Carbon Monoxide

[Sarah and Ian]

Hello all

 

This is what happened to us at the weekend. Our Carbon Monoxide alarm went of at 5.00 am on Friday morning. Grumpy guts me gets up walks into the Galley where the alarm is throws open the windows and takes the battery out. Worked from home on Friday and the alarm went of again. Weather was very "heavy" so wondered if we were getting fumes coming back down again and not clearing swept chimney and relit fire. Friday night went of again same drill. Borrowed a friends alarm and it went of Sunday at 5.10am. Worried now shut stove down opened all the windows and fired up the Webasto.

 

Now I had better explain we have a Morso Squirrel with internal back boiler that we haven't got around to connecting to any radiators so to all intense and purposes its empty pipework which has not been soldered of made water tight. Due to the stove being so good at providing heat we have decided not connect any way. Here lies my theory. I think the back boiler has cracked and has been leaking Carbon Monoxide into the boat daytime having doors open and in and out etc its not been noticed my the alarm. But night time with the fire shut down its been leaking out. All the seals are sound as the stoves was only installed in April no obvious signs of damage.

 

Chap who installed the stove. Is going to come out and remove the pipework from the rear and cap the tails of. After reading another thread here raises my point with the boiler having been compromised this should cause no further problems with the stove does this sound about right??? In the future if needed we can replace the boiler.

 

 

Thanks in advance.

 

A worried Ian of Ian and Sarah

[pearley]

Battery gasing can also set them off.

[Proper Job]

Well....... you did two right things

one to fit a CO alarm and two to react to it and shut the fire down pending further investigation.

 

I always though that it was wrong to continually run a fire with a back boiler without water.

 

In a non back boiler fire, there are fire bricks to protect the iron work and damage to the fire through overheating. With a back boiler the boiler area is left exposed, but it does rely on water being in the system to keep the exposed area cool.

 

I stand to be corrected.

[Sarah and Ian]

Bit more info.

 

Up until Saturday we didn't have a starter battery all the others are sealed batteries. Saloon is at the bow of the boat stove was off last night and we had a beep free night.

Edited January 30, 2012 by Sarah and Ian

[alan_fincher]

I always though that it was wrong to continually run a fire with a back boiler without water.

 

In a non back boiler fire, there are fire bricks to protect the iron work and damage to the fire through overheating. With a back boiler the boiler area is left exposed, but it does rely on water being in the system to keep the exposed area cool.

 

I stand to be corrected.

You are probably correct.

 

But I'll freely admit Chalice came with a stove with a back boiler not connected to anything, and we have always run it that way.

 

That said it is an all welded stove, so in my view is probably a lot more robust than the cast iron types that seem very prone to cracking.

 

The only thought going through my head though is that in most stoves the top plate will not have fire-bricks, and that doesn't seem to me to be likely to get any less hot than a back that doesn't have them, but does have an empty back boiler between it and the firebed.

[Guest]

Ian - are you satisfied the joint between the stove and the flue is ok?

[ditchcrawler]

Hello all

 

This is what happened to us at the weekend. Our Carbon Monoxide alarm went of at 5.00 am on Friday morning. Grumpy guts me gets up walks into the Galley where the alarm is throws open the windows and takes the battery out. Worked from home on Friday and the alarm went of again. Weather was very "heavy" so wondered if we were getting fumes coming back down again and not clearing swept chimney and relit fire. Friday night went of again same drill. Borrowed a friends alarm and it went of Sunday at 5.10am. Worried now shut stove down opened all the windows and fired up the Webasto.

 

Now I had better explain we have a Morso Squirrel with internal back boiler that we haven't got around to connecting to any radiators so to all intense and purposes its empty pipework which has not been soldered of made water tight. Due to the stove being so good at providing heat we have decided not connect any way. Here lies my theory. I think the back boiler has cracked and has been leaking Carbon Monoxide into the boat daytime having doors open and in and out etc its not been noticed my the alarm. But night time with the fire shut down its been leaking out. All the seals are sound as the stoves was only installed in April no obvious signs of damage.

 

Chap who installed the stove. Is going to come out and remove the pipework from the rear and cap the tails of. After reading another thread here raises my point with the boiler having been compromised this should cause no further problems with the stove does this sound about right??? In the future if needed we can replace the boiler.

 

 

Thanks in advance.

