Sailaways & the RCD

[Alan de Enfield]

5 minutes ago, blackrose said:

How is the stability or structure of the boat relevant to the discussion?  

As an example, in response, to the comment "if it has a BSSC then all is well".

I would suggest that having a BSSC does not even mean that the boat is in compliance with the BSS requirements, lets alone the RCD requirements.

[Bee]

5 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

As an example, in response, to the comment "if it has a BSSC then all is well".

I would suggest that having a BSSC does not even mean that the boat is in compliance with the BSS requirements, lets alone the RCD requirements.

Yeah, its a bit like buying a car, if it has an MOT it does not mean that it is perfectly sound in wind and limb, it just means that you can tax the thing and you won't get pulled for not having one.

[TheBiscuits]

50 minutes ago, Bee said:

Yeah, its a bit like buying a car, if it has an MOT it does not mean that it is perfectly sound in wind and limb, it just means that you can tax the thing and you won't get pulled for not having one.

A car analogy that actually works!  I think that is the first one I have seen on the forums.

[Alan de Enfield]

12 minutes ago, TheBiscuits said:

A car analogy that actually works!  I think that is the first one I have seen on the forums.

I wonder if the guy who borrows his mates fire extinguishers so he can get his BSSC, is the same guy who borrows his mates wheels/tyres to get his MOT.

[Bod]

5 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I wonder if the guy who borrows his mates fire extinguishers so he can get his BSSC, is the same guy who borrows his mates wheels/tyres to get his MOT.

Been done!!

 

Bod

[Alan de Enfield]

1 minute ago, Bod said:

Been done!!

 

Bod

I know of several instances.

[system 4-50]

Don't borrow, just use your floating fender wheels. Mine are all 3mm+.

[Bev]

23 hours ago, Neil Smith said:

Is it 4 and a half years since it was finished or from buying it?

Neil

Since it was finished really. I took ownership and it took around two months to completely finish.

if I had sold the boat two was ago who would have known about it to fine me ? 

[Bev]

Hi everyone, I’m very confused as to why I can’t sell my boat as I’ve no RCD, but as soon as it turns 5yrs old it’s perfectly okay to sell. If I’d sold my boat a couple of was ago who would have known ? How would they have known ? Please can someone answer this question for me please.

many thanks from a very confused and despartate woman 

[Alan de Enfield]

1 minute ago, Bev said:

Please can someone answer this question for me please.

Q) How does anyone know you have been doing 40mph in a 30 mph zone ?

A) You have been seen / photographed

 

Q) If you advertise your boat it is now 'placed on the market'

A) A potential buyer asks you for the RCD information / documentation, you say it does not have RCD certification.

 

Likleyhood of anything happening (apart from the buyer offering you 30% below market price) - very unlikely

[Bee]

To be honest, practically nobody will know and nobody will care very much. If you put it up for sale with a broker I guess they will value it (I've never used a broker so I don't really know) and then it will be advertised at that price, somebody will want to buy it and make an offer, they get a survey and if it is self fitted and has no RCD they might perhaps try to get a bit more knocked off the price. Personally I probably wouldn't even think about the RCD, if the boat was what I wanted and the price was OK that would be that. I guess most folks are the same, after all you wouldn't demand to see the relevant directives for a washing machine or television, its the self fitting out bit that confuses things and, of course there is a provision in the rules to allow for self builders. Just that the rules say you can't sell for 5 years. Rules. Pah.

[Alan de Enfield]

18 minutes ago, Bee said:

To be honest, practically nobody will know and nobody will care very much. If you put it up for sale with a broker I guess they will value it (I've never used a broker so I don't really know) and then it will be advertised at that price, somebody will want to buy it and make an offer, they get a survey and if it is self fitted and has no RCD they might perhaps try to get a bit more knocked off the price. Personally I probably wouldn't even think about the RCD, if the boat was what I wanted and the price was OK that would be that. I guess most folks are the same, after all you wouldn't demand to see the relevant directives for a washing machine or television, its the self fitting out bit that confuses things and, of course there is a provision in the rules to allow for self builders. Just that the rules say you can't sell for 5 years. Rules. Pah.

There are brokers who will refuse to handle the boat if it should have an RCD and doesn't.

[Alan de Enfield]

The only time the RCD matters is when Mr & Mrs Billy Boater realise that the bargain boat they bought is a lemon, at that point they often take a big interest in the RCD retrospectively when they realise it is just about the only law in regard to boats that might get them compensation in the courts.

 

It's worth remembering it is a consumer protection directive intended to protect all the Mr & Mrs Billy Boaters from Mr Nice Honest John the boatbuilder!

[MtB]

Nobody gives a stuff about the RCD except Alan.

Just bung it up for sale and explain about no RCD to anyone desperate to buy it. Their eyes will glaze over as they try to hand you the cash. It will be fine. 

[Neil Smith]

Just play dumb and say what's an rcd if anybody asks, if they are really bothered they won't buy it so you then find a buyer who is not bothered as I wouldn't be, who built the shell?

Neil

[Murflynn]

11 hours ago, Bev said:

Hi everyone, I’m very confused as to why I can’t sell my boat as I’ve no RCD, but as soon as it turns 5yrs old it’s perfectly okay to sell. If I’d sold my boat a couple of was ago who would have known ? How would they have known ? Please can someone answer this question for me please.

many thanks from a very confused and despartate woman 

because it's the law.  in the case that you do it's no longer caveat emptor, it's caveat vendor.  your risk.  it has been clearly stated several times that if you do the buyer may have you over a barrel if he/she decides the boat is not all it's cracked up to be.

