What's the catch!

[RLWP]

Right! - I am sure that most people looking at second-hand boats don't know that! Puts Springers with a less than perfect hull into a 'do not buy category' I would think?

 

John

 

Not sure. If it needs local plating, it's no worse than any other boat. But the one we came across needed more - far more

 

Richard

[Chalky]

If you could find someone who knew the boat before its recent chain of owners you might be able to find out what the issue actually is i.e. whole hull or just a small area. Having seen how often its changed hands I suspect Alans right and its become a hot potato for the owners due to the cost.

[n.b.Goldie]

Could always offer them the scrap value of the boat? Then get the plating done and spend some time and effort sorting out the rest of it.

 

Potentially quite a low cost route into boat ownership, but lots of time and effort would be needed.

 

A quick google gives scrap steel at about £193 per tonne. I guess the boat might weigh about 10 tons so offer about £1500 and be prepared to pay up to say £2k. If a full bottom and side replate then cost £10k including craneage etc. you then have a boat that will last pretty much for the next 20+ years for about £12k. Would that be a good deal?

 

Regards

Ditchdabbler

[Midnight Rider]

A quick google gives scrap steel at about £193 per tonne. I guess the boat might weigh about 10 tons so offer about £1500 and be prepared to pay up to say £2k. If a full bottom and side replate then cost £10k including craneage etc. you then have a boat that will last pretty much for the next 20+ years for about £12k. Would that be a good deal?

Not if your budget is £7k

[n.b.Goldie]

Not if your budget is £7k

 

Very true but although it will not help the OP others might read the thread........

 

Regards

Ditchdabbler

[Starcoaster]

I think Alan is right, I pretty much decided that that sounded like the likely chain of events myself.

I agree they're probably looking for a mug now who thinks for that price it's not worth a survey. Horrible thought, but I bet they will get someone. They have not replied to my enquiry, funnily enough!

 

I am on Apollo Duck, ebay etc. daily looking for new listings! Under 25ft is not realistic for me to live on, and I also want a shower! I can buy a boat cheaper than 7k and use the rest of the money getting work done, but as there is very little I am capable/ willing to risk doing for myself I would have to account for any work being at shipyard prices not DIY prices.

 

So anything that needs a lot doing to it or says 'project' I read very carefully but usually move on.

Edited September 10, 2011 by Starcoaster

[Guest]

I think Alan is right, I pretty much decided that that sounded like the likely chain of events myself.

I agree they're probably looking for a mug now who thinks for that price it's not worth a survey. Horrible thought, but I bet they will get someone. They have not replied to my enquiry, funnily enough!

 

I am on Apollo Duck, ebay etc. daily looking for new listings! Under 25ft is not realistic for me to live on, and I also want a shower! I can buy a boat cheaper than 7k and use the rest of the money getting work done, but as there is very little I am capable/ willing to risk doing for myself I would have to account for any work being at shipyard prices not DIY prices.

 

So anything that needs a lot doing to it or says 'project' I read very carefully but usually move on.

 

I don't think I missed your intention to live aboard in your earlier posts (sorry if I did) but if that is your intention a GRP boat would not be my first choice (though many folk do it successfully) so I would disregard the links I posted earlier, they would not be my first choice as a boat to live on.... weekend/short term cruising then yes...

[Starcoaster]

Yeah I know a narrowboat would be much better for lots of reasons, but I have to work with my budget. :-(

[Chris Pink]

I think Alan is right, I pretty much decided that that sounded like the likely chain of events myself.

I agree they're probably looking for a mug now who thinks for that price it's not worth a survey. Horrible thought, but I bet they will get someone. They have not replied to my enquiry, funnily enough!

 

I am on Apollo Duck, ebay etc. daily looking for new listings! Under 25ft is not realistic for me to live on, and I also want a shower! I can buy a boat cheaper than 7k and use the rest of the money getting work done, but as there is very little I am capable/ willing to risk doing for myself I would have to account for any work being at shipyard prices not DIY prices.

