BSS Failure

[system 4-50]

My boat failed its BSS today. Its hospital silencer needs to be fully lagged in case somebody burrows into the corner where it lives, despite it being 2 feet away from anything else that might provide an excuse for travelling in that direction and being well out of the way in a corner of my cruiser stern, under the deck itself not the opening bit. (The pipework to and from Is fully lagged.)

OK, somebody could (and I am told at least once , did) get their fingers burnt.

But why pick on this?

After the engine hole board is lifted, there is a big hole. An inexpert person might not realise just how deep it is. A clear opportunity for a slip and a broken bone. A label saying "Deep Hole" perhaps? Rubber matting to cushion the fall?

Another label "Hot Bits Here"? "Beware Slippery Floor"?

The drive goes round and could snag trouser legs. "Naked People Only" perhaps?

And at the end there are bits that go round. Another label "Danger - moving machinery" perhaps? A chain guard to protect the fan/etc belts. Another label " Stop Engine Before Opening"?

Coming up again, "Mind Your Head" to avoid hitting the tiller arm?

I suggest that the BSS rules should be amended to allow the use of a single label "Access by Trained Personnel Only" or something similar as an allowed alternative to being to clever about the contents of the 'ole itself.

 

OK I concede that we need to have rules to protect inexpert boaters who must have access to the greaser & weed hatch from the rest of the gear down there and those rules have to be general and impact those of us who know what they are doing, But it still rankles...

[RLWP]

I'm not surprised it rankles. Ours is uninsulated and is much less than two feet under the counter, and it passed fine!

 

Richard

[alan_fincher]

You seem to me to have missed the point.

 

The freely downloadable BSS guide says, whether you think it's necessary or not, that an exhaust needs to be fully lagged.

 

If you present a boat for a BSS inspection that has an unlagged exhaust then the inspector is not doing his job properly if he passes it. Simple as that.

 

Some items have a degree of discretion built in, but something as clear as "Is exhaust lagged, yes or no ?" doesn't really seem open to any debate.

 

There is plenty in the BSS that some might think daft, and other stuff that probably should be there, but isn't, but like it or not, those are the rules you are supposed to adhere to.

 

It really is worth going through the guide sensibly yourself before arranging an inspection, as failures on points such as this are quite avoidable, if you actually take the time to study what is mandatory.

 

Ours is uninsulated and is much less than two feet under the counter, and it passed fine!

Well it shouldn't have!

[RLWP]

<snip>

Well it shouldn't have!

 

And it did. Looks like one of those "open to interpretation" things after all

 

Is the exhaust stub to the hull insulated on your boat Alan?

 

Richard

[Laurie Booth]

And it did. Looks like one of those "open to interpretation" things after all

 

Is the exhaust stub to the hull insulated on your boat Alan?

 

Richard

All the BSS rules/regs seem to be "open to interpretation", why should my boat pass one time on something then fail the next time.

[alan_fincher]

Is the exhaust stub to the hull insulated on your boat Alan?

Do you mean the bit of pipe that is inside the boat from the exhaust box up until where it passes out through the counter ?

 

If so the answer is "Yes".

 

I can see no "open to interpretation" in the guide. It clearly says the whole of a dry exhaust system, including the ends of the box, must be fully lagged or shielded, and specifically says

 

Lagging or shielding must provide complete coverage

 

The bizarre bit that makes the whole thing a nonsense is....

 

All parts of ‘dry’ exhaust systems must be lagged or shielded including

silencers, silencer ends and system joints/connections, except for

manifolds and flexible exhaust pipe sections which do not.

 

On mine the flexible section is the bit that would present by far the greatest hazard were it not lagged, so allowing it not to be when the cooler bits have to be is in my view bonkers.

 

As written a silencer that is neither lagged nor shielded on a dry exhaust system should always be a fail - I can't see how it can be read any other way.

 

All the BSS rules/regs seem to be "open to interpretation", why should my boat pass one time on something then fail the next time.