 

it doesn't matter how many times you ask the same question, or how desperate you are  - the answer is still the same

[Alan de Enfield]

After being found guilty in April of two offences under the Small Craft Regulations - the UK implementation for the Recreational Craft Directive (RCD) - Billy Hughes, owner of Shotton, Flintshire, based Deeside Narrowboats, was fined £ 600 with £ 1,500 costs.

He also has a criminal conviction.

Hughes feels he has been treated harshly, having been convicted for non-compliance with essential safety items.

These include no means of reboarding, through hull fittings with no shut-off valves, use of glass not of safety glass specification and installation of electrical and gas system and appliances that did not minimise the risk of fire or risk of explosion respectively.

"I was guilty of two mistakes, " says Hughes.

"Safety glass wasn't used - which I normally do use - and the other was I didn't screw down the stove. I missed out two screws."

Apart from these two admissions, Hughes feels Flintshire Trading Standards were unduly harsh on him.

One of the charges was for not providing any means of reboarding. This, says Hughes is just not true. He buys shells that have steps welded to the stern for re-boarding.

But his documentation said he would supply a rope ladder. And he didn't.

[Alan de Enfield]

It is interesting to note that for a 'sailaway' to be classed as home built, it must be completed by the owner :

From the RCD :

Boats built or largely completed by the owner can be excluded from the scope of the RCD provided the craft is not sold within the EEA for a period of five years. However a boat is not Home built if the owner 'project manages' other trades.

In which case there is no 5 year exclusion and the boat must be certified under the RCD scheme.

 

 

Note
A member of the general public building his own boat (in his garage or garden, for example, from materials bought on the open market is deemed to be "building a boat for his own use". This boat lies outside of the Directive and does not require compliance with the essential requirements and thus CE Marking. If for whatever reason this situation changes then the provisions detailed above would be seen to apply.

It should be made clear that a private person who enters into a contractual arrangement with a professional company, yard or individual constructor to build a one off boat (be-spoke) is deemed to have entered into an arrangement where there will be a transfer of ownership. Such a boat is deemed to fall under the Directive and will have to comply with the Essential Requirements of the Directive and applicable conformity assessment procedures. Reference is made to text expanding Article 4.

Boats built for own use have the concept that a person is building their own boat and not having it built by others."

Edited March 10, 2018 by Alan de Enfield

[Bev]

1 hour ago, Neil Smith said:

Just play dumb and say what's an rcd if anybody asks, if they are really bothered they won't buy it so you then find a buyer who is not bothered as I wouldn't be, who built the shell?

Neil

The shell was built by ABC boats. The boat builder who did all the electrics and everything except for fitting the bedroom, bathroom and kitchen cupboards. Everything else was done by a qualified person

[Alan de Enfield]

2 minutes ago, Bev said:

The shell was built by ABC boats. The boat builder who did all the electrics and everything except for fitting the bedroom, bathroom and kitchen cupboards. Everything else was done by a qualified person

In which case you should have the Annex IIIA paperwork from ABC which is the 'RCD up to their level of completion'.

Do you have it ?

[MtB]

1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

After being found guilty in April of two offences under the Small Craft Regulations - the UK implementation for the Recreational Craft Directive (RCD) - Billy Hughes, owner of Shotton, Flintshire, based Deeside Narrowboats, was fined £ 600 with £ 1,500 costs.

He also has a criminal conviction.

Hughes feels he has been treated harshly, having been convicted for non-compliance with essential safety items.

These include no means of reboarding, through hull fittings with no shut-off valves, use of glass not of safety glass specification and installation of electrical and gas system and appliances that did not minimise the risk of fire or risk of explosion respectively.

"I was guilty of two mistakes, " says Hughes.

"Safety glass wasn't used - which I normally do use - and the other was I didn't screw down the stove. I missed out two screws."

Apart from these two admissions, Hughes feels Flintshire Trading Standards were unduly harsh on him.

One of the charges was for not providing any means of reboarding. This, says Hughes is just not true. He buys shells that have steps welded to the stern for re-boarding.

But his documentation said he would supply a rope ladder. And he didn't.

 

 

Yes but this was a professional boat builder being done for non-compliance. Are there any cases of an end user of a sailaway being done for selling it too soon? 

[mrsmelly]

6 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

 

Yes but this was a professional boat builder being done for non-compliance. Are there any cases of an end user of a sailaway being done for selling it too soon? 

You dont here about them Mike cos they get life imprisonment and are never seen or heard of again 

[Alan de Enfield]

20 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

 

Yes but this was a professional boat builder being done for non-compliance. Are there any cases of an end user of a sailaway being done for selling it too soon? 

A bit like the SmartGauge saga - you only hear about the ones you hear about.

[Bee]

Presumably Billy Hughes was trading as a boatbuilder and claiming that the boat was built to the RCD, that is naughty. For most of us 'amateurs' the bit about a self build boat lies outside the directive and does not require compliance is the important bit, the grey area is getting someone to do bits (maybe gas or electrics) which are then rendered unsafe by someone else fitting maybe a stove too close to the wiring or something, not a very good example, perhaps an engine installation where someone else fits the paint shelf right by the exhaust. Its tricky on narrowboats, a production line boat is easier and if I had a boat where the keel fell off I would be cross (and lucky to prove that the bolts were at fault unless I could prove that I'd never grounded the thing). There are thousands of laws about all sorts of stuff and often their existence does not provide the protection you think.

[MtB]

14 minutes ago, mrsmelly said:

You dont here about them Mike cos they get life imprisonment and are never seen or heard of again 

 

No they don't! 

I once made a complaint to Trading Standards about a boat sold to me that should have had an RCD (back in the day when it first came out and we all thought it would be important).

TS told me they would not be prosecuting the builder or taking any action whatsoever over it as they "had bigger fish to fry".

Since then I've not bothered with it.