 

So anything that needs a lot doing to it or says 'project' I read very carefully but usually move on.

 

My opinion: everyone who has responded to this ad have expensive boats at a guess ( except Carl). I would seriously consider this boat if, two things, you can get a recent hull survey or get one done (£500) and the work it needs is fairly minor, which it could easily be. Think about it. It's almost certainly made of 6mm steel it won't all be rotten. It doesn't take much skill to weld patches onto 6mm steel. 5k 10k yes if you replace the bottom but if you budget to dock it now (with the survey saving docking cost) and every 3 years and at each of those dockings address the urgent issues. I would say if you pay £5k and budget £2k you'll get a nice boat within your budget. I have worked in and with boatyards and I know how panic over these things grows. If you live on it, it's not going to sink.

 

And if anyone thinks I'm talking crap then show me the steel boats that have sunk through rust. I don't say they don't exist but they aren't common and have been worked or neglected for decades.. I know a fair few people with late 70s early 80s steel boats and yes they need attention but if that's where your budget is you can make a go of them

 

So find a survey, find a welder and have a think.

Edited September 10, 2011 by Chris Pink

[Starcoaster]

Thanks for posting, always keen to get lots of viewpoints.

 

I do appreciate what you're saying, and if I did have some leeway in my budget I might consider it.

But not only is 7k going to wipe me out financially, but the boat will also be my home, so I just don't think I can gamble either the money or the peace of mind, particularly as I feel that the sellers are trying to hide at least the hull issue and maybe more, and the boat doesn't currently have a bss (from what I can establish) which implies more work needing doing as well as the hull.

It's true that it might not be about to sink, but as indicated, with the hull as it is, it's uninsurable and back to not being able to take such a massive gamble with the little money I have, I can;t risk havign an uninsured/ uninsurable boat.

If you have any idea on the cost for welding either patches or the whole thing, I'd be interested to hear- If not with a view to having it then just out of curiosity.

 

At the link on Whitton marine, http://www.whiltonmarina.co.uk/used-narrowboats/details/1533.aspx it says the hull plating specification is 6/6/3mm, can anyone clarify what that means? Also it says it has a flat hull.

Edited September 10, 2011 by Starcoaster

[David Mack]

At the link on Whitton marine, http://www.whiltonmarina.co.uk/used-narrowboats/details/1533.aspx it says the hull plating specification is 6/6/3mm, can anyone clarify what that means? Also it says it has a flat hull.

 

6/6/3 means it has a 6mm thick bottom plate, 6mm hull sides and 3mm cabin. This is absolutely standard for a boat this age. A modern boat might be 10/6/5/4 which would be 10mm bottom, 6mm hull sides, 5mm cabin sides and 4mm cabin roof.

 

Flat hull means the boat has a flat bottom plate - which will make the overplating easier.

 

David

[alan_fincher]

6/6/3 means that, as originally built it had a 6mm (or 1/4") bottom plate, the same for the hull sides, and the cabin top was 3mm (or 1/8").

 

This was a very normal spec for a boat of the age, but over time the "standard" spec for non luxury boats has risen to (generally)( something like 10/6/4 (10 mm base plate, 6mm hull sides, and 4mm cabin top).

 

There's nowt wrong with 6/6/3, but obviously a base that starts at 6mm thick can't lose as much metal as one that starts at 10mm thick, before it starts to become an issue.

 

What you need to know with this boat is not what thickness the hull is claimed to have started life as, but how much that has been reduced at the worst places. It's a fair guess that a boat that was originally advertised as needing plating work before it is insurable will have lost a lot of it's original steel - possibly half of it, or even more in the worst places.

 

A quick google gives scrap steel at about £193 per tonne. I guess the boat might weigh about 10 tons so offer about £1500 and be prepared to pay up to say £2k.

I doubt anybody will pay £193 per tonne for scrap steel if it is in the form of a canal boat that needs craning and transport, but I could be wrong.

