K&A Trust v Narrowboatworld

[Neil TNC]

NABO is not a charity, that's why it could give "benifits to members"...a charity like the IWA can not.

Some boating organisations do give benefits to members, that is why they prosper.

Me and Mrs TNC are about to join Canoe England (British Canoe Union) (Mrs TNC has bought a canoe!) your membership gets you licenced for BW/EA waters, 3rd Party Liability Insurance (up to £10 million) and a lot of discounts.....I cannot somehow see NABO doing this for narrowboaters!

[David Schweizer]

NABO is not a charity, that's why it could give "benifits to members"...a charity like the IWA can not.

Some boating organisations do give benefits to members, that is why they prosper.

Me and Mrs TNC are about to join Canoe England (British Canoe Union) (Mrs TNC has bought a canoe!) your membership gets you licenced for BW/EA waters, 3rd Party Liability Insurance (up to £10 million) and a lot of discounts.....I cannot somehow see NABO doing this for narrowboaters!

I do not know where you got that idea from, may I suggest that you go back to your source on Charitable Law and check that statement. What you may be confusing is the difference between the status of the Trustees and the Membership.

 

One of the Country's best known Voluntary Organizations is perhaps the National Trust, A registered charity which gives all it's members significant benefits.

 

The reality is that many, if not most, Charities exist primarily for the benefit of it's members, for example virtually every Voluntary Youth Club and Community Association in England and Wales is either a Registered Charity, or of Charitable Status, and under the Charity Commissioners "Educational Services" critera the constuitution has to identify the Educational benifits to the membership in order to qualify.

Edited February 3, 2011 by David Schweizer

[canaldrifter]

NABO is a faulted organisation. We are all faulted human beings. But at least it tries. It does its best and has had considerable success in challenging and changing certain ill-conceived schemes by BW, and in representing poorly treated members.

 

Members who encourage council and thank them for the work they do, and there are plenty of them, do not post their comments here. Why should they?

 

When I was on council I was very aware that NABO council considered itself to be representing its membership on issues that the membership raised. It also felt that in general it was doing its work for the benefit of all boaters, whether members or not.

 

Criticism such as we read here, from those unable or unprepared to make a useful contribution themselves, was and is always very hard to take, considering that all council members give up their free time, unpaid, when they'd rather be boating, to try to keep a degree of sanity in our waterways management. It is true that in the past council has unfortunately been dominated by one particular person. The present council is of far better stock.

 

When folks leave NABO, there is an opportunity to state their reasons for doing so. In my years on council, the main reason by far was 'giving up boating'. That is of the deepest concern. I predict that it will increase greatly in the next few years. It might pay those who want to try to stick it out in these hard times to support NABO in standing up for boaters' interests.

 

Tone

[canaldrifter]

when Stuart and Carole resigned their posts, they left a void into which people with little experience or training (or I understand enthusiasm) were shoehorned.

Then you 'understand' wrong.

 

 

 

Tone

Edited February 3, 2011 by canaldrifter

[carlt]

 

Criticism such as we read here, from those unable or unprepared to make a useful contribution themselves,

What do you know about the contribution people, who are critical about NABO, make?

 

Just because I choose to criticise what I see to be nothing more than a private members club, masquerading as a national association does not mean I have not made any contribution to the waterways, during my 30 years of involvement.

 

Dismissal of the constructive criticism, here, rather than taking it on board and learning from it, is precisely the reason I, and am sure many others, would not consider joining.

 

NABO because of its cliquey, exclusive image is unable to unite boaters and campaign for all boaters rights.

 

Compare and contrast the failure of the NABO, to inspire boaters to join, with the success of the Anglers' lobby to unite coarse, sea and game anglers under one umbrella...and the concessions and benefits that the British Canoe Union has won, for its members.

[canaldrifter]

 

 

so instead of saying you don't like something, get involved and if you speak up eventually you will be heard and even be respected if you get things back on track.

 

 

 

Precisely.

 

Tone

 

Well my tuppence-worth:

 

My experience of NABO is more limited, but one of their recruiters (I don't know what his official position is, but his boat was decked out in lots of NABO banners exhorting people to join and support NABO). He was moored on the towpath nearby for several months except for a little light bridge-hopping. On enquiring what NABO's views were on "continuous moorers" I was subjected to a string of mild abuse. The feeling I get here is that this may well be representitive of NABO as it seems to be the attitude of "we do things our way and don't question it"

 

So, you'd throw out the whole barrel of apples because you found a bad one?