 

A worried Ian of Ian and Sarah

I am not sure that capping the boiler outlets is a good idea, As it heats up the pressure inside it would rise, unless as you expect its cracked.

Edit to add

Thinking further if I remember correctly the boiler sits inside the back of the Squirrel and the plumbing connections come out through two knock outs. If the boiler has overheated due to not having water in it, it may be possible for fumes to come out around the plumbing outlets.

Edited January 30, 2012 by ditchcrawler

[Chertsey]

You are probably correct.

 

But I'll freely admit Chalice came with a stove with a back boiler not connected to anything, and we have always run it that way.

 

That said it is an all welded stove, so in my view is probably a lot more robust than the cast iron types that seem very prone to cracking.

 

The only thought going through my head though is that in most stoves the top plate will not have fire-bricks, and that doesn't seem to me to be likely to get any less hot than a back that doesn't have them, but does have an empty back boiler between it and the firebed.

I recall being told that if you are going to use a back boiler without water in, then you should fill it with sand. I confess we never did this with Warrior, and pretty much accepted that it would knacker the back boiler. never thought about it knackering the stove although PJ's theory makes sense. Although it did have fire bricks. (Not a Squirrel)

[Sarah and Ian]

I recall being told that if you are going to use a back boiler without water in, then you should fill it with sand. I confess we never did this with Warrior, and pretty much accepted that it would knacker the back boiler. never thought about it knackering the stove although PJ's theory makes sense. Although it did have fire bricks. (Not a Squirrel)

 

The old boiler is still in situ so this should provide protection against the stove. Stove now running against so hopefully tonite it won't go off if it does I'll report back.

[Timleech]

In some weather conditions you can get localised temperature inversions, which then bring a possibility of the fire burning backwards. Only likely to happen with a very slow-burning fire, which would fit with your 5am problem.

 

Tim

[Slim]

Are you sure that there's not a leak between any of the individual panels making up the stove? I've got a Squirrel and over the years I've had a number of lugs and bolts fracture resulting in joints opening up. The last time I noticed this was when immediately after lighting it I dropped something on the floor. As I stooped to pick it up I saw yellow flames (from the kindling) through a gap between the top and a side. Quite a shock. A full strip down and renewal of all seals followed. I also had to make up a couple of cleats to enable me to bolt the whole thing together. Whilst the carbon monoxide didn't go off the stove now has 2 of them in close proximity and I check them regularly. To test the integrity of the seals I close the stove vents , nip outside, block the chimney and nip back in to check for smoke etc. It may not be the correct thing to do but it makes me feel better. Before anyone asks, yes I do intend to replace it in the very near future and no it won't be with another Squirrel.

 

 

 

Frank

[ditchcrawler]

Are you sure that there's not a leak between any of the individual panels making up the stove? I've got a Squirrel and over the years I've had a number of lugs and bolts fracture resulting in joints opening up. The last time I noticed this was when immediately after lighting it I dropped something on the floor. As I stooped to pick it up I saw yellow flames (from the kindling) through a gap between the top and a side. Quite a shock. A full strip down and renewal of all seals followed. I also had to make up a couple of cleats to enable me to bolt the whole thing together. Whilst the carbon monoxide didn't go off the stove now has 2 of them in close proximity and I check them regularly. To test the integrity of the seals I close the stove vents , nip outside, block the chimney and nip back in to check for smoke etc. It may not be the correct thing to do but it makes me feel better. Before anyone asks, yes I do intend to replace it in the very near future and no it won't be with another Squirrel.

 

 

 

Frank

Our squirrel fell apart as well. The first thing to go was the blank for the rear chimney fixing and then a few years later the sides just sort of fell apart.

[the grinch]

DO NOT block the pipes or cap them the back boiler WILL explode, fill with sand or leave open ended if you are not using the boiler part it may be a good idea to insert a fire brick in the back of the fire.

[nbfiresprite]

I had no trouble with my squirrel (Now in it's 17th year of service), Yet others are fulling apart.

Question is why?

 

Firesprite

 

In the office

[blackrose]

I've had 3 different cast iron stoves, and lived with each for 1 year, 2 years and 6 years respectively. None of them ever cracked.

[Sarah and Ian]

DO NOT block the pipes or cap them the back boiler WILL explode, fill with sand or leave open ended if you are not using the boiler part it may be a good idea to insert a fire brick in the back of the fire.

