K&A Trust v Narrowboatworld

[Neil TNC]

One of the Country's best known Voluntary Organizations is perhaps the National Trust, A registered charity which gives all it's members significant benefits.

 

 

Yes...the grand daddy of all charities...I am a member of the NT, we join to have an "educational experience" when we go round their properties. Mind you they even manage to get away with a boater related benefit - 10% discount of Wey and Godalming Navigation visitor licence....so there is hope yet.

When you go to the Eden Project (charity), you can gift aid your entrance fee back, as you are having an "educational experience".

[David Schweizer]

I got that idea being an IWA trustee for 4 years and Neil Edwards banging that idea into our heads. Certainly under the present IWA constitution it cannot give benefits in kind to its membership (as was being mentioned), only educational benefits to all, whether the membership or not. The examples you give are for "educational benefits". Giving free insurance, craft licencing and discounts to members could not be called an "educational benefit".

But you stated "cannot give benefits" if you had said "are restricted in the type of benefits they can give" then I would not have challenged you, but what you stated was simply wrong. Even the IWA which you quote affords benefits to it's members by way of reduced entry fees and discounted products,etc. or do you not consider these to be benefits?

 

The National Trust Affords it's members free admission to all but a handful of properties, have they got it wrong as well?

 

How many years ago was this?

 

Tone

 

The Exibition was about three or four years ago, All I can remember was that it rained all day and most of the site was under several inches of water. The person supposedly organizing the exhibition was a woman who I think lived in London, but most or the arrangements semed to be made by Stuart.

 

The Local boat club affair was about the same time. Stuart was Chairman at the time.

Edited February 3, 2011 by David Schweizer

[canaldrifter]

until they make it more attractive, they will remain a tiny, impotent club.

 

It isn't a 'tiny' club. Niel's estimate of 2,000 members is about right as far as I know. It isn't much compared with the total number of inland boat owners, but it is far more than any other inland boating 'club'. (The IWA hasn't been a representative boating organisation for years. It's remit is too broad. Their inability to be so was the very reason that Nabo was formed.) The membership is certainly enough to gain the ear of those in control of us, however.

 

It isn't an 'impotent club'. It is an organisation that has represented boaters interests on user groups, BSS steering committees, the MCA, BW and EA consultation committees and even at parliamentary waterway groups. Been there. Done that.

 

So to call it a 'tiny, impotent club' is.... well..... just juvenile....

 

But I personally take on board your criticism that it must improve its image. I will do my best to get council to take it on board too.... not that I'm on council now, but I am willing to try.

 

Tone

 

But you stated "cannot give benefits" if you had said "are restricted in the type of benefits they can give" then I would not have challenged you, but what you stated was simply wrong. Even the IWA which you quote affords benefits to it's members by way of reduced entry fees and discounted products,etc. or do you not consider these to be benefits?

 

The National Trust Affords it's members free admission to all but a handful of properties, have they got it wrong as well?

 

 

 

The Exibition was at least three or four years ago, All I can remember was that it rained all day and most of the site was under several inches of water. The person supposedly organizing the exhibition was a woman who I think lived in London, but most or the arrangements semed to be made by Stuart.

 

The Local boat club affair was about the same time. Stuart was Chairman at the time.

 

I'll PM you David.

 

Tone

[carlt]

 

But I personally take on board your criticism that it must improve its image. I will do my best to get council to take it on board too.... not that I'm on council now, but I am willing to try.

 

If it's any consolation I've just been Googling around, trying to find out what proportion of anglers are in the, unified, Anglers' Trust.

 

Some of the vitriol poured out against that organisation, by its members, makes what is being aimed at the NABO seem like fan mail.

[deletedaccount]

There is no catch 22.

 

From their website:

 

The National Association of Boat Owners is dedicated to promoting the interests of private boaters on Britain's canals, rivers and lakes, so that their voice can be heard when decisions are being made which might affect their boating. NABO will always challenge injustice where necessary at the highest level.

 

The Association does not cater for a broad spectrum of waterway interests, as so doing could prevent it from taking a strong stand on boating issues, e.g. unnecessary boat safety requirements, excessive licence and mooring fees, poor dredging, any loss of freedom to navigate or moor on waterways etc. It will advise on individual members' problems, as well as taking up local issues and matters of national concern. It is not a social club, a cruising club, or a canal society.

 

NABO was formed in 1991, by a group of boat owners who felt that none of the existing organisations adequately put forward their views to the waterway authorities. It is run by a Council elected at an Annual General Meeting each November, consisting of up to 12 volunteers, who meet in Birmingham every six weeks. There are no specific regional meetings or sub-committees, but each area of the country has a Regional Secretary on the Council, and there is a River Users Co-ordinator to look after the special interests of boat owners on rivers.

 

NABO depends almost entirely on members subscriptions for its income. In its short life, it has gained recognition from all the major navigational authorities, other waterway organisations, and government bodies. Its arguments are listened to with respect, and it is frequently consulted on important issues. Its members are kept in touch through the newsletter - NABO News, e-mail bulletins and the members' pages on this site. Any member is welcome to attend Council meetings, or phone, write to or email Council members with their views or concerns.

