Starter Battery Reccomendations

[alan_fincher]

I think our starter battery has finally succumbed. (Not unexpected, it was revived from considerable neglect well over two years ago, and has done remarkably well since).

 

Any recommendations in the Herts area, (Hemel Hempstead-ish), for a source of a replacement.

 

Local chandlery wants £88 for a Numax one, and I can get that without needing to drive or pay carriage, so that's a starting price to beat.

 

It's a standard "644" case size.

 

Thanks.

[GUMPY]

I think our starter battery has finally succumbed. (Not unexpected, it was revived from considerable neglect well over two years ago, and has done remarkably well since).

 

Any recommendations in the Herts area, (Hemel Hempstead-ish), for a source of a replacement.

 

Local chandlery wants £88 for a Numax one, and I can get that without needing to drive or pay carriage, so that's a starting price to beat.

 

It's a standard "644" case size.

 

http://www.shieldbatteries.co.uk

They are in Bishops Stortford But do occasionally deliver

 

as always

[Chris-B]

You can always try

DENKA

 

Chris

[steelaway]

I think our starter battery has finally succumbed. (Not unexpected, it was revived from considerable neglect well over two years ago, and has done remarkably well since).

 

Any recommendations in the Herts area, (Hemel Hempstead-ish), for a source of a replacement.

 

Local chandlery wants £88 for a Numax one, and I can get that without needing to drive or pay carriage, so that's a starting price to beat.

 

It's a standard "644" case size.

 

Thanks.

 

 

Hi

 

I think I would always choose Varta, considering my boat starter battery has been there for 6 years without trouble.

My BMW car has had the same one from new in 2002, In fact I've never seen it yet, I think its in the boot?

My BMW motorbike has had the same battery since new in 2004.

Am I happy with Varta - too right

 

Alex

[churchward]

I think our starter battery has finally succumbed. (Not unexpected, it was revived from considerable neglect well over two years ago, and has done remarkably well since).

 

Any recommendations in the Herts area, (Hemel Hempstead-ish), for a source of a replacement.

 

Local chandlery wants £88 for a Numax one, and I can get that without needing to drive or pay carriage, so that's a starting price to beat.

 

It's a standard "644" case size.

 

Thanks.

When I bought a starter a couple of years ago I bought one of these

 

http://www.tayna.co.uk/017-Numax-Car-Battery-P978.html

 

It's the same footprint size as a std 110A but not quite as high. I have had no problems with it and still going strong.

[Sunset Rising]

Do starter batteries need to be a different type ( not make ) to leisure batteries ?

[Chris Pink]

 

It's a standard "644" case size.

 

Thanks.

 

Mine was £58 for a Varta 644 from a battery place in Bristol so they are about.

[alan_fincher]

When I bought a starter a couple of years ago I bought one of these

 

http://www.tayna.co.uk/017-Numax-Car-Battery-P978.html

 

It's the same footprint size as a std 110A but not quite as high. I have had no problems with it and still going strong.

Curious!

 

That appears as a car battery, and has this spec...

 

Premium Car Battery

Voltage - 12V

Capacity - 88Ah

CCA(SAE) - 750A

 

Dimensions(mm)

354 x 175 x 190

 

3 years guarantee

Price: £59.99

 

whereas the 644 Commercial offering from Numax comes up as...

 

Premium Commercial Battery

Voltage - 12V

Capacity - 94Ah

CCA(SAE) - 620A

 

Dimensions(mm)

346 x 175 x 232

 

2 years guarantee

Price: £74.98

 

So one year less warranty, less cold cranking amps, and £15 more for the commercial item over the car one, with only marginally less Amp hours capacity.

 

I don't know the full details of different batteries, but there seems to me to be something here I'm missing, and I'm tempted by the one you suggest.

 

Anyone see any reason why not suitable for starting a BMC 1800 ?

 

(One doubt I have is whether I can actually accommodate a battery shown as 8mm longer - my compartments were made to fit the 644 size...)

Edited November 18, 2010 by alan_fincher

[jelunga]

Do starter batteries need to be a different type ( not make ) to leisure batteries ?

Need? Aught to be is the right answer.

 

Leisure batteries should be designed for a moderate discharge rate over a long period to as low a state of charge percentage as possible.

engine starter batteries should be designed for a high discharge current over a short period, just to start the engine, giving good performanace over a wide range of temperatures. The terms "cold cranking" are applied to car batteries to show that even at very low temperatures, the battery is capable of producing enough current to start the engine.

 

Leisure batteries are capable of starting an engine, but frequent use would significantly shorten the batteries life. I would say emergency use only.

 

Starter batteries are capable of being put to "leisure" use, but deep discharges will significantly shorten their lives.

 

So Horses for Courses is the best motto, in my humble opinion.

 

Keith

[churchward]

Curious!

 

That appears as a car battery, and has this spec...

 

 

 

whereas the 644 Commercial offering from Numax comes up as...