 

But this is only a 6/6/3 spec boat, 33 feet long. I think that you might find 5 tonnes of scrap steel out of it, certainly not 10 tonnes. most people over-estimate the weight of modern shallow draughted boats, and a lot of any weight that is present in a cheapy boat will be ballast, and that ballast will almost certainly be something valueless.

Edited September 10, 2011 by alan_fincher

[boots]

cant help but think that if it really is worth it, then would have been sold. And if not, then something else will come along.

 

Appreciate that the OP only has a small budget, and if I am reading the posts correctly, they already have reservations. If you are anything like me, piece of mind means an awful lot and I would worry you would regret this.

[jonk]

There might be a contradiction somewhere? Springers are supposed to be v-hulled? yet it is advertised as flat? If it is indeed a flat hull would this mean that the cost of a complete replate would be more affordable?

 

John

[alan_fincher]

My opinion: everyone who has responded to this ad have expensive boats at a guess ( except Carl). I would seriously consider this boat if, two things, you can get a recent hull survey or get one done (£500) and the work it needs is fairly minor, which it could easily be.

You have a point, though I guess everybody has a different definition of "expensive" depending on circumstances!

 

The problem I see is that the docking or craning charges, plus those for a reliable hull survey, may not be dramatically different for a £7K boat than a £70K boat.

 

Depending on where it is £500 may be conservative - many places charge £200 easily to pull a boat out, and you may well not get a reliable survey for another £300.

 

But lets say it can be done for that kind of money.

 

If the buyer of the £70K boat gets a duff survey, and decides to "walk", the £500 will not have hit them too badly. Anybody trying to buy a boat on just a £7K budget, who spends £500 to be told a boat is unsuitable, will then have lost a sizeable percentage of the money they did have available, and will only have £6.5K for their next attempt.

 

Don't get me wrong - I think one of the worst things that has happened in the boating world in the last 30 to 40 years is to render it unaffordable for many, and I support trying to promote the sale and restoration of cheaper boats. But it's not without it's pitfalls, is it ?

 

There might be a contradiction somewhere? Springers are supposed to be v-hulled? yet it is advertised as flat? If it is indeed a flat hull would this mean that the cost of a complete replate would be more affordable?

Without re-reading the whole thing, does anybody think this boat is a Springer ?

 

It doesn't look like a Springer to me, and although I know Springers have got a mention, if anyone said this one was I must have missed it.

 

A Springer of that age would surely have an angled stern and angled room - this has neither, and the bow doesn't look at all "Spinger-esque".

 

Whilton describe it as "unknown build" - they are not always the sharpest knives in the drawer, but even they would be able to recognise a Springer, surely?

[Starcoaster]

Thats a good point, I was just wondering why I was thinking it was a Springer and think I must have picked it up from this thread as none of the three ads I have found for it make any mention of it being a Springer.

[n.b.Goldie]

I doubt anybody will pay £193 per tonne for scrap steel if it is in the form of a canal boat that needs craning and transport, but I could be wrong.

 

But this is only a 6/6/3 spec boat, 33 feet long. I think that you might find 5 tonnes of scrap steel out of it, certainly not 10 tonnes. most people over-estimate the weight of modern shallow draughted boats, and a lot of any weight that is present in a cheapy boat will be ballast, and that ballast will almost certainly be something valueless.

 

This is probably true but would that change the prospect of having a boat that would last 20+years for about 12k? I think that for the right buyer (not the OP) a good buy could be had,

 

Regards

Ditchdabbler

[Alan Saunders]

. . . Without re-reading the whole thing, does anybody think this boat is a Springer ?

It doesn't look like a Springer to me, and although I know Springers have got a mention, if anyone said this one was I must have missed it.

A Springer of that age would surely have an angled stern and angled room - this has neither, and the bow doesn't look at all "Spinger-esque".

Whilton describe it as "unknown build" - they are not always the sharpest knives in the drawer, but even they would be able to recognise a Springer, surely?