Either:

 

The regulations have changed between the two inspections - there was a very major revision in 2005 for example

 

or

 

One inspector took a different view to something than the other, (or simply the first one was not as thorough as he should have been).

 

There is no mystery - what they are examining is written in the BSS guide in fairly plain English. If you get a fail on something that you do not believe the guide indicates is a failure point, you are allowed to put your case to the BSS office for their consideration.

[RLWP]

This is all good fun, but neither Alan nor I have the necessary qualification to be a BSS inspector, so our opinions, however strongly held, are essentially worthless.

 

Where's Rob from the safety scheme, my boat needs failing

 

Richard

[alan_fincher]

This is all good fun, but neither Alan nor I have the necessary qualification to be a BSS inspector, so our opinions, however strongly held, are essentially worthless.

 

Where's Rob from the safety scheme, my boat needs failing

 

Richard

On the basis of what you have said, Rob might be able to oblige if you really want to change your "pass" into a "fail".

 

Personally I'd call it "open to a degree of interpretation" were I in your shoes, (and then keep quiet about it!)

[Guest User]

"Oh, you've got another stove up this end, I hadn't spotted that" ..... said my last BSS examiner as he was leaving my boat after having just issued the certificate

[Radiomariner]

"Oh, you've got another stove up this end, I hadn't spotted that" ..... said my last BSS examiner as he was leaving my boat after having just issued the certificate

 

Imagine the frustration for the examiner in following circumstances.

On first visit he went to look at what appeared to be a solid fuel stove. It turned out to be an electric shore powered imitation. One of the many failure points bieng

the wiring to this.

On second visit, on checking off the failure points the examiner came to this item. The owner declared that he had removed the stove. Item ticked off. As the examiner sat down to fill in the certificate he became aware of warmth radiating from, would you believe, a real woodburning stove! Only a week had lapsed since the first exam.

 

About exhaust lagging as an examiner I stick by the rules. However there was one instance concerning a very large hospital silencer that was not fully lagged. The owner complained that it did not get very hot. I phoned BSS for instruction and was advised that as it was not in the engine space and was suitably located out of harms way, to use my own discretion. I passed it. This however highlights how some examiners may pass an item that another would not. Under similar circumstances I would again seek advice. Other examiners may thereafter use their own discretion without consultation in circumstances that could be slightly different.

 

Regarding flexible exhaust sections. Lagging these would reduce their flexibility, thereby increasing the likleyhood of failure. It would also conceal the area of the system most likely to fail.

[ChrisPy]

I see no qualification from the OP about the degree of lagging provided on the silencer. It might be helpful to understand if it was not lagged at all, or if it was just that certain difficult-to-reach bits were exposed.

 

I have prepared a checklist of all the BSS requirements, which I can use as a self-check. About 60% of the items are not applicable for the average narrowboat. Is such a list already available from BSS? I couldn't find it.

[system 4-50]

...It really is worth going through the guide sensibly yourself before arranging an inspection, as failures on points such as this are quite avoidable, if you actually take the time to study what is mandatory.

 

 

You are quite right.

 

The silly part is that I did buy the book, and I did go through it!

Unfortunately I had the idea in the back of my mind that anything that appertained to the boat as initially built must be ok as the boat builder would have got it right. I didn't bother to look at those items.

However for a sailaway the builder is not specifically building to the BSS specification as it (the boat) is clearly incomplete.

My builder did warn me that somethings might need to be done, for example, removing the tap handle on the fuel drain cock, but in the excitement of that final pre-launch chat there was far too much detail for me to remember it all, and I think it probably did include the possibility of needing to lag the silencer. I hate being old!

 

I can have no grumble with it being failed, that was my fault as the rules are clear. My grumble is with the rule itself and even there it is mostly irritation rather than scientific disagreement.

[alan_fincher]

Regarding flexible exhaust sections. Lagging these would reduce their flexibility, thereby increasing the likleyhood of failure. It would also conceal the area of the system most likely to fail.

