K&A Trust v Narrowboatworld

[Chris Pink]

Yes I remember Brian well, and still saw him from time to time. Did you know he passed away a couple of weeks ago?

 

 

 

No I didn't, he must have been a ripe old age.

 

I liked Brian a lot, a very grounded person with a wealth of knowledge and skill and always prepared to share that knowledge and help people.

 

I will be interested to see if gets an obituary in The Butty

[KenK]

I thought I'd add my take on the K and A Trust, for what it's worth;

 

The Kennet and Avon Association - top geezers, without whom there certainly would not be a canal there, no praise is high enough. When they became the Trust, some of them hung around, a bit bored, a bit old. And gradually the more curmudgeonly factions took over, closing the doors to young blood.

 

David, in particular, will remember Brian off Peggy-Sue at the wharf, a very helpful and approachable face of the Trust as restorers and operators of the Canal. Bradford was never the same after he was ousted.

 

A failed and allegedly corrupt 'Enterprise' spin-off lost them a lot of support.

 

Now, the local associations, especially on the Rivers Avon and Kennet (yo respect the Tyle Mill bunch), keep their heads down, do a fine job, mobilise volunteers, maintain and improve, likewise the Crofton and Claverton gangs.

 

The overall management though is in chaos, as correctly reported by NBW - though I can see why Ken rankles at their rather gleeful tone. The gold of taking over management of the canal as proposed by head-in-the-clouds idiots at BW has gone to some power seeking heads. The turnover of chairmen is probably not unrelated to this, Rees wouldn't have known a canal if he'd fallen into one. I don't know the others but I would imagine they come in, look at the low membership, the lack of money and the fact that you wouldn't trust Simon 'Satan' Salem with the price of a pint of milk, then run a mile.

 

The move of The Butty from paper to online, while maybe an economic success, was so badly mismanaged as to alienate a lot of people who have put in a lot of time and hard work over the years, removed a very visible flag of the Trust, a magazine that got about far wider than an inward looking online newspaper, simply by being on the tables in the cafés for instance.

 

There's also the self-serving geezer from Vodafone.... can't remember his name, but he does the Trust no favours.

 

The name 'Trust' is a clue peeps.

 

A few misconceptions in your post.

 

Dacid Rees left for personal reasons. Neil Lethby and David Inight are both long serving members who stepped in to cover the role until a new chairman could be found. Mike Rodd was the paid general manager but to save money he will no longer be paid and is due to take over the chairmans role.

 

The Butty is still a paper magazine, some of the membership as you point out is getting on a bit and many of them don't do internet. The new editors, father and daughter team, have managed to reduce the costs and improve the advertising to such an extent that it is now cost neutral to produce. Non members can purchase the latest edition from our shops or the website, which has also been brought up to date.

 

As far as taking over the management of the canal, I don't know where that idea comes from. BW in watever guise they eventually become will still be in overall charge although the Trust will have a geater say in how the money supplied to the waterway manager Mark Stevens will be spent.

 

Your point about the change from the Association to the Trust is a valid one, the goal of the Association was a simple one to reopen the canal, however once that was done the aims become more difficult to define. BW was and is in charge of the day to day running and maintenance, so what is the purpose of the trust? It has been a difficult question for some years but the proposed changes to BW and a greater involvement by the Trust should I hope clafify matters.

 

We are of course always on the lookout for new blood with new ideas, lots of people have made their home on the K&A, It always invokes comment usually negative. I'd like to see them join the Trust and get involved, which could be a positive move for everyone.

 

Ken

[Allan(nb Albert)]

I get the impression that Allan(nbAlbert), a regular poster on this forum, is the Allan Richards that regularly reports on the activities of BW for NBW. If that is the case he might have an opinion regarding the accuracies/inaccuracies of NBW's reporting on that subject.

Roger

 

It was not my article and Ken has already responded in NbW.

 

If it had been my article, I would have referred to the charity pilot involving KACT Trust and BW and queried why we have not seen anything tangible come out in over six months.

 

BW press release

 

I would also ask why BW is asking for volunteers on the K&A when KACT is doing the same thing. Why not a joint approach via the charity pilot.

 

BW press release

Edited February 1, 2011 by Allan(nb Albert)

[Chris Pink]

 

 

The Butty is still a paper magazine, some of the membership as you point out is getting on a bit and many of them don't do internet. The new editors, father and daughter team, have managed to reduce the costs and improve the advertising to such an extent that it is now cost neutral to produce. Non members can purchase the latest edition from our shops or the website, which has also been brought up to date.