 

 

 

So one year less warranty, less cold cranking amps, and £15 more for the commercial item over the car one, with only marginally less Amp hours capacity.

 

I don't know the full details of different batteries, but there seems to me to be something here I'm missing, and I'm tempted by the one you suggest.

 

Anyone see any reason why not suitable for starting a BMC 1800 ?

 

(One doubt I have is whether I can actually accommodate a battery shown as 8mm longer - my compartments were made to fit the 644 size...)

As I say it works on our engine (beta 38) and is specified for diesel cars/light trucks/vans.

[steelaway]

Need? Aught to be is the right answer.

 

Leisure batteries should be designed for a moderate discharge rate over a long period to as low a state of charge percentage as possible.

engine starter batteries should be designed for a high discharge current over a short period, just to start the engine, giving good performanace over a wide range of temperatures. The terms "cold cranking" are applied to car batteries to show that even at very low temperatures, the battery is capable of producing enough current to start the engine.

 

Leisure batteries are capable of starting an engine, but frequent use would significantly shorten the batteries life. I would say emergency use only.

 

Starter batteries are capable of being put to "leisure" use, but deep discharges will significantly shorten their lives.

 

So Horses for Courses is the best motto, in my humble opinion.

 

Keith

 

 

 

Just how many cheap truck battery's are out there with a cheap sticker on them saying 'Leisure Battery'?

They might just outlast the warrantee, but even then, if not, you are going to have trouble convincing the supplier you have not abused them.

Or am I just being cynical?

 

 

Alex

[nb Innisfree]

Just how many cheap truck battery's are out there with a cheap sticker on them saying 'Leisure Battery'?

They might just outlast the warrantee, but even then, if not, you are going to have trouble convincing the supplier you have not abused them.

Or am I just being cynical?

 

 

Alex

 

YES!

 

Seriously though it all depends how cheap they are.

[Sunset Rising]

Need? Aught to be is the right answer.

 

Leisure batteries should be designed for a moderate discharge rate over a long period to as low a state of charge percentage as possible.

engine starter batteries should be designed for a high discharge current over a short period, just to start the engine, giving good performanace over a wide range of temperatures. The terms "cold cranking" are applied to car batteries to show that even at very low temperatures, the battery is capable of producing enough current to start the engine.

 

Leisure batteries are capable of starting an engine, but frequent use would significantly shorten the batteries life. I would say emergency use only.

 

Starter batteries are capable of being put to "leisure" use, but deep discharges will significantly shorten their lives.

 

So Horses for Courses is the best motto, in my humble opinion.

 

Keith

 

Thank you. that explains it nicely.

( 12 volt electrics are not my forte but I am determined to learn all I can, if only to keep up with you lot. )

 

Thank you. that explains it nicely.

( 12 volt electrics are not my forte but I am determined to learn all I can, if only to keep up with you lot. )

Actually, thinking about it..... probably a numpty question but....

If starter batteries can be designed for low cranking temps would it not be equally desireable for leisure batteries to retain there ampage at low temps ? after all they are kept in the same cold engine ole.

 

<edit> sorry for the double quote. I thought this would come out as a seperate post

Edited November 18, 2010 by Sunset Rising

[David Schweizer]

Hi Alan,

 

I just went to the local ATS Depot with the battery dimensions and bought a standard Exide lorry battery for £41.13 that was in 2005.

 

From recollection it was either a model number 644 or 643, apparently they are an industry standard, both batteries being identical except for the terminal layout.

Edited November 18, 2010 by David Schweizer

[alan_fincher]

You can always try

DENKA

 

Surprisingly expensive, unfortunately, even before carriage.

 

Mine was £58 for a Varta 644 from a battery place in Bristol so they are about.

I think you must consider that pretty damn good, if it included VAT - I can't find close to that locally.

 

As I say it works on our engine (beta 38) and is specified for diesel cars/light trucks/vans.

Well, it's a thought - I can't see the logic as to why the "commercial" one is more for a largely lower spec - seems bonkers!

 

I just went to the local ATS Depot with the battery dimensions and bought a standard Exide lorry battery for £41.13 that was in 2005.

I think they are an item that has risen massively in 5 years. I paid £58 in a chandlery in that year, I think, but same chandlery is now £88.

 

From recollection it was either a model number 644 or 643, apparently they are an industry standard, both batteries being identical except for the terminal layout.

Yep, and a local supplier has told me that a 664 is the same physical size, but with a higher capacity.

 

 

In practice I have received an offer to bring down a Numax one from a source that undercuts my local chandlery by quite a bit. Given that about £10 carriage seems normal most places, I'll probably go for that, and not spend a lot more than the alternatives.

 

Thanks for all the ideas, folks.

[smileypete]

Well, it's a thought - I can't see the logic as to why the "commercial" one is more for a largely lower spec - seems bonkers!

 

Commercial batts get hard use/abuse, cars don't have amp hungry tail lifts and stuff running for hours with the engine off.

