Legionnaires Disease, a warning

[system 4-50]

Including this country (I have six Cooling Towers under my Supervision ranging from four huge concrete towers to two comparatively small fan assisted modular Cell type exchangers - plus loads of Air Conditioning Units)

You're doomed!

[mross]

Including this country (I have six Cooling Towers under my Supervision ranging from four huge concrete towers to two comparatively small fan assisted modular Cell type exchangers - plus loads of Air Conditioning Units)

What do you use to control bacteria and viruses?

[pete harrison]

You're doomed!

Well I would be if I believed half the rubbish being discussed here.

 

The reality is that our Cooling Water systems, Air Conditioning Units and all other water systems are very tightly monitored and controlled, so the risk is so low it is almost non existent (everything has risk)

What do you use to control bacteria and viruses?

Chlorine of one sort or another (different types dependant on duty) - just like the Water Board does

 

edit - and swimming pool operators of course

Edited January 3, 2017 by pete harrison

[mross]

Anyhoo, here is the very latest on Legionnaire's, published only last week. (Warning, there's 52 pages of it.)

I read every page. Most is about reporting protocols.

Edited January 3, 2017 by mross

[mross]

Chlorine of one sort or another (different types dependant on duty) - just like the Water Board does

Do you chlorinate the tank or system on your boat? We just drink bottled water, wine and whisky, but use tap water for brushing our teeth which is, perhaps, not wise?

[pete harrison]

I have never had a problem with Legionella or any other water borne bacteria when using 2 or 3 gallon Water Cans ('Buckby' Cans)

Edited January 3, 2017 by pete harrison

[mross]

Ah, but do you actually drink the stuff? Neat?

[pete harrison]

Ah, but do you actually drink the stuff? Neat?

I usually add a tea-bag, milk and one sugar

[tonyt40]

It is theoretically possible to catch Legionnaires from a shower head but I have read medical literature that says this is not a real risk. Agricultural misting systems do not seem to present a risk. However, as boaters we have tanks and plumbing systems that a more vulnerable to stagnation. When I leave the boat for more than a few days, I do take the shower hose off and drain it and the head. Someone here said that they stored fresh water in plastic bottles. Re-using drinking water bottles is unwise. He may be actually increasing the risk! The shower head may harbour bacteria (not just Legionnaires) which is why I take precautions.

 

to put things in perspective, the incidence of Legionnaires in the US is about 1 in 100,000.

Anything producing a water mist or droplets increase the risk.

 

The US don't routinely screen for Legionnaires disease. Most is reported as community acquired Pneumonia.

 

Keep reading

[mross]

Keep reading

Can you provide a link?

[tonyt40]

There are loads. ECDC, CDC, WHO, Dept of Health, Health and Safety Exec, Public Health England, virtually every countries public health sites. Dig into the detail on ECDC - contracted from compost in Scotland, public fountains, showers, hot tubs.

Edited January 3, 2017 by tonyt40

[mross]

There are loads. ECDC, CDC, WHO, Dept of Health, Health and Safety Exec, Public Health England, virtually every countries public health sites. Dig into the detail on ECDC - contracted from compost in Scotland, public fountains, showers, hot tubs.

But what point are you making? I have been reading this stuff for twenty years and consider myself well informed. I am certified by the USPH CDC. I don't understand if you agree with what I have posted or if you oppose what I say. If so, please refute it with some facts.

[tonyt40]

You state that showers pose no real risk. Wasn't the 1976 outbreak that named Legionaries disease due to shower heads?

 

Whilst a shower head may not directly generate small enough droplets directly, the spray hitting any hard surface can.

 

You also state that we are at more risk from cooling towers. You have to weigh up how many of us ever get anywhere near a cooling tower (they are very few these days) against how many of us could come into contact with a contaminated shower? Cooling towers would cause an outbreak, a shower will cause maybe a single case

 

After speaking to an environmental microbiologist today that has acted as an expert witness in cases of fatality from legionnaires disease, both in this country (called by the Hse as an investigator) and abroad (Government of Cyprus) , he would concur that showers are a very real risk.

 

This takes up right back to. Post no. 1

[mross]

@tonyt40 Did you have a chance to look at the FAQs that I linked to in post #46 which is at http://legionella.org/faqs/general-public/transmission-of-disease/ (There are quite a few FAQs on different topics) Below are two examples.

 

Q "I visited a hospital and drank water from the faucet in one of the bathrooms. The hospital has found Legionella in the water. They, say they're working to control this bacteria. As of today, I feel ok. Do I have to take any measures?"

 

A "Water in most large buildings contains Legionella. Drinking water poses a risk to only select individuals. Lung disease and smoking are risk factors. Underlying immune-deficiency diseases or organ transplant recipients are also at higher risk. If you have a history of pneumonia or you are a cigarette smoker, you should avoid drinking tap water. Instead, boil water, let it cool and then refrigerate it for drinking. Since you do not have any of these risk factors, you are at little risk and you need not worry."

 

and

 

Q Can we allow showering in the hospital?

V It is very interesting to learn from The Lancet Infectious Disease, June 2003 article that virtually all outbreaks have been linked to potable water, and that showering is not a mode of transmission (except perhaps for high risk patients?).

Showering is allowed even for high-risk patients. Highly-immunosuppressed patients and COPD (emphysema) patients should drink bottled water or boiled water that has been cooled, but this is optional. If the percent of distal water sites is < 30%, we do not prohibit showering or drinking water for most patients even if Legionella is present in the water.

[tonyt40]

Obviously not UK based articles. They both go against Dept of Health guidance for Hospitals, Hse guidance and UK law. I would say the the person's making these comments were not carrying the responsibilities of a Duty Holder or Responsible person (Water systems) in a a UK hospital and being held accountable under the corporate manslaughter act should something serious go wrong.