 

Tone

[carlt]

Precisely.

 

Really?

 

If they made Marmite taste nice then I'd buy it. If they said "buy Marmite and, one day, it might taste nice" I would say "give me a shout when it does taste nice and I'll give it a try.".

 

Give me a shout when NABO is welcoming and receptive of criticism, makes an attempt to be attractive to new members and caters for more than just the interests of a tiny minority of boaters, then I'll give it a try.

 

I don't buy something I don't like in the hope that, one day, it might be to my taste.

 

Edited to add: For those peculiar people that like Marmite...substitute a substance less fabulously tasty....like poo, or something.

Edited February 3, 2011 by carlt

[David Schweizer]

Then you 'understand' wrong.

 

 

 

Tone

Realy? I was told by a member of the Council at the time that no one wanted to occupy one, of not more, of the Senior positions.

[canaldrifter]

I've looked through their (terrible) website and it seems to consist of them commenting on BW proposals/changes. As in "we agree with X, disagree with Y". It also seems their AGM minutes are only available to members. Which is not particuarly helpful given that's probably the only doc that's going to tell me what they're actually doing.

 

There are always sensitive issues that it would be foolish to 'minute' to the general public too soon. Showing one's hand is not a good idea in the poker game with BW. However, you do have a point. During my short time as editor of Nabo News, I was severely castigated for publishing an edited version of council minutes, which I felt, using editorial freedom, I was able to do. I don't think it would harm Nabo council to be a little more open in what it does. Publishing edited versions of the minutes on its website would be a good idea, that could benefit recruitment.

 

Maybe council should consider this, Sue?

 

Tone

[deletedaccount]

NABO is a faulted organisation. We are all faulted human beings. But at least it tries. It does its best and has had considerable success in challenging and changing certain ill-conceived schemes by BW, and in representing poorly treated members.

 

Has it? Like what?

 

For an outsider point of view I see nothing since 1995.

 

You'll probably take this the wrong way, but your website sucks at getting your message out. That's not an opinion, it's a fact, and I think it's something you really need to address. I know nothing about NABO apart from what I read here (both sides) and your website. And that adds up to hardly anything.

[canaldrifter]

What do you know about the contribution people, who are critical about NABO, make?

 

I know they don't make a useful contribution to Nabo, Carl.....

 

 

Tone

[carlt]

I know they don't make a useful contribution to Nabo, Carl.....

Tone

Why should we?

 

I do not see NABO making any useful contribution, merely serving their own interests and sneering at anyone who criticises or doesn't fit their definition of a 'real boater'.

[deletedaccount]

There are always sensitive issues that it would be foolish to 'minute' to the general public too soon. Showing one's hand is not a good idea in the poker game with BW. However, you do have a point. During my short time as editor of Nabo News, I was severely castigated for publishing an edited version of council minutes, which I felt, using editorial freedom, I was able to do. I don't think it would harm Nabo council to be a little more open in what it does. Publishing edited versions of the minutes on its website would be a good idea, that could benefit recruitment.

 

Maybe council should consider this, Sue?

 

Tone

 

Definitely. I think that would be a really good idea, and maybe a few back issues of NABO news so that people can see what else they're buying into.

[canaldrifter]

Has it? Like what?

 

For an outsider point of view I see nothing since 1995.

 

You'll probably take this the wrong way, but your website sucks at getting your message out. That's not an opinion, it's a fact, and I think it's something you really need to address. I know nothing about NABO apart from what I read here (both sides) and your website. And that adds up to hardly anything.

 

..... as you've already stated. Are you an IT wizard? Care to volunteer to improve the site or are you just going to keep on criticising the efforts of others?

 

Tone

[deletedaccount]

..... as you've already stated. Are you an IT wizard? Care to volunteer to improve the site or are you just going to keep on criticising the efforts of others?

 

Tone

 

you realise you've just done nothing but get all defensive here.

 

Yes, I make websites (more accurately distributed web applications) for a living. No, I'm not going to volunteer to help out an organisation I know nothing about. See the catch 22 here?

[canaldrifter]

Why should we?

 

I do not see NABO making any useful contribution, merely serving their own interests and sneering at anyone who criticises or doesn't fit their definition of a 'real boater'.

 

Then join up and change it. This can go round and round in circles forever if you like......

 

Tone

[deletedaccount]

The message is "make more information available about what it is you do and have done and maybe people would want to join up". Which you've already hinted you think is a good idea.