If the back boilers cracked sureley capping it off will do no damage as there is no way pressure can build up. Last night was a quiet night after it being relit. The stoves only 9 months old so I would be staggered if it started to fall apart after that short space of time.

[Timleech]

If the back boilers cracked sureley capping it off will do no damage as there is no way pressure can build up. Last night was a quiet night after it being relit. The stoves only 9 months old so I would be staggered if it started to fall apart after that short space of time.

 

Do you have any reason to suspect that the boiler is cracked, apart from it being a theory which could explain the CO leak?

 

Tim

[Sarah and Ian]

Do you have any reason to suspect that the boiler is cracked, apart from it being a theory which could explain the CO leak?

 

Tim

 

I have no other reason to suspect that it's cracked came to the conclusion after reading other threads about running a back boiler empty. Coupled that the alarm did not go of last night after the boiler was capped off. Chimneys clean and there are no gaps or cracks on the stove. All fire rope seals are good.

Edited January 31, 2012 by Sarah and Ian

[bottle]

Remove back boiler replace with firebrick and ensure the holes where the pipes went out the back are closed off. (gas tight)

[Chris Pink]

I have no other reason to suspect that it's cracked came to the conclusion after reading other threads about running a back boiler empty. Coupled that the alarm did not go of last night after the boiler was capped off. Chimneys clean and there are no gaps or cracks on the stove. All fire rope seals are good.

 

 

The squirrel back boiler won't be cracked from running it empty, it's welded steel with no lining.

 

The sand advice is for back boilers with vitreous linings.

[Guest]

I had a similar problem to you some while ago and cured it by ensuring the top vent was closed when damping down overnight. This has been a 100% cure over the last 6 months of use.

My theory was that as the fire cooled the updraught from the flue diminshed and fumes found it as easy to escape through the top vent as the chimney.

 

As an aside, I think that all the advice that suggests your boiler is unlikely to have cracked should be headed. Older squirels had a cast iron glass lined back boiler (my orig was circa 1995) which would crack.

Newer (Current stove is year old) have the welded steel as noted by others.

[Rackingman]

Hi - I've read this thread with great interest and have had 2 Squirrel stoves, neither with back boilers. The first one in 1994 cracked at the back and then the top and was finally replaced in 2002. I blamed the heat expansion of the sides and back for the cracks and decided to put in a couple of extra fire bricks, - (cheap from Wilkinson's and exactly the right size for the sides) - the "new" stove shows no sign of cracking after 9 winters. However, the new Squirrel had an internal cowl fitted inside the stove to cover the flue. Apparently the idea was to get more heat from the combustion gases by leaving it longer in the top of the stove. It proved to be a nightmare, it worked fine for a couple of months and then some clinker came off the flue pipe and blocked it off at the stove. I spent a few hours trying to clean it out and eventually it worked OK again - then summer came and it was forgotten. Next time we lit up the smoke was everywhere and the CO2 alarm was going beserk. I couldn't split the stove from the flue because of the stupid design of the flanges so I ended up cutting the cowl off in situ with a disk cutter and an awful lot of mess. It has worked perfectly ever since. Just a thought - has your flue got an internal cowl? they should be removed prior to installation if the stove is to be used with a short flue - but it didn't say that in the book!!!!

[Bob Blues]

When I first started living aboard my alarm went off every night. First I rushed into the cold night air every time it went off normally about 3 AM then as the days grew on I just pulled the battery out once it went off. I tried everything to work out what it was even had a sniffer to check the fire seals. It turned out to be my own stupid fault. I put the ash bucket in the cratch after emptying the ash pan. so the fumes were coming through the door vents. I put the bucket outside and it hasn’t gone off since.

 

 

Bob B

[ditchcrawler]

When I first started living aboard my alarm went off every night. First I rushed into the cold night air every time it went off normally about 3 AM then as the days grew on I just pulled the battery out once it went off. I tried everything to work out what it was even had a sniffer to check the fire seals. It turned out to be my own stupid fault. I put the ash bucket in the cratch after emptying the ash pan. so the fumes were coming through the door vents. I put the bucket outside and it hasn’t gone off since.

 

 

Bob B

And you are not the first

[Bob Blues]

And you are not the first

 

and probally not the last.