Engine Headaches

[Peter Reed]

Hats off to you,working in adverse conditions and an trainee grease monkey as well.

You certainly appear to torque the torque and worque the worque.

[RLWP]

Yesterday was the worst job thus far perhaps - cleaning the sump. I finished by using washing up liquid and water being sure to degrease the edges where the gasket was. The result was one very clean sump but myself far from clean. While I was at it, I decided to take the cover off the oil pump and see what could be found. It was not good. Not good at all. A whole load of dirt and muck that had to be scraped out. The mesh I jabbed with a needle, scraped and soaked. All is now well.

I'm trying to see if I can get the piston rings cheaper online if possible. The grooves are now dead clean although I do have to smooth out some abrasions on the piston sides around the crown. For now I'll take it steady and when ready will need a piston ring compressor and a torque wrench.

 

<Richard puts on his broken record>

 

If your pump is full of dirt and muck, the oilways in the block will be full of dirt and muck. The pump will have pumped dirt and muck into the block. Your crankshaft will be full of dirt and muck. This dirt and muck will wreck your crankshaft and crankshaft bearings when you try to start up the engine. You need to take the crank out and clean out the oilways

 

Am I getting the message through?

 

Richard

[choogh]

<Richard puts on his broken record>

 

If your pump is full of dirt and muck, the oilways in the block will be full of dirt and muck. The pump will have pumped dirt and muck into the block. Your crankshaft will be full of dirt and muck. This dirt and muck will wreck your crankshaft and crankshaft bearings when you try to start up the engine. You need to take the crank out and clean out the oilways

 

Am I getting the message through?

 

Richard

 

You have the "some thing or other" of a Saint...

[sumajan]

Don't mean to give you more work or worry but, if you have removed the big-end bearings it may be worth checking the 'roundness' and taper of the journals with a micrometer or set of callipers. You may find that the journals are oval thus when you refit the shells you could be tightening the bearing caps on a high spot on the journal which will result in the bearing being slack at some point - or - if tightened up on a flat spot the bearing will be too tight when it gets to the apex and possibly seize or spin the shells.

 

To check for any taper in the journal,simply run the micrometer or callipers along the length of the journal from shoulder to shoulder

 

You will be allowed some tollerance in all your measurements which can be obtained from your Manual.

 

Am very impressed with your steep learning curve. Couple of pages ago ( or months) you sounded chuffed cos you'd identified the engine.

now listen to you - with phrases like 'bore glazing' 'piston crowns' and 'collets', being bandied about. Good on yeh mate.

 

 

P.S. At the same time you can clean out the oilways

Edited February 4, 2011 by sumajan

[FORTUNATA]

The thing about mucky oilways will have to be looked into. What I stated was there was dirt that had bypassed the gauze somehow so between the pump cover and the gauze. How? The filter gauze was intact and no breaks. Weird! Still, I understand the system must be clean and won't be rushing ahead till I know it is. I simply don't know if I have grit in places it shouldn't be. There has been muck floating around possibly for years yet I found bearing condition to be fine. That's why I'm not treating this so far as a "rebuild" because normally you rebuild engines in cases where tappets and shell bearings are caput. My cam lobes, bearings, oil seals, tappet shims thus far are fine. What I've been finding is over 30 years of dirt and a hell of a lot of carbon. Plus some cobbled up signs of tampering in the past where bearing caps have been put in the wrong place and so on.

For now, I'm hoping to focus on each single issue which for now is the piston rings and cylinders. State of engine cleanliness will have to be looked into before reassembly.

[FORTUNATA]

Funny though, isn't it? The oil pump has a cover and a wire gauze. The gauze functions to prevent access of dirt to the system by eliminationg particles from the sump. How did the dirt get through the gauze if the gauze was O.K.? Maybe the other way perhaps? Is there dirt in the block? It could well be the case. If so, I have to make sure that problem is dealt with whatever way is available. However, I did find the camshaft was free from any signs of pitting as were the bearings and there was a hell of a lot of muck around the cylinder head which was finally jet blasted clean. It was particularly bad around the mating faces of the head and block when the gasket was removed. I couldn't tell you how many folks have approached with the advice to "throw it in the scrapyard!", prompted by the appearance of the piston crowns when they first saw daylight. I must admit the first thing that came to my head when I saw it myself was "forget it!" It took two days to recover from the shock.