[carlt]

..... as you've already stated. Are you an IT wizard? Care to volunteer to improve the site or are you just going to keep on criticising the efforts of others?

 

Its like going into Comet, to buy a new washing machine, and being told.

 

"I'm sorry Sir, but they're all broken. You can buy one but you'll have to pay us and then fix them all, for us."

 

Then join up and change it. This can go round and round in circles forever if you like......

That is just the worst recruitment slogan ever and, until they make it more attractive, they will remain a tiny, impotent club.

[deletedaccount]

Mind boggling

 

"join us"

what do you do?

 

"join us and we'll tell you"

ffs.

[Neil TNC]

I do not know where you got that idea from, may I suggest that you go back to your source on Charitable Law and check that statement. What you may be confusing is the difference between the status of the Trustees and the Membership.

 

Many, if not most, Charities exist primarily for the benefit of it's members, for example virtually every Voluntary Youth Club and Community Association in England and Wales is either a Registered Charity, or of Charitable Status, and under the Charity Commissioners "Educational Services" critera the constuitution has to identify the Educational benifits to the membership in order to qualify.

 

I got that idea being an IWA trustee for 4 years and Neil Edwards banging that idea into our heads. Certainly under the present IWA constitution it cannot give benefits in kind to its membership (as was being mentioned), only educational benefits to all, whether the membership or not. The examples you give are for "educational benefits". Giving free insurance, craft licencing and discounts to members could not be called an "educational benefit".

[carlt]

Mind boggling

 

"join us"

what do you do?

 

"join us and we'll tell you"

ffs.

No it's worse, it's:

 

"join us"

what do you do

 

"nothing, we're rubbish. Join us and fix us."

[canaldrifter]

you realise you've just done nothing but get all defensive here.

 

Yes, I make websites (more accurately distributed web applications) for a living. No, I'm not going to volunteer to help out an organisation I know nothing about. See the catch 22 here?

 

There is no catch 22.

 

From their website:

 

The National Association of Boat Owners is dedicated to promoting the interests of private boaters on Britain's canals, rivers and lakes, so that their voice can be heard when decisions are being made which might affect their boating. NABO will always challenge injustice where necessary at the highest level.

 

The Association does not cater for a broad spectrum of waterway interests, as so doing could prevent it from taking a strong stand on boating issues, e.g. unnecessary boat safety requirements, excessive licence and mooring fees, poor dredging, any loss of freedom to navigate or moor on waterways etc. It will advise on individual members' problems, as well as taking up local issues and matters of national concern. It is not a social club, a cruising club, or a canal society.

 

NABO was formed in 1991, by a group of boat owners who felt that none of the existing organisations adequately put forward their views to the waterway authorities. It is run by a Council elected at an Annual General Meeting each November, consisting of up to 12 volunteers, who meet in Birmingham every six weeks. There are no specific regional meetings or sub-committees, but each area of the country has a Regional Secretary on the Council, and there is a River Users Co-ordinator to look after the special interests of boat owners on rivers.

 

NABO depends almost entirely on members subscriptions for its income. In its short life, it has gained recognition from all the major navigational authorities, other waterway organisations, and government bodies. Its arguments are listened to with respect, and it is frequently consulted on important issues. Its members are kept in touch through the newsletter - NABO News, e-mail bulletins and the members' pages on this site. Any member is welcome to attend Council meetings, or phone, write to or email Council members with their views or concerns.

 

 

 

Well of course I'm defensive of Nabo..... in the face of some really unjust criticism. I have seen and do see what they do. I've been a part of it.

 

I haven't been active on Nabo council for some years due to health issues, mostly, but you do make one good point. They need a good PR rep who can publicise their achievements. It would also be sensible to make Nabo News available to non-members, not just members, on the website.

 

 

 

Tone

 

Its like going into Comet, to buy a new washing machine, and being told.

 

"I'm sorry Sir, but they're all broken. You can buy one but you'll have to pay us and then fix them all, for us."

 

 

That is just the worst recruitment slogan ever and, until they make it more attractive, they will remain a tiny, impotent club.

 

'They' are just boaters, with a passion for the waterways, who have made the effort to get off their back-sides and do something in the face of a lot of juvenile sneering from other boaters.

 

Tone

[David Schweizer]

NABO is a faulted organisation. We are all faulted human beings. But at least it tries. It does its best and has had considerable success in challenging and changing certain ill-conceived schemes by BW, and in representing poorly treated members.

 

Members who encourage council and thank them for the work they do, and there are plenty of them, do not post their comments here. Why should they?