 

 

 

Well of course I'm defensive of Nabo..... in the face of some really unjust criticism. I have seen and do see what they do. I've been a part of it.

 

I haven't been active on Nabo council for some years due to health issues, mostly, but you do make one good point. They need a good PR rep who can publicise their achievements. It would also be sensible to make Nabo News available to non-members, not just members, on the website.

 

 

 

Tone

 

 

 

'They' are just boaters, with a passion for the waterways, who have made the effort to get off their back-sides and do something in the face of a lot of juvenile sneering from other boaters.

 

Tone

 

Tone, I'm not sure I can bang my head on the table any more.

 

Just repeating that fairly empty prose from the website does nothing to answer my question and further highlights the communication problem NABO has with non-members. You can see that, right? I'm not criticisng what you do. How can I? I still don't know what it is. That description contains more about what NABO is not.

[canaldrifter]

Tone, I'm not sure I can bang my head on the table any more.

 

Just repeating that fairly empty prose from the website does nothing to answer my question and further highlights the communication problem NABO has with non-members. You can see that, right? I'm not criticisng what you do. How can I? I still don't know what it is. That description contains more about what NABO is not.

 

Then banging your head (it isn't good for clear thinking) and tell us what you would like it to say.

 

Tone

 

If it's any consolation I've just been Googling around, trying to find out what proportion of anglers are in the, unified, Anglers' Trust.

 

Some of the vitriol poured out against that organisation, by its members, makes what is being aimed at the NABO seem like fan mail.

 

I thought it was fan mail....

 

Tone

Edited February 3, 2011 by canaldrifter

[Allan(nb Albert)]

The following two articles may give some indication of what NABO actually does -

 

Ultra vires

 

Discriminating against residential moorers

[dor]

So, you'd throw out the whole barrel of apples because you found a bad one?

 

Well, if that was the main experience I had of that particular bunch of apples, then yes, I probably would.

 

As far as I was aware, this person was representing NABO and as such seemed to think that bridge-hopping and overstaying was acceptable practice. I don't, and I am hardly likely to support an organisation that did.

 

It seems to add to the general feeling on here that NABO fails to represent the majority of boaters' views. And telling us to join it and change it is not an answer.

[canaldrifter]

Well, if that was the main experience I had of that particular bunch of apples, then yes, I probably would.

 

As far as I was aware, this person was representing NABO and as such seemed to think that bridge-hopping and overstaying was acceptable practice. I don't, and I am hardly likely to support an organisation that did.

 

It seems to add to the general feeling on here that NABO fails to represent the majority of boaters' views. And telling us to join it and change it is not an answer.

 

Please don't also make the mistake of thinking that the views expressed here are those of the majority of boaters.

 

Tone

[David Schweizer]

Please don't also make the mistake of thinking that the views expressed here are those of the majority of boaters.

 

Tone

I don't think anyone is suggesting that Tony. My views are based on my experiences, it is up to others to judge whether they are unique or symptomatic of a more general problem.

 

Unfortunatly I know a lot more than I can publish here. Suffice it to say that until at least two members of the Council are removed, I will never consider re joining NABO, but as there is no democratic process through which that can be achieved, you will have to consider me a long term ex-member.

Edited February 3, 2011 by David Schweizer

[deletedaccount]

The following two articles may give some indication of what NABO actually does -

 

Ultra vires

 

Discriminating against residential moorers

 

Thanks. I'm not sure why the NABO website doesn't mention things like this.

 

*bangs head on desk*

[Allan(nb Albert)]

Thanks. I'm not sure why the NABO website doesn't mention things like this.

 

*bangs head on desk*

 

I think it is simply a case of poor external communication rather than trying to hide anything.

[deletedaccount]

I think it's weirdly a bit of both.

[carlt]

I think it is simply a case of poor external communication rather than trying to hide anything.

But if it isn't made public then misinformation takes hold and the feeling becomes "Oh they made a bit of noise and now they've given up again.

 

The "Ultra Vires" case is, possibly, the most important thing they've done and, if clarification of the law is the result, then that is of benefit to all boaters (and worth the subs alone).

 

I do hope it doesn't get buried, with BW's move to trust status, though.

[mayalld]

NABO is a faulted organisation. We are all faulted human beings. But at least it tries. It does its best and has had considerable success in challenging and changing certain ill-conceived schemes by BW, and in representing poorly treated members.

 

Members who encourage council and thank them for the work they do, and there are plenty of them, do not post their comments here. Why should they?

 

When I was on council I was very aware that NABO council considered itself to be representing its membership on issues that the membership raised. It also felt that in general it was doing its work for the benefit of all boaters, whether members or not.

 

Criticism such as we read here, from those unable or unprepared to make a useful contribution themselves, was and is always very hard to take, considering that all council members give up their free time, unpaid, when they'd rather be boating, to try to keep a degree of sanity in our waterways management. It is true that in the past council has unfortunately been dominated by one particular person. The present council is of far better stock.