I am no expert but I thought, even before you posted "It does not look like Springer". According to many the early Springers used superior (ex Gasometer?) steel.

 

I bought a 1987 33' 6/6/3 Brummagem in 1995, i.e. at<8 years old. My boat, like 'Chelsea', was advertised at £12,500 by a broker. My offer of £7.5K without survey was snapped up. Remember this was in 1995!

 

Surveyor's criteria was <1/8" i.e. if he could dent it with his pointy hammer. This was a 'semi-vee' (double chine?) like the Springers. The area requiring overplating was ~2' at the waterline. The boat had spent most of its life on the Bridgewater with no anodes. On subsequent dockings the hull is covered in a hard, white coating like limescale.

 

If I had the energy I would set up a 'wanted' web site. Most brokers just sell what they have, they are not able to source boats from other brokers that meet their customer's specification. 'Chelsea' ticks most boxes for me except that it does not have a 'fridge - otherwise I might make an offer.

 

There are many 'difficult-to-sell' boats that may suit you better. e.g. a self-build steel hull with narrow gunwales. Look at a lot of boats, ask questions (especially of brokers), compromise.

 

Alan

[Chris Pink]

Thanks for posting, always keen to get lots of viewpoints.

 

I do appreciate what you're saying, and if I did have some leeway in my budget I might consider it.

But not only is 7k going to wipe me out financially, but the boat will also be my home, so I just don't think I can gamble either the money or the peace of mind, particularly as I feel that the sellers are trying to hide at least the hull issue and maybe more, and the boat doesn't currently have a bss (from what I can establish) which implies more work needing doing as well as the hull.

It's true that it might not be about to sink, but as indicated, with the hull as it is, it's uninsurable and back to not being able to take such a massive gamble with the little money I have, I can;t risk havign an uninsured/ uninsurable boat.

If you have any idea on the cost for welding either patches or the whole thing, I'd be interested to hear- If not with a view to having it then just out of curiosity.

 

At the link on Whitton marine, http://www.whiltonmarina.co.uk/used-narrowboats/details/1533.aspx it says the hull plating specification is 6/6/3mm, can anyone clarify what that means? Also it says it has a flat hull.

 

My son, experienced in such things said a new bottom complete could be done for £2000 but that's the sort of price you'd have to hunt out, but agrees that you could do a system of rolling repairs, like I say we know people in the same situation. You need sight of a survey but patching is perfectly respectable, look at any 100 year old Birmingham boat. To me it would be down to the honesty of the owner and sounds like they just want rid, they are taking an apparent hit after all if they bought it for 8, have you talked to them?

 

Insurance? Don't confuse 3rd party and salvage (required) with comprehensive. None of my wooden boats were insurable in that sense.

 

You have a point, though I guess everybody has a different definition of "expensive" depending on circumstances!

 

The problem I see is that the docking or craning charges, plus those for a reliable hull survey, may not be dramatically different for a £7K boat than a £70K boat.

 

Depending on where it is £500 may be conservative - many places charge £200 easily to pull a boat out, and you may well not get a reliable survey for another £300.

 

But lets say it can be done for that kind of money.

 

If the buyer of the £70K boat gets a duff survey, and decides to "walk", the £500 will not have hit them too badly. Anybody trying to buy a boat on just a £7K budget, who spends £500 to be told a boat is unsuitable, will then have lost a sizeable percentage of the money they did have available, and will only have £6.5K for their next attempt.

 

Don't get me wrong - I think one of the worst things that has happened in the boating world in the last 30 to 40 years is to render it unaffordable for many, and I support trying to promote the sale and restoration of cheaper boats. But it's not without it's pitfalls, is it ?

 

 

 

 

Well if it didn't have pitfalls it wouldn't be cheap.

 

500 would easily buy a hull only survey which is what a welder would need. Depends what stage you say scrap this boat, in these days of waste management you can't just dump it. Without more information it's impossible to predict but having dropped 6mm steel on my foot I know it was once at least a very substantial material indeed. Most boats wear at points, or suffer pitting, it is possible to deal, even deal cheaply, with these. Like I say it depends on the honesty of the owner whether it's for sale at 5000 or 50000.