 

As far as taking over the management of the canal, I don't know where that idea comes from. BW in watever guise they eventually become will still be in overall charge although the Trust will have a geater say in how the money supplied to the waterway manager Mark Stevens will be spent.

 

We are of course always on the lookout for new blood with new ideas, lots of people have made their home on the K&A, It always invokes comment usually negative. I'd like to see them join the Trust and get involved, which could be a positive move for everyone.

 

 

in order;

 

Ok, I take your point about there still being a paper butty, it still remains that I would see copies of the old magazine 'hanging around' on the tables in the cafe in Bradford for instance, I have yet to see a copy of the new Butty.

 

The Press release given by Allan above seems to contradict what you are saying.

 

The younger boaters including liveaboards on the Western end (Long Pound westwards) perceive the Trust as hostile. There is a certain amount of evidence for this that I don't wish to discuss on open forum but it is certainly true that there is an enormous amount of young energy and enthusiastic love of the canal that the Trust have never, to my knowledge, targeted for membership.

[mayalld]

 

The younger boaters including liveaboards on the Western end (Long Pound westwards) perceive the Trust as hostile.

 

Do you have any opinion as to what gives rise to that perception, and what underlying causes there might be?

[Albion]

It was not my article and Ken has already responded in NbW.

 

 

Sorry, I didn't mean the article about the K&A, I meant about BW funding, director's remuneration and that sort of thing that is posted on NBW. I thought that was you TBH.

 

I certainly agree that there is no point in re-inventing the wheel as far as volunteers for the K&A is concerned. There is an organisation set up that has done good work in the past getting the K&A into a usable state, why not continue to use their expertise and local knowledge? Some of the pioneers will now have passed on or moved on perhaps but, I would have thought that, there is still sufficient residual expertise available.

Roger

[Chris Pink]

Do you have any opinion as to what gives rise to that perception, and what underlying causes there might be?

 

yes.

[KenK]

in order;

 

Ok, I take your point about there still being a paper butty, it still remains that I would see copies of the old magazine 'hanging around' on the tables in the cafe in Bradford for instance, I have yet to see a copy of the new Butty.

 

The Press release given by Allan above seems to contradict what you are saying.

 

The younger boaters including liveaboards on the Western end (Long Pound westwards) perceive the Trust as hostile. There is a certain amount of evidence for this that I don't wish to discuss on open forum but it is certainly true that there is an enormous amount of young energy and enthusiastic love of the canal that the Trust have never, to my knowledge, targeted for membership.

I received my copy of the latest edition in December, so you should find them in the cafe.

 

The press release is typical BW flanel, yes we get a say but they retain overall control. It can't be any different as BW is governed by statute. When they become a charity things may be different however I suspect we will be in competition for funding along with lots of other Canal socities.

 

I'd agree there are lots of old fogies in the Trust and they do have entrenched ideas but you can't change things from the outside looking in. When people get involved, start talking, then ideas can change but it has to start somewhere. If we are going to have a waterways network in the future we are all going to have to do more and change the way in which we view other people and the way they wish to live their lives.

 

We and BW are looking for volunteers, not always for the same things. We have the trip boats, they need crews, Claverton and Crofton are always after more helpers. The Avon Vale, ex BW work boat only operates once a week at the moment more crew would alow it to do more for everyones benifit. Newbury branch runs the Newbury Festival, Reading the one there, more help is always needed.

 

Ken

[mayalld]

yes.

 

Would you care to share your thoughts?

[Allan(nb Albert)]

Sorry, I didn't mean the article about the K&A, I meant about BW funding, director's remuneration and that sort of thing that is posted on NBW. I thought that was you TBH.

 

I certainly agree that there is no point in re-inventing the wheel as far as volunteers for the K&A is concerned. There is an organisation set up that has done good work in the past getting the K&A into a usable state, why not continue to use their expertise and local knowledge? Some of the pioneers will now have passed on or moved on perhaps but, I would have thought that, there is still sufficient residual expertise available.

Roger

 

The articles published in NbW under the name Allan Richards in NbW are mine!

 

With regard to 'reinventing the wheel' the very fact that BW is setting up its own volunteering scheme rather than encouraging expansion of KACT's scheme should set alarm bells ringing on the K&A.