If there was a problem with lagging a flexible part in the exhaust system, then from my reading of the guide it does not say they must not be lagged, only that they do not have to be.

 

Mine is lagged, and passed, and I can see nothing in the guide that suggests it should not have done.

 

Of course you raise another point. If even the solid bits of the system are clad in nice fresh lagging, it is largely impossible for anyone, (BSS examiner or otherwise) to spot an imminent failure of the system.

[blackrose]

My boat failed its BSS today. Its hospital silencer needs to be fully lagged in case somebody burrows into the corner where it lives, despite it being 2 feet away from anything else that might provide an excuse for travelling in that direction and being well out of the way in a corner of my cruiser stern, under the deck itself not the opening bit. (The pipework to and from Is fully lagged.)

OK, somebody could (and I am told at least once , did) get their fingers burnt.

But why pick on this?

After the engine hole board is lifted, there is a big hole. An inexpert person might not realise just how deep it is. A clear opportunity for a slip and a broken bone. A label saying "Deep Hole" perhaps? Rubber matting to cushion the fall?

Another label "Hot Bits Here"? "Beware Slippery Floor"?

The drive goes round and could snag trouser legs. "Naked People Only" perhaps?

And at the end there are bits that go round. Another label "Danger - moving machinery" perhaps? A chain guard to protect the fan/etc belts. Another label " Stop Engine Before Opening"?

Coming up again, "Mind Your Head" to avoid hitting the tiller arm?

I suggest that the BSS rules should be amended to allow the use of a single label "Access by Trained Personnel Only" or something similar as an allowed alternative to being to clever about the contents of the 'ole itself.

 

OK I concede that we need to have rules to protect inexpert boaters who must have access to the greaser & weed hatch from the rest of the gear down there and those rules have to be general and impact those of us who know what they are doing, But it still rankles...

I have to say that I don't really understand the point of this post?

 

How long does it take to lag an exhaust? Ok, you need to take a trip to the chandlers (or somewhere else that supplies glass rope/webbing), and then the job would take about 10 minutes.

 

As others have said, the BSS regs are all in the public domain, even if some aspects are rather ambiguous.

 

If on the other hand, you're unhappy about having to pay extra for a re-test, then I guess you should have employed the services of an inspector who doesn't charge for re-tests (they do exist).

Edited October 23, 2010 by blackrose

[ChrisPy]

However for a sailaway the builder is not specifically building to the BSS specification as it (the boat) is clearly incomplete.

all work done by your builder on your sailaway should comply with the relevant ISO standards and you should have a declaration of conformity from him to confirm this.

I am not aware that there are any BSS requirements that are not required for RCD compliance.

[MoominPapa]

The expansion box in my engineroom is not lagged and has always passed. It's a cylinder maybe 25cm diameter and about a metre long, suspended just below the roof on the centre line of the boat. It's protected from accidental contact by a screen made if inch pitch weldmesh wrapped around underneath, but the ends aren't protected at all and the screen doesn't stop deliberate rather than accidental contact.

 

I'm actually quite happy with this. It doesn't get very hot, the exhaust stream has passed through a water-cooled manifold and a couple of metres of (lagged) pipe by the time it gets to the box. At low power it's touchable and at high power it's uncomfortable rather than instant burn hot. It's certainly cooler than the outside of a stove when it's working hard.

 

Lagging it would be a difficult job and look horrible, if pushed I'd have to make the screen more finger proof, but even that would look bad.

 

It seems to me that this is a badly worded rule which is in general being interpreted well by examiners, the OP's excepted.

 

MP.

[Semitrad]

 

I have prepared a checklist of all the BSS requirements, which I can use as a self-check. About 60% of the items are not applicable for the average narrowboat. Is such a list already available from BSS? I couldn't find it.

 

Any chance of a copy please? It would be great if an examiners' tick list could be made available to the rest of us, surely they are not secret.

[Timleech]

 

 

How long does it take to lag an exhaust? Ok, you need to take a trip to the chandlers (or somewhere else that supplies glass rope/webbing), and then the job would take about 10 minutes.