Edited September 11, 2011 by Chris Pink

[Starcoaster]

Might your son be able to do the full bottom? At 2k that would possibly make it feasible to make an offer on!

[Chris Pink]

Might your son be able to do the full bottom? At 2k that would possibly make it feasible to make an offer on!

 

You don't know it needs a bottom. More information and sight of the last survey is the next step. Talk to geezer

 

Aside: what is it about the muddy ditch that makes people so protective about surveys? Ive been looking at sea-going boats recently and nobody has been at all coy about sight of surveys. My first narrowboat had a 2 year old survey and no, there was nobody I could sue but there was enough information in there to make my decision -saving me a lot of money.

[starman]

I think Alan is right, I pretty much decided that that sounded like the likely chain of events myself.

I agree they're probably looking for a mug now who thinks for that price it's not worth a survey. Horrible thought, but I bet they will get someone. They have not replied to my enquiry, funnily enough!

 

I am on Apollo Duck, ebay etc. daily looking for new listings! Under 25ft is not realistic for me to live on, and I also want a shower! I can buy a boat cheaper than 7k and use the rest of the money getting work done, but as there is very little I am capable/ willing to risk doing for myself I would have to account for any work being at shipyard prices not DIY prices.

 

So anything that needs a lot doing to it or says 'project' I read very carefully but usually move on.

 

Starcoaster, you sound like a novice to old boats - albeit a sensible one. I don't know where you're based but my advice would be to try and get out and about and get some first-hand advice from a few experienced hands in the boat business. There's no substitute for talking to people. There are some friendly brokers who'll happily give sound guidance even if they don't have boats in your price range. And plenty of boatyards do bottoming, plating etc and can give you a steer on costs. I'm moored at Streethay near Birmingham and they have probably four boats in at the moment having plating or new cabin tops. Boatyards like these are also a good source of half decent cheap boats that never make Apolloduck or ebay.

 

You absolutely have to have some sort of hull inspection before anyone can quote you on steelwork though - though a working boatyard can do this for the cost of slipping or craning if they are going to get the repairs.

Finally, don't under-estimate the cost and disruption of trying to sort out a rubbish boat while living on it or the agonies of living on a leaky, condensation ridden boat in winter.

 

PS I'm with Carlt on this subject - I reckon you'd get best value on a wooden boat as a cheap liveaboard (though maybe not one suitable for narrow canals) but you'd need a knowledgeable person to appraise the hull.

[FrigateCaptain]

Would it be cheeky to put a offer in myself?

Have asked seller if work has been done already, waiting to hear

[carlt]

Under 25ft is not realistic for me to live on, and I also want a shower! I can buy a boat cheaper than 7k and use the rest of the money getting work done, but as there is very little I am capable/ willing to risk doing for myself I would have to account for any work being at shipyard prices not DIY prices.

 

So anything that needs a lot doing to it or says 'project' I read very carefully but usually move on.

I had a shower on my Dawncraft 27 and, personally, I would steer clear of a centre cockpit cruiser (if it's GRP) because it is two rooms, separated by a tent, to keep warm.

 

An aft-cockpit cruiser has just one room with a good space, at the back, to use in better weather.

 

With a budget of £7k "Project" or "Needs work" will feature in just about every ad you read.

[jonk]

Thats a good point, I was just wondering why I was thinking it was a Springer and think I must have picked it up from this thread as none of the three ads I have found for it make any mention of it being a Springer.

 

Posts 20 - 24 is where Springer came in It was said that to replate a Springer was much more complicated than a flat bottom narrowboat! It did not actually say that this boat IS a Springer but implied it Sounds like it ISN'T so perhaps you might have the possibility of a full/partial replate for an affordable sum? Still think it looks a reasonable boat for the money - not sure about a Lister motor though

Good luck

John