 

<Richard puts on his broken record>

 

If your pump is full of dirt and muck, the oilways in the block will be full of dirt and muck. The pump will have pumped dirt and muck into the block. Your crankshaft will be full of dirt and muck. This dirt and muck will wreck your crankshaft and crankshaft bearings when you try to start up the engine. You need to take the crank out and clean out the oilways

 

Am I getting the message through?

 

Richard

[Albion]

Funny though, isn't it? The oil pump has a cover and a wire gauze. The gauze functions to prevent access of dirt to the system by eliminationg particles from the sump. How did the dirt get through the gauze if the gauze was O.K.? Maybe the other way perhaps? Is there dirt in the block? It could well be the case. If so, I have to make sure that problem is dealt with whatever way is available. However, I did find the camshaft was free from any signs of pitting as were the bearings and there was a hell of a lot of muck around the cylinder head which was finally jet blasted clean. It was particularly bad around the mating faces of the head and block when the gasket was removed. I couldn't tell you how many folks have approached with the advice to "throw it in the scrapyard!", prompted by the appearance of the piston crowns when they first saw daylight. I must admit the first thing that came to my head when I saw it myself was "forget it!" It took two days to recover from the shock.

 

Because it doesn't go through in large lumps. It goes through in fine suspension and then deposits itself on the internals gradually over time and builds up slowly.....Think Great Barrier Reef built from microscopic organisms

That's why Richard has been banging on about cleaning oilways etc because if the engine has been neglected to the extent that you are describing for the pump, then it is certain that some of that fine dirt will be deposited elsewhere, where you can't see it, also in large amounts.

Roger

Edited February 4, 2011 by Albion

[FORTUNATA]

Sadly I didn't photocopy the torque settings of the manual a few years ago when I copied it. Now I have to find the missing info. I photocopied all the workshop stuff but not the clearances and the actual book was removed from library shelves. All this is now more crucial.

The funny thing is when I made the photocopies I was full time employed and now I'm unemployed. Thus, the reason I've gotten further is more time available.

 

Don't mean to give you more work or worry but, if you have removed the big-end bearings it may be worth checking the 'roundness' and taper of the journals with a micrometer or set of callipers. You may find that the journals are oval thus when you refit the shells you could be tightening the bearing caps on a high spot on the journal which will result in the bearing being slack at some point - or - if tightened up on a flat spot the bearing will be too tight when it gets to the apex and possibly seize or spin the shells.

 

To check for any taper in the journal,simply run the micrometer or callipers along the length of the journal from shoulder to shoulder

 

You will be allowed some tollerance in all your measurements which can be obtained from your Manual.

 

Am very impressed with your steep learning curve. Couple of pages ago ( or months) you sounded chuffed cos you'd identified the engine.

now listen to you - with phrases like 'bore glazing' 'piston crowns' and 'collets', being bandied about. Good on yeh mate.

 

 

P.S. At the same time you can clean out the oilways

 

What needs to be done will have to be done. He makes a good point and I'll be careful to heed the caution. Actually I was going to leave the pistons in the bores till someone persuaded me to take them out and now I'm really glad I did as the rings were useless. I had thought of just doing the crowns originally.

Of course, I also have to fix up the engine bay as well (where the engine sat). I have full access now so will have to fibreglass on top of some areas.

I'm trying to systematically eliminate each and every problem as they come at me. The sump may have been the worst bit so far as I was faced with over 30 years of sludge to be cleaned out. I found no real grit in that oil but it was very old stuff and maybe even toxic. There was some crusting so I used ascrubbing brush and diesel before soapy water was used.

 

 

Because it doesn't go through in large lumps. It goes through in fine suspension and then deposits itself on the internals gradually over time and builds up slowly.....Think Great Barrier Reef built from microscopic organisms

That's why Richard has been banging on about cleaning oilways etc because if the engine has been neglected to the extent that you are describing for the pump, then it is certain that some of that fine dirt will be deposited elsewhere, where you can't see it, also in large amounts.