 

So I'd expect to see thicker plates and relatively lower CCA for a commercial one. Have a look and compare your 644 batt to a car batt if you like.

 

cheers,

Pete.

[charles123]

Surprisingly expensive, unfortunately, even before carriage.

 

 

I think you must consider that pretty damn good, if it included VAT - I can't find close to that locally.

 

 

Well, it's a thought - I can't see the logic as to why the "commercial" one is more for a largely lower spec - seems bonkers!

 

 

I think they are an item that has risen massively in 5 years. I paid £58 in a chandlery in that year, I think, but same chandlery is now £88.

 

 

Yep, and a local supplier has told me that a 664 is the same physical size, but with a higher capacity.

 

 

In practice I have received an offer to bring down a Numax one from a source that undercuts my local chandlery by quite a bit. Given that about £10 carriage seems normal most places, I'll probably go for that, and not spend a lot more than the alternatives.

 

Thanks for all the ideas, folks.

 

Alan

 

You need to get a life instead of analysing everything to death, you need a battery just buy one

 

Charles

[John R]

In general smileypete is correct in what he says about the 644,ie thicker plates etc.

 

At the risk of boring people.

 

Starter batteries and leisure batteries are very similar in construction except that plates in leisure will be slightly thicker but also the plate separators will be lined with glass fibre mat. This is to reduce the possibility of plates buckling and active material falling of in the higher cycle regime typically seen in liesure appliactions.

 

Starter applications demand high current and so are built with the thinest plates possible as high current demand only really discharges the plate surfaces.

 

Both types will do both appliactions but in both cases life will suffer if wrongly applied.

 

However if batteries are abused by overcharging, over discharging and overheating they will fail early and you are best making do with cheap starter batteries ( an expensive overheated battery will fail due to internal corrosion just as quick as a cheap one will). Overcharging and overdischarging will cause capacity rundown, overheating is the most common cause of sudden catastrophic failure.

 

In general terms battery capacity is directly proportional to the battery weight ie the amount of lead in contains. Its ability to withstand cycling and deep discharge is proportional to the thickness of the plates and the construction of the plates in terms of both lead alloys used and plate type ie flat plate - the most common or tubular plate - typically used for traction applications. Don't be fooled into thinking that size of the container is everything - you would be surprised how much empty space there is is some boxes, however this then gives more space for acid allowing longer topup intervals.

 

As with all things it is all a compromise between cost, capacity, cycling, size, maintenance, etc and to some degree you get what you pay for unless you buy outside the specialist trade (ie chandlers). You must however look after them if you want them to last any time but one of the most important things for starting is how easily the engine starts ie will it start first time or not which is why car starter batteries last a lot longer and are much smaller than they used to be before electronic ignition, alternators and fuel injection.

 

Maintenance free, sealed, gel etc - well that is another, more complicted story with many more compromises and I believe in keeping it simple when the application is simple ie on a boat. Also there are many old wives tails and cons about. Just keep 'em as charged as possible, topped up above the plates and as cool as possible and they will serve you well.

 

What do I have 644 stater battery and tubular plate monobloc service batteries but without contacts I have I would settle for a good leisure battery here.

[alan_fincher]

Alan

 

You need to get a life instead of analysing everything to death, you need a battery just buy one

 

Charles

Your view, and you are of course entitled to express it, (though you give the impression you have more to spend on your boating habit than I do, which may, in part, dictate our difference in approach....)

 

People have often reckoned there are good deals to be done on batteries, so I thought I'd ask.

 

It seems for a single battery it's not that big a deal, but as it's brought a generous offer to undercut my local chandlers by about £8, with some freebies thrown in, I'm unrepentant about asking.

 

I didn't used to mind handing money to the local man for convenience in some cases, but they have become so uncompetitive on some things, (diesel being an obvious "staple" that I consider they are out of line on), that I feel that "encouraging them", is not really in the interest of local boaters, if there's an easy alternative.

[jelunga]

Thank you. that explains it nicely.

( 12 volt electrics are not my forte but I am determined to learn all I can, if only to keep up with you lot. )

 

 

Actually, thinking about it..... probably a numpty question but....

If starter batteries can be designed for low cranking temps would it not be equally desireable for leisure batteries to retain there ampage at low temps ? after all they are kept in the same cold engine ole.

 

<edit> sorry for the double quote. I thought this would come out as a seperate post

Not the same need for high current for a shorter period of time.

"Leisure" use is normally for a low current over a long period of time.

 

To demonstrate the difference take our buses. On a really cold morning, when you first try to start some, which have knsckered batteries, the battery is too flat to turn the engine over fast enough to start the bus. However, the act of trying to discharge the battery causes the internal temperatureto rise. The rise in temperature means the battery may have the ability to start the bus in about 5 minutes.

 

With a leisure battery you are taking smaller currents which mean that the lower temperatures do not have such a large effect on available current in the 5 - 10 amps level, for example. Starters call for 200 + amps instantly which with a cold and worn battery will not be available.

 

Keith