[Chris Pink]

We and BW are looking for volunteers, not always for the same things. We have the trip boats, they need crews, Claverton and Crofton are always after more helpers. The Avon Vale, ex BW work boat only operates once a week at the moment more crew would alow it to do more for everyones benifit. Newbury branch runs the Newbury Festival, Reading the one there, more help is always needed.

 

Ken

 

I'd be happy to crew on the Avonvale, i passed it the other day, looking good. I wondered whose it was.

 

 

Yes, I'll allow you The Butty, from the website (dreadful, hope it was cheap) looks a lot better than I'd imagined from the gossip.

 

Would you care to share your thoughts?

 

 

I can't put it better than this;

 

 

“I'd agree there are lots of old fogies in the Trust and they do have entrenched ideas but you can't change things from the outside looking in. When people get involved, start talking, then ideas can change but it has to start somewhere. If we are going to have a waterways network in the future we are all going to have to do more and change the way in which we view other people and the way they wish to live their lives.”

Edited February 1, 2011 by Chris Pink

[mayalld]

 

 

I can't put it better than this;

 

 

"I'd agree there are lots of old fogies in the Trust and they do have entrenched ideas but you can't change things from the outside looking in. When people get involved, start talking, then ideas can change but it has to start somewhere. If we are going to have a waterways network in the future we are all going to have to do more and change the way in which we view other people and the way they wish to live their lives."

 

Aspirational waffle is all well and good, but it doesn't answer the actual question!

 

• Specifically, what do the old fogies do that appears hostile.
• Are they intentionally hostile, or unwittingly so.
• If intentional, whence does their hostility spring.

[Chris Pink]

Aspirational waffle is all well and good, but it doesn't answer the actual question!

 

• Specifically, what do the old fogies do that appears hostile.
• Are they intentionally hostile, or unwittingly so.
• If intentional, whence does their hostility spring.

 

 

Well Dave, Impressed as I am at your ability to construct a list, I'm not playing to your desire to have an argument. I refer you to the post title, I also refer you to Ken's post as quoted by me.

 

Your inability to understand his point is, frankly, not my problem.

[mayalld]

Well Dave, Impressed as I am at your ability to construct a list, I'm not playing to your desire to have an argument. I refer you to the post title, I also refer you to Ken's post as quoted by me.

 

Your inability to understand his point is, frankly, not my problem.

 

I'm not trying to have an argument. I'm interested as to why there appears to be a problem.

[KenK]

Aspirational waffle is all well and good, but it doesn't answer the actual question!

 

• Specifically, what do the old fogies do that appears hostile.
• Are they intentionally hostile, or unwittingly so.
• If intentional, whence does their hostility spring.

 

As I posted it I will answer the question.

 

As you know there is a fair amount of criticism, some of it from you, regarding the liveaboards on the K&A, everyone on this forum is aware of it as it has been debated to death. Certainly some members of the trust consider that BW should “deal” with the problem, whatever that is supposed to mean. This summer between Foxhangers and Bath there were far more hire boats than liveaboards, but of course hire boats bring in revenue, never mind if the canal can’t support the numbers. In my opinion and it is mine not the Trusts both BW and the Trust need to find an accommodation with the liveabord boaters, it is not going to be easy but it has to be fair to everyone.

 

Ken

[canaldrifter]

In your opinion.

 

The fact is there is no organisation that is dedicated to the the interests of the Waterways (not just boaters) just little clubs masquerading as national organisations.

 

But that makes Sue's point. Being a 'sideline sniper' achieves nothing. You can't change things from the outside.

 

Tone

[Albion]

But that makes Sue's point. Being a 'sideline sniper' achieves nothing. You can't change things from the outside.

 

Tone

 

I can't somehow quite square your comments here with your constant criticism of, just for example, SOW in NBW (when you were a correspondent) and uk.rec.waterways then Tone.

Roger

[mayalld]

But that makes Sue's point. Being a 'sideline sniper' achieves nothing. You can't change things from the outside.

 

Tone

 

Remind us which organisations you parted company with and sniped at subsequently

[cotswoldsman]

As I posted it I will answer the question.

 

As you know there is a fair amount of criticism, some of it from you, regarding the liveaboards on the K&A, everyone on this forum is aware of it as it has been debated to death. Certainly some members of the trust consider that BW should "deal" with the problem, whatever that is supposed to mean. This summer between Foxhangers and Bath there were far more hire boats than liveaboards, but of course hire boats bring in revenue, never mind if the canal can't support the numbers. In my opinion and it is mine not the Trusts both BW and the Trust need to find an accommodation with the liveabord boaters, it is not going to be easy but it has to be fair to everyone.