Roger

[FORTUNATA]

I've been thinking much of this over and also doing some investigating on Google. There are problems. First of all if I go to town manually cleaning block oilways (on the basis they're clogged), then I'm going to need a sprocket puller tool and will have to refit both front and rear crankshaft flanges as well as gaskets and oil seals. Probably looking at 90 pounds. Not sure if the intermediate shaft will have to come out too.

I've been looking into any possibility of flushing agents to cean out oil ways but don't yet know much about the use of such agents. There was debris around the camshaft as well but no damage to the bearings or cam lobes. No pitting or anything. The big question is whether I can get at certain areas without going further into disassembly via gun brushes and chemicals.

 

 

 

Because it doesn't go through in large lumps. It goes through in fine suspension and then deposits itself on the internals gradually over time and builds up slowly.....Think Great Barrier Reef built from microscopic organisms

That's why Richard has been banging on about cleaning oilways etc because if the engine has been neglected to the extent that you are describing for the pump, then it is certain that some of that fine dirt will be deposited elsewhere, where you can't see it, also in large amounts.

Roger

[RLWP]

£90-£120 is about the figure I had in mind. It's easy to see this as a big expense, try comparing it to an unknown second-hand engine and installation - say £350-£500 or a reconditioned engine (much closer to what you will end up with from your work) at £750-£1000 or a brand new engine at several thousands.

 

I know that as you are out of work the costs of the parts seem a lot, in reality you are saving a fortune.

 

Richard

[FORTUNATA]

I can probably handle removing the crankshaft although it wouldn't be easy. I'd have to take off both the flywheel to get at the rear shaft flange and then I'd need a puller for the front sprocket to reach the front flange. Both flanges have gaskets and pressed oil seals. The puller tool is roughly 20 quid sold in Machine Mart. After that the crankshaft bearing caps need to be removed and that would then give me deeper access to the main engine block.

I definitely take your point about oilways and it's a good point I'm glad you made. There is definitely a lot of dirt in the system which seems to be particles of carbon and crumbled cylinder head gasket. You could actually see the muck floating around the cylinder head bolts to the side when the head was first taken off.

At any rate, to get access to the rear crankshaft flange the flywheel needs to be removed and I'm not sure why my manual doesn't include information on that job. I also would have to be very careful as I accidentally rounded off a crankshaft bearing cap nut mistaking it for the big end cap nut when I was removing the pistons.

£90-£120 is about the figure I had in mind. It's easy to see this as a big expense, try comparing it to an unknown second-hand engine and installation - say £350-£500 or a reconditioned engine (much closer to what you will end up with from your work) at £750-£1000 or a brand new engine at several thousands.

 

I know that as you are out of work the costs of the parts seem a lot, in reality you are saving a fortune.

 

Richard

[RLWP]

Before you buy the puller, have a go at doing the front sprocket. You may find that it isn't that tight on the crankshaft. BMC ones can be pulled off by hand

 

Richard

[FORTUNATA]

It's the flywheel that worries me more. I'm assuming as it's large I'd have to remove it in order to get at the rear oil flange and seal. Maybe it would be almost as tricky as the removal of the Enfield drive which I recall was a sod of a job at the time.

I'd pretty much expect all bearings to be in pretty good condition as well as the actual crankshaft. The block, however, would probably gush out black muck if it were pressure blasted as that's what happened to the head when it was done.

Sunday was so windy the only job I thought I could do was clean up the exhaust manifold. I used wire brushes and wire drills and then finally the dreaded coca cola which had a dramatic effect. I also found one or two tiny holes int he exhaust right where the hosing fixes on.

Any ideas on flywheel removal. I assume you have to be careful with the timing position?

 

Before you buy the puller, have a go at doing the front sprocket. You may find that it isn't that tight on the crankshaft. BMC ones can be pulled off by hand

 

Richard

[RLWP]

It's the flywheel that worries me more. I'm assuming as it's large I'd have to remove it in order to get at the rear oil flange and seal. Maybe it would be almost as tricky as the removal of the Enfield drive which I recall was a sod of a job at the time.

I'd pretty much expect all bearings to be in pretty good condition as well as the actual crankshaft. The block, however, would probably gush out black muck if it were pressure blasted as that's what happened to the head when it was done.