In a UK hospital routine monitoring is undertaken and on Detection of Legionella in a water system is a very serious discovery and measures would be put in place immediately. The measures may be dependant on the serogroup of the bacteria. Probably local or system chlorination and drinking water from bottles. Showers could be used but would be fitted with a wras approved point of use filter and similar on taps. Loads of flushing a resampling.

 

The document we work to is Htm 04 and will soon become part 4 of HSG274.

 

The info from 2003 not wrong but is a little outdated now being about 14yrs old. Views have changed and new documents written.

[mross]

You state that showers pose no real risk. Wasn't the 1976 outbreak that named Legionaries disease due to shower heads?

No.

[mross]

The US protocols are basically the same.

Edited January 5, 2017 by mross

[tonyt40]

No.

Correct answer

[mross]

Did you mean to agree?

 

You asked, "Wasn't the 1976 outbreak that named Legionaries disease due to shower heads?" And I said, "no".

 

What is your profession, out of interest?

[robtheplod]

At our marina today they opened all the taps to flush the system to minimize legionnaires apparently.  This started me searching and found this thread which has frightened the bejeebers out of me as we leave our boat for weeks with water in the tank. what's considered the best method to avoid this issue?  not keep on putting bleach in the tank as im sure i'll overdo it!!

[MtB]

3 minutes ago, robtheplod said:

At our marina today they opened all the taps to flush the system to minimize legionnaires apparently.  This started me searching and found this thread which has frightened the bejeebers out of me as we leave our boat for weeks with water in the tank. what's considered the best method to avoid this issue?  not keep on putting bleach in the tank as im sure i'll overdo it!!

 

AIUI Legionella is only a problem in warm water kept at under about 55c. 

 

But then I'm not that well-informed about it as it's not my specialisation. So DYOR.

[GUMPY]

it doesn't multiply in cold water and the risk from drinking is low.

It is soon killed by water over 60deg so if you heat your water properly its not a problem. 

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

As the showers were 'infrequently' used at the golf club, HSE insisted that we implemented a regime of cleaning / sterilising the shower water supply.

Apparently it can be rife in shower hot water systems, and even in hose pipes (with water standing in them) which have been left out in the Sun.

I've no idea where the Legionnaires comes from.

 

HOT tubs, spa baths and even garden hose pipes could harbour potentially lethal bacteria that causes Legionnaries’ disease, a leading charity has warned.

 

The growing popularity for installing garden hot tubs poses a risk for the serious disease to be contracted in the summer months, with new advice issued on how to prevent the bacteria forming.

The combination of warm weather and sitting water creates the perfect environment for Legionella bacteria to grow, according to a warning issued by the Chartered Institute of Plumbing and Heating Engineering (CIPHE).

 

Figures from Public Health England show a seasonal rise in cases from June to October. Crucially, last year saw a huge leap in Legionnaires cases, up from a yearly average of 500 to 814.

 

 

“What people don’t realise is that these appliances need to be correctly installed and maintained, while also being regularly cleaned and chlorinated. Harmful Legionella bacteria can incubate in as little as 2-10 days, meaning that those who let their maintenance and disinfection regime slip, could be at risk.

“Additionally, there is no legislation covering domestic hot tub installations. With annual deaths caused by poor plumbing now outnumbering those caused by Carbon Monoxide poisoning, the general public need to be made aware of the dangers that poorly designed or maintained systems can bring.”

Edited August 12, 2023 by Alan de Enfield

[LadyG]

On 24/03/2011 at 13:18, Bobbybass said:

Just a warning to those who are not liveaboard and are recommisioning their boat.

I am not medically trained and this is just based on my own nasty experience.

 

This time last year while getting my boat up and running I developed a horrible cough. I thought it would go away but it didn't...it got worse..I started to feel lousy and then I had horrible night sweats where I woke up and we had to change all the sheets because they...and I ...were ringing wet.

I went to see my GP and he said it was probably bronchitus and gave me steroids.

It got worse...and eventually I walked into A&E in Rugby hospital...within an hour I was on oxygen...and in a bed !

I was like a pin cushion...and had other 'more invasive' tests...

It was eventually diagnosed as Legionnella...which had turned to pneumonia.

I was very unwell !!

 

The hospital didn't offer any ideas of where it came from..but I started looking it up.

During last year there was a warning about car windscreen washers..that are a big source in UK. This was because many people caught it in Wales last year...

Something like...18 people caught it from garden centre compost.

 

Many people don't know they have it..they think they have some nasty flu...and it goes away on its own...but if you are elderly or have some illness (I am diabetic)...it may prove extreme or fatal.

 

In many cases...it can lurk in old water in shower pipes...and you turn it on...put your head under it...and breathe it straight in...!

I think this is what happened to me.

 

I am going to be thoroughly flushing the system with Miltons before I fill properly..

 

I have posted this here..because I don't want anyone else goes through this.

 

Bob

Milton is too weak, you need the sterilising tablets and read the instructions, you should know roughly how much water is in your system, make sure tablets are dissolved before adding to the tank. If you can't get tablets use bleach, but that's a bit rough and ready. If you can drink the water it's not strong enough.

Obviously run all the taps particularly the shower to drain the tank. If you add water at a highish pressure you will disturb the crud.,

The shower head  can be removed and checked for muck, leave it to soak for 20 mins in dilute bleach.

Maybe use a bottle brush to see if the feed pipe is dirty.

I rarely use public eg hotel showers, if I do, I don't let any water get in my mouth.

 

 

Edited August 12, 2023 by LadyG