 

Ken

 

 

This is the bit I always have a problem with, yes I know the licence for a hire boat is higher but how else do they bring in more revenue than say when I was on the K&A last year?

Edited to day: Sorry revenue for who?

Edited February 1, 2011 by cotswoldsman

[Chris Pink]

Remind us which organisations you parted company with and sniped at subsequently

 

Aah good, someone's giving you the argument you so obviously crave today.

 

This is the bit I always have a problem with, yes I know the licence for a hire boat is higher but how else do they bring in more revenue than say when I was on the K&A last year?

Edited to day: Sorry revenue for who?

 

The licence cost is much higher for a hire boat and there are also the costs of marinas or moorings for them.

 

I think, in reality, the differential is not the whole problem. A lot of it is cultural; APCO and BW sit around the same cosy lunches and both turn their noses up at the slightest hint of a muddy boot.

[mayalld]

Aah good, someone's giving you the argument you so obviously crave today.

 

Have I attempted to argue with you today?

 

The meagre pickings of arging Phylis into a corner are enough for me.

[KenK]

This is the bit I always have a problem with, yes I know the licence for a hire boat is higher but how else do they bring in more revenue than say when I was on the K&A last year?

Edited to day: Sorry revenue for who?

Hire boat companies, pubs, restaurants, shops etc. I don't think hire boats are bad by the way just there are now so many on such a short stretch of waterway but the liveaboards get the blame for the canal congestion.

 

Ken

[carlt]

But that makes Sue's point. Being a 'sideline sniper' achieves nothing. You can't change things from the outside.

 

The clubs are not on the "inside" they are merely clubs that are not taken seriously, with the exception of poacher turned gamekeeper, the IWA.

 

It doesn't make Sue's point at all. I have no interest in being in a club that has no interest in me. What is the point?

 

There is a need for a national organisation that is interested in fighting for the interests of all canal users, not just their little clique.

 

The NABO carries no respect, because of its "OBN" reputation and the IWA has capitulated, in the hope that it can become the new BW.

 

The others are just niche societies (NABO included) who are not interested in anyone else's interests but their own.

 

They don't want to change so there is no point getting back on the "inside" because the rhetoric hasn't changed since when I was there.

[cotswoldsman]

Hire boat companies, pubs, restaurants, shops etc. I don't think hire boats are bad by the way just there are now so many on such a short stretch of waterway but the liveaboards get the blame for the canal congestion.

 

Ken

 

Ken I am not trying to argue with you personally just trying to understand why it is presumed that hire boaters spend more in pubs, restaurants and shops than boat owners. When I was on K&A I had to eat every night, lunch etc and most nights that was in a pub, when I did not eat in a pub I either bought my food from a take away or a shop. I purchased coal from the coal boat. I watched a family arrive on changeover day at Bradford (think it was a Oxford hire boat) and they had enough bags from Tesco to keep them going for a week and then loaded enough beer to last a month, not sure where it was all bought but I am sure Tesco were pleased!!!

[canaldrifter]

I can't somehow quite square your comments here with your constant criticism of, just for example, SOW in NBW (when you were a correspondent) and uk.rec.waterways then Tone.

Roger

 

Just a little under the belt, Roger.

 

I was an active early member of SOW. For a whole season I used my boat with banners to cruise the system on a recruiting campaign, with the help of others. I did my best to keep SOW on track as a protest organisation, which is what most members wanted at that time. I could see that the direction it was being taken by the chairman and his constitution was not going to be useful. Local councils won't have the money to contribute to waterway upkeep. They still don't. I was kept off the committee because they didn't want anyone who didn't tow Wills' line. I left.

 

I did not sit on the sidelines.

 

Similarly with NABO, of which I am a member still. I was Vice Chair for three years. I represented NABO on no les than six committees, not counting numerous user groups. I gave that up when I could see it was being heavily 'steered' by one forceful individual. I did not sit on the outside sniping at council, as others did.

 

As I said then and still say, you can't change things from the outside. I will add that sometimes you can't on the inside either.... but I had a damned good try.

 

I stayed loyal to NBW and its editor until suddenly I found myself out-of-favour because I disagreed with him. I jumped before I was pushed.

 

But yes, I can see where you are coming from, if you've been listening to those who dislike me... bless 'em.

 

You can't be passionate and hold strong opinions about the waterways without making enemies.

 

So be it. Watch this space.

 

Tone

Edited February 1, 2011 by canaldrifter