 

 

 

OK, I'll come with my stopwatch and time you doing it

 

The BSS was designed to be examined against a checklist by a trained examiner with no need for any discretion, much like a car MOT, replacing the earlier Certificate of Compliance which needed a professional surveyor who was allowed some 'professional discretion'. Of course, just like a car MOT, in the real world there is some discretion/common sense applied in borderline cases so not every examiner will pass and fail exactly the same things.

 

Tim

[ChrisPy]

Any chance of a copy please? It would be great if an examiners' tick list could be made available to the rest of us, surely they are not secret.

just compile it by copy/paste from the guide.

only takes an hour or so, but you need to omit the bits that don't apply in your case.

my version has already omitted the bits that don't apply to me, I would be hesitant to pass it on because it will not be the same for all boats.

 

it's not secret.

[Radiomariner]

If there was a problem with lagging a flexible part in the exhaust system, then from my reading of the guide it does not say they must not be lagged, only that they do not have to be.

 

Mine is lagged, and passed, and I can see nothing in the guide that suggests it should not have done.

 

Of course you raise another point. If even the solid bits of the system are clad in nice fresh lagging, it is largely impossible for anyone, (BSS examiner or otherwise) to spot an imminent failure of the system.

 

Sorry, you seem to have misunderstood me. The BSS does not insist that flexible sections should not be lagged, but allows the owner the option of leaving them uncovered.probably for the reasons I have given. This answers the second part of your post

 

 

all work done by your builder on your sailaway should comply with the relevant ISO standards and you should have a declaration of conformity from him to confirm this.

I am not aware that there are any BSS requirements that are not required for RCD compliance.

One would think so but there have been a lot of problems recently with supposidly RCD compliant boats not meeting BSS requirements when first examined by BSS. This is currently being addressed.

[bag 'o' bones]

I can understood the reasoning behing lagging the exhaust and manifolds on an engine that is installed in a engine room - folk walking past and using the exhaust stack as a hand rail for example but in an engine bay the practice doesn't seem to serve any useful purpose. Lets face it you don't have to lag the exhaust manifold of a car for it MOT!

 

Of course I forgot its the rules...we love silly rules in this country.

[soldthehouse]

I can understood the reasoning behing lagging the exhaust and manifolds on an engine that is installed in a engine room - folk walking past and using the exhaust stack as a hand rail for example but in an engine bay the practice doesn't seem to serve any useful purpose. Lets face it you don't have to lag the exhaust manifold of a car for it MOT!

 

Of course I forgot its the rules...we love silly rules in this country.

Rule no1 ; ignore all rules

Rule no2 ; dont get caught

Rule no3 ; deny everything

= politics by politicians [they make the rules]

 

And so we start again

 

Rule no1 ;................

[Bimbly1]

Shows how difficult it is to have rules sensibly and consistently applied when more than one person is doing the applying. My hospital silencer sits quietly in the engine room under the counter, on the port swim. When the engine has been running for several hours, a hand can be held against the silencer with no discomfort, (handy for drying rags on but that's a fire risk). Therefore being out of the way and not red hot, it is not a hazard. This was the rationale applied when Bimble passed it's BSS earlier this year.

[FadeToScarlet]

My boat failed its BSS today. Its hospital silencer needs to be fully lagged in case somebody burrows into the corner where it lives, despite it being 2 feet away from anything else that might provide an excuse for travelling in that direction and being well out of the way in a corner of my cruiser stern, under the deck itself not the opening bit. (The pipework to and from Is fully lagged.)

 

Couldn't you fit a grille in front of the silencer, so that it's shielded and can't be accidentally touched? Would that be a pass, as it shields the silencer?

[ChrisPy]

Couldn't you fit a grille in front of the silencer, so that it's shielded and can't be accidentally touched? Would that be a pass, as it shields the silencer?

the Requirement asks:

 

Are exhaust system components effectively cooled, lagged or shielded?

 

 

............... Q.E.D.