for when it becomes the only option.

 

A 20 tonne boat heading straight at the gates when it has picked up a blade full, and the engine has stalled can be a fairly frightening prospect.

 

But it is perfectly possible to bring it to a halt without the engine, if a suitable rope and strapping point can be found.

 

The issue I'm having on the S&W are those rather nasty miniature bollards, that just have a small lip on the top, and where it is actually hard to keep the line running around the body of the bollard. However in just a couple of days, I can now achieve what I want to, with no surprises.

 

A shame if such skills die out, I think, although I appreciate there are many who will never wish to learn them.

[nicknorman]

Yes,

 

But if you don't practice strapping, then you don't have the skills for when it becomes the only option.

 

A 20 tonne boat heading straight at the gates when it has picked up a blade full, and the engine has stalled can be a fairly frightening prospect.

 

But it is perfectly possible to bring it to a halt without the engine, if a suitable rope and strapping point can be found.

 

The issue I'm having on the S&W are those rather nasty miniature bollards, that just have a small lip on the top, and where it is actually hard to keep the line running around the body of the bollard. However in just a couple of days, I can now achieve what I want to, with no surprises.

 

A shame if such skills die out, I think, although I appreciate there are many who will never wish to learn them.

Well its an interesting point about lost skills, I think there is a difference between old craft skills that are not replaced by technology - thatching springs to mind for no particular reason, hot riveting for a boaty one and lots of others including just general craftsmanship, versus those that are fully replaced by technology - harping on about aviation I spent a lot of effort learning to control my training helicopter's rotor rpm to within a % or so using a twist grip throttle - it was about 95% of my attention when learning to hover, and now I fly a helicopter that does not even have a throttle so that skill is totally redundant.

Likewise I don't see the need for strapping skills except for the tiny minority who have a butty. Although you mention a totally blocked prop, that is a very remote event, and the consequences of it are not that catastrophic. By contrast honing that skill exposes you to fairly high risk of serious injury so in a cold-light-of-day analysis it is not justified. Aviation again - when I first ever learnt to fly fixed wing in the Air Squadron we wore parachutes - when I asked if we were going to be trained in their use, the answer was no, because we would kill far more in the training than would be lost in the unlikely event of an emergency bale out.

 

I think that is why as you say there are many who never wish to learn the skill of strapping.

[Chris Pink]

As with many things, on the canals there are many ways to do things all with their merits and demerits, but controlling the 20 tonne boat by means of ropes strikes me as relatively high risk since it is so easy to get fingers trapped, rope break and whip face etc, whereas engine reverse is pretty benign.

 

there's another way of bringing a horse drawn boat or butty to a halt? (for instance)

 

And your comment about not needing to know how to strap a boat because it's a rare event to not be able to use the engine simply shows ignorance combined with not a little arrogance and is setting you up to be the object of derision in a similar situation.

 

To know how to bring a boat to a halt with ropes is an essential skill and no more dangerous than any other boating technique.

 

But it's ok Nick you use the gates to stop you, after all it's well known Hudson owners have no respect for lock infrastructure.

 

Has this always been so or is it a recent development?

Edited April 9, 2012 by Chris Pink

[magpie patrick]

Although you mention a totally blocked prop, that is a very remote event, and the consequences of it are not that catastrophic.

 

Clearly you have never seen the consequences of a "burst" mitre gate, nearly always caused by a boat hitting it. It happens every now and then. I suppose it isn't catastrophic as no one has yet died, but it is very messy. It happened on the Wey last year I think?

 

BW now use European Oak rather than greenheart, because it has more give when clobbered by a boat. Greenheart gates either crack or transfer the entire load to the lock wall, and this happens sufficiently often for BW to have a maintenance problem as a result, which is a shame, because gates made of greenheart are more resistant to rot.

[nicknorman]

Clearly you have never seen the consequences of a "burst" mitre gate, nearly always caused by a boat hitting it. It happens every now and then. I suppose it isn't catastrophic as no one has yet died, but it is very messy. It happened on the Wey last year I think?

 

BW now use European Oak rather than greenheart, because it has more give when clobbered by a boat. Greenheart gates either crack or transfer the entire load to the lock wall, and this happens sufficiently often for BW to have a maintenance problem as a result, which is a shame, because gates made of greenheart are more resistant to rot.

Did the gates burst because of a loss of drive, or because of boater incompetence? If the latter, surely learning strapping skills is unlikely to fix it. If it became common practice to stop boats in locks by strapping, I can't help thinking there would be a huge number of accidents of lost fingers etc. at the moment such accidents will happen infrequently and not be reported nor as visible as a burst gate, so the rate is not known.

[Chris Pink]

Sounds like a good argument for learning to do it properly.

[alan_fincher]

Although you mention a totally blocked prop, that is a very remote event, and the consequences of it are not that catastrophic. By contrast honing that skill exposes you to fairly high risk of serious injury so in a cold-light-of-day analysis it is not justified.

This is frankly just nonsense!

 

There seems little point in continuing this debate, in the circumstances.

 

I must admit I'm genuinely interested which "Big Woolwich" it was though, as most of the mobile unconverted ones actually out and about are likely to have been at either the Droitwich or Ellesmere Port events. I'm struggling to think which one you must have encountered, and am genuinely interested if it was inexperience, or they were just having a momentary lapse. (No, I don't want a public name and shame though!).