 

When I was on council I was very aware that NABO council considered itself to be representing its membership on issues that the membership raised. It also felt that in general it was doing its work for the benefit of all boaters, whether members or not.

 

Criticism such as we read here, from those unable or unprepared to make a useful contribution themselves, was and is always very hard to take, considering that all council members give up their free time, unpaid, when they'd rather be boating, to try to keep a degree of sanity in our waterways management. It is true that in the past council has unfortunately been dominated by one particular person. The present council is of far better stock.

 

When folks leave NABO, there is an opportunity to state their reasons for doing so. In my years on council, the main reason by far was 'giving up boating'. That is of the deepest concern. I predict that it will increase greatly in the next few years. It might pay those who want to try to stick it out in these hard times to support NABO in standing up for boaters' interests.

 

Tone

 

Red Rag to a Bull Tony. I did precisely that and got no where. Our Local Boat club used to encourage members to become full NABO members and had some sort of corporate membeship themselves. I was appointed to liase between NABO and the club, and sought to set up a channel of comminication between the Regional Representative and myself. We had one meeting and then nothing, and despite several attempts on my part, there was no further communication. The Regional Representative ignored my emails, and texts, and failed to attend any club meetings despite several requests, but was alweays present at the Council meetings.

 

About the same time my wife and I put our names forward as willing to volunteer on behalf of NABO at festivals, Boat rallies etc. I have had some experience of this type of work as I had been the Assistant Exhibition Manager for my Professional Association for several years, and looked forward to helping the Association inn this cap[acity.

 

We received no requests to assist until very late in the day, we were asked to help set up and staff the NABO stand at the Crick Show, we re-organised our schedules and agreed. we turned upand eventually managed to erect the pile of stuff which had been left on the ground into a presentable display. We engasged with a lot of people, handing out numerous leaflets etc, and managed to recruit quite a few new members. At the end of the day we returned to our boat at Stockton and then back home the following day.

 

I half expected to recieve an email after the show thanking us for our contribution and perhaps asking us to commit ourselves to further publicity events - Nothing. And to this day I have never heard from anyone even acknowledging our efforts. This is not the way to motivate volunteers and to make them feel valued, we simply filled a hole which someone else had vacated at short notice and that was that. Is that the way to encourage members to get involved? Not in my book.

[canaldrifter]

Red Rag to a Bull Tony. I did precisely that and got no where. Our Local Boat club used to encourage members to become full NABO members and had some sort of corporate membeship themselves. I was appointed to liase between NABO and the club, and sought to set up a channel of comminication between the Regional Representative and myself. We had one meeting and then nothing, and despite several attempts on my part, there was no further communication. The Regional Representative ignored my emails, and texts, and failed to attend any club meetings despite several requests, but was alweays present at the Council meetings.

 

About the same time my wife and I put our names forward as willing to volunteer on behalf of NABO at festivals, Boat rallies etc. I have had some experience of this type of work as I had been the Assistant Exhibition Manager for my Professional Association for several years, and looked forward to helping the Association inn this cap[acity.

 

We received no requests to assist until very late in the day, we were asked to help set up and staff the NABO stand at the Crick Show, we re-organised our schedules and agreed. we turned upand eventually managed to erect the pile of stuff which had been left on the ground into a presentable display. We engasged with a lot of people, handing out numerous leaflets etc, and managed to recruit quite a few new members. At the end of the day we returned to our boat at Stockton and then back home the following day.

 

I half expected to recieve an email after the show thanking us for our contribution and perhaps asking us to commit ourselves to further publicity events - Nothing. And to this day I have never heard from anyone even acknowledging our efforts. This is not the way to motivate volunteers and to make them feel valued, we simply filled a hole which someone else had vacated at short notice and that was that. Is that the way to encourage members to get involved? Not in my book.

 

How many years ago was this?

 

Tone

[carlt]

 

'They' are just boaters, with a passion for the waterways, who have made the effort to get off their back-sides and do something in the face of a lot of juvenile sneering from other boaters.

 

'They' present no evidence of being qualified to represent the interests of all boaters and as I've said, you have no idea of the contribution people who choose not to join your little club make, to the waterways and boating.

 

Dismissing legitimate criticism as 'juvenile sneering' merely reinforces that criticism and proves that there is no way NABO will ever change.

 

Why would the 'juvenile sneering' suddenly be seen as criticism that is worthy enough to prompt change, just because I've joined?....

 

...or perhaps it is necessary to buy an opinion.