 

When folks leave NABO, there is an opportunity to state their reasons for doing so. In my years on council, the main reason by far was 'giving up boating'. That is of the deepest concern. I predict that it will increase greatly in the next few years. It might pay those who want to try to stick it out in these hard times to support NABO in standing up for boaters' interests.

 

Tone

 

And it is a response such as that from somebody who used to be on NABO council that is indicative of the extent of the problem.

 

No matter how many people tell you that they are members but are dissatisfied, or that they used to be members but left because the organisation pursued the agenda of an inner clique, you are unable to hear.

 

All you can do is trot out all the wonderful things that NABO does, oblivious to the fact that they have, in some cases, pursued a course that is in direct opposition to what the membership wanted.

[Allan(nb Albert)]

But if it isn't made public then misinformation takes hold and the feeling becomes "Oh they made a bit of noise and now they've given up again.

 

The "Ultra Vires" case is, possibly, the most important thing they've done and, if clarification of the law is the result, then that is of benefit to all boaters (and worth the subs alone).

 

I do hope it doesn't get buried, with BW's move to trust status, though.

 

Agreed

 

Agreed

 

Agreed

 

Perhaps someone will be motivated to join NABO and take on the role of external relations.

[sueb]

Definitely. I think that would be a really good idea, and maybe a few back issues of NABO news so that people can see what else they're buying into.

They are on the web site.

Sue

[canaldrifter]

They are on the web site.

Sue

 

 

But only accessible to members, Sue. that could be altered.

 

Tone

 

Agreed

 

Agreed

 

Agreed

 

Perhaps someone will be motivated to join NABO and take on the role of external relations.

 

Or maybe someone already in Nabo could take it on..... if allowed. I can do positive stuff as well as negative stuff, y'know!

One thing I have learnt from this very interesting exchange is that Nabo does need to project a better image and sort out its PR.

 

Tone

[dor]

One thing I have learnt from this very interesting exchange is that Nabo does need to project a better image and sort out its PR.

 

That's true Tone, but the same could be said for a business that wants to sell dodgy products over the phone. What NABO really needs to do is to listen to boaters and get rid of its very cliquey management that seems to just want to persue its own agenda rather than that of boaters in general. That is also something that could be learnt from this interesting exchange.

[Allan(nb Albert)]

That's true Tone, but the same could be said for a business that wants to sell dodgy products over the phone. What NABO really needs to do is to listen to boaters and get rid of its very cliquey management that seems to just want to persue its own agenda rather than that of boaters in general. That is also something that could be learnt from this interesting exchange.

 

Are you suggesting that NABO listen to non-members rather than members?

 

Do you think that the views of NABO members differ from those of non-members?

 

What is this 'own agenda'? How does it differ from what members or non members want?

[howardang]

That's true Tone, but the same could be said for a business that wants to sell dodgy products over the phone. What NABO really needs to do is to listen to boaters and get rid of its very cliquey management that seems to just want to persue its own agenda rather than that of boaters in general. That is also something that could be learnt from this interesting exchange.

Tony may have a point about communications although the revamped web site and the rehashed NABO News has, hopefully, gone a long way to address this point.I am, however, intruiged by the description from DOR of its "very cliquey management". I would very much like to know on what basis this judgement is made. I don't know who DOR is and to my knowledge I have never seen him/her at meetings.

 

As a Council member, what I see is a small but extremely hard working team which is trying to do its best to represent its members. Despite repeated calls to the membership for more people to help by getting involved regionally and at Council, like many other organisations the work is left to a very small group and as a group we spend an inordinate amount of time on NABO business. I for one would much prefer to spend more time boating.

 

I have to say that I do not recognise the NABO I know when compared to some of the descriptions in this thread and I wonder how much out of date these opinions are? By and large, what feedback we get from members is extremely encouraging and approving, so if there are members out there who want to express disapproval about how we go about things then please get in touch with us, rather than winge on a forum such as this. Indeed, if there are those who feel strongly, you are very much aware that you are welcome to come to any Council meeting and express your views.

 

Howard Anguish

Vice Chairman, NABO

Edited February 3, 2011 by howardang

[carlt]

Are you suggesting that NABO listen to non-members rather than members?

 

If they want new members then yes, they should listen to what prospective members want, then offer it.

 

If they want to remain the size they are then they need to be more democratic and listen to their existing members, but ignore the outside world.

 

If they want to fizzle away, into a small group of old fogies, sat in the snug, moaning about the lack of numbers, then they just need to listen to what the 'inner circle' want, in their sandwiches, at the next meeting.

[dor]

You don't have to be a member of an organisation to have an opinion of how it goes about its business.

 

 

I think Carl has eloquently summed up what I was trying to say.

[Allan(nb Albert)]

You don't have to be a member of an organisation to have an opinion of how it goes about its business.

 

 

I think Carl has eloquently summed up what I was trying to say.

[sueb]

To get this in perspective the criticism of Nabo has come from about 5 members of this forum.

 

I am not saying that some criticism has merit but most is due to misconceptions on the part of these forum members. I feel this subject has taken up enough of the K&A Trust v Narrowboatworld. Anyone is welcome to pm me or to meet in person to discuss Nabo. I am a volunteer and I come on this forum for entertainment and relaxation.

Sue