[Timleech]

Hi Tam

 

Yes it was the top post opposite the hinge on this T&M lock , standing about a foot above the gate as you say. Yes, it is probably designed to allow the gate to be pulled shut by the boat with the boatman remaining on his boat, and I can see no problem with that as it will both slow the boat down and close the gate. However I suggest it is a fairly high risk manoeuvre for a motor to use when there are plenty of "hands" about to shut the gate and an engine to stop the boat, as was demonstrated here. There were no gongoozlers about, just waiting boaters and really, how difficult is it to close a gate? Taking a large woolwich motor through a lock need be no different from taking a clonecraft through.

 

I take your point if it is a butty since most boaters, myself included, are not au fait with the techniques to get a butty through a lock efficiently, but no butty in this case.

 

Strapping posts on narrow lock top gates used to be the norm,it's a shame that they're rarely fitted when gates are replaced.

Yes one standard technique was to strap from the bank and gate footboard, rather than the boat. It's easier to do that way, if there's a proper post on the lock.

 

Charlie Atkins used to advise that it was wrong to rely on your reverse gear to stop when coming into a lock, in other words always keep your eyes open for options in case something went wrong and don't go flying into locks at excessive speeds. Of course machinery is more reliable these days, but there's always the possibility of a bladeful or broken Morse cable etc at the wrong moment.

 

Tim

[Pluto]

Strapping posts on narrow lock top gates used to be the norm,it's a shame that they're rarely fitted when gates are replaced.

Yes one standard technique was to strap from the bank and gate footboard, rather than the boat. It's easier to do that way, if there's a proper post on the lock.

 

Charlie Atkins used to advise that it was wrong to rely on your reverse gear to stop when coming into a lock, in other words always keep your eyes open for options in case something went wrong and don't go flying into locks at excessive speeds. Of course machinery is more reliable these days, but there's always the possibility of a bladeful or broken Morse cable etc at the wrong moment.

 

Tim

Using excessive reverse when entering a lock will also cause silt and rubbish to lodge on the sill and cause problems with the gate seal. The declining standard of seal on lock gates today is, to some extent, caused by the use of reverse, so strapping a motor boat into a lock is beneficial for this reason as well. When it comes to boating, you can rely upon Charlie getting it right!

[nicknorman]

Using excessive reverse when entering a lock will also cause silt and rubbish to lodge on the sill and cause problems with the gate seal. The declining standard of seal on lock gates today is, to some extent, caused by the use of reverse, so strapping a motor boat into a lock is beneficial for this reason as well. When it comes to boating, you can rely upon Charlie getting it right!

So would you really advocate all Sunday boaters and 1st time hirers being told to do it this way? For the time being those using reverse are the massive majority, so a few using strapping instead are surely going to have no impact on gate seal rubbish levels.

 

This is frankly just nonsense!

 

There seems little point in continuing this debate, in the circumstances.

 

I must admit I'm genuinely interested which "Big Woolwich" it was though, as most of the mobile unconverted ones actually out and about are likely to have been at either the Droitwich or Ellesmere Port events. I'm struggling to think which one you must have encountered, and am genuinely interested if it was inexperience, or they were just having a momentary lapse. (No, I don't want a public name and shame though!).

Is that nonsense as in I can't think of a valid counter argument, or nonsense because the words don't make sense. The election is well and truly over I see! Anyway, PM sent with boat name.

[dave moore]

Hi all

I've followed this with interest....I won't comment on the incident, I wasn't there. Certainly it's unfortunate that things went wrong. I was fortunate enough to see workind boaters employ strapping and thumblining techniques and I still employ hem from time to time when out and about.Yes, I'm a staunch traditionalist, but as well the appeal is to boat efficiently, saving both time and effort. Martin Fuller put it perfectly...." It was about taking the work out of boating, where possible"

 

The problem with strapping today is that the vertical part of the top gate handrail is set so close t the strappong post that it's less easy to get thhe line round reaadily. Elfin safety, I suppose.

 

Some modern boaters sometimes have a knack of making life difficult for themselves. A few years ago, I was descending Aston Lock below Stone. As I opened the bottom gates, an uphill boat appeared. I left the bottom gates open for him and left the lock. He was steering, she was in the well deck by the bows. All he had to do was to head straight into the lock, pausing at the tail to let his wife step off and close the gates. Oh no....some 80 yards before the lock he pulled in to disembark her then struggled to get back in the channel to make the approach, leaving her with a needless hike to the lock. Make up your own minds, but I'm hard put to find merit in such practices.

 

Cheers

 

Dave

[Hairy-Neil]

Strapping posts on narrow lock top gates used to be the norm,it's a shame that they're rarely fitted when gates are replaced.

 

 

More to the point, many that still have the strapping posts fitted have had the handrail placed right up against them, rendering them useless. Not sure whether this is deliberate policy or unknowing staff... (I'm minded to the latter.... )

[ditchcrawler]

Well its an interesting point about lost skills, I think there is a difference between old craft skills that are not replaced by technology - thatching springs to mind for no particular reason, hot riveting for a boaty one and lots of others including just general craftsmanship, versus those that are fully replaced by technology - harping on about aviation I spent a lot of effort learning to control my training helicopter's rotor rpm to within a % or so using a twist grip throttle - it was about 95% of my attention when learning to hover, and now I fly a helicopter that does not even have a throttle so that skill is totally redundant.

 

 

I think that is why as you say there are many who never wish to learn the skill of strapping.

Do you ever practice auto gyration landings with no engine power or landing on water?