Sunday was so windy the only job I thought I could do was clean up the exhaust manifold. I used wire brushes and wire drills and then finally the dreaded coca cola which had a dramatic effect. I also found one or two tiny holes int he exhaust right where the hosing fixes on.

Any ideas on flywheel removal. I assume you have to be careful with the timing position?

 

The flywheel will be designed to only go back on in one position, by dowels, or perhaps an assymetric bolt pattern.

 

Taking it off is easy - take the bolts out, then keep turning and hitting the back of the flywheel with a soft faced mallet. Make sure it won't drop on anything important when it comes off - your foot for instance. It'll be heavy, but that's all

 

Richard

Edited February 8, 2011 by RLWP

[FORTUNATA]

I guess I'll remove the shaft then. I may be able to lift the block out of the boat and then clean it more diligently. I probably will need a puller tool but maybe I can shop around for something second hand. I'm quite confident I can do the job like clockwork so long as I take my time, tag everything in bags as I did with the head and so on. I'll take a good look at it and let you all know how the land lies.

 

 

 

The flywheel will be designed to only go back on in one position, by dowels, or perhaps an assymetric bolt pattern.

 

Taking it off is easy - take the bolts out, then keep turning and hitting the back of the flywheel with a soft faced mallet. Make sure it won't drop on anything important when it comes off - your foot for instance. It'll be heavy, but that's all

 

Richard

[RLWP]

I guess I'll remove the shaft then. I may be able to lift the block out of the boat and then clean it more diligently. I probably will need a puller tool but maybe I can shop around for something second hand. I'm quite confident I can do the job like clockwork so long as I take my time, tag everything in bags as I did with the head and so on. I'll take a good look at it and let you all know how the land lies.

 

I'd give taking the flywheel off a go before you start carrying the engine about. It's a lot of weight you can take off in one go, and it makes the engine quite a bit more manageable. Half a dozen bolts and a bit of hammering makes life a lot easier.

 

The tagging into bags trick is very useful for keeping things under control. Like it!

 

And a copper/hide faced hammer is very versatile - it could even replace the puller tool!

 

 

Richard

Edited February 8, 2011 by RLWP

[FORTUNATA]

I found that to be the key - absolutely crucial. It helps a lot when reassembling. When I took the pistons out I cleaned the crowns a bit to find the arrows as well as the vcasting marks on the con rod caps. Working slowly and calmly is best. Hopefully I can get the crankshaft out and will find it's in good nick but I'll be curious whether the block is dirty and contaminated. It probably is as the piston crowns were initially pretty messy.

Onwards and upwards.

 

I'd give taking the flywheel off a go before you start carrying the engine about. It's a lot of weight you can take off in one go, and it makes the engine quite a bit more manageable. Half a dozen bolts and a bit of hammering makes life a lot easier.

 

The tagging into bags trick is very useful for keeping things under control. Like it!

 

And a copper/hide faced hammer is very versatile - it could even replace the puller tool!

 

 

Richard

[NB Lola]

You do know that there is a book in this lot?

[FORTUNATA]

You're right. When I first raised this topic some years ago now other events took place that put it all on hold. Mainly my involvement in the care of an orphaned German Shepherd dog whose owner died. I decided to put the boat stuff on hold and take the dog under my wing. To this day myself and the dog are the best of mates,

and possibly I learned more about dog training than I have about engines. At any rate, once I got the old boat to the boatyard it started to become a bit easier as I no longer had to cycle out some miles to do any work.

I suppose it would make a great story if and when I ever get the engine up and running and, above all, the boat restored. Who knows? Also, I think the canine side of the story would make the most interesting reading.

 

 

You do know that there is a book in this lot?

 

The flywheel: Let me say loosening those bolts off was horrendous. You'd not believe the amount of force some of them took. I tried doses of WD 40, hitting the spanner at various points with a hammer and finally all out weighing down on the spanner. In such situations you have to watch the nut doesn't sheer. Finally I did get them all but I haven't yet removed the flywheel. I spent some time basically cleaning and scrubbing the block internally and externally and tried to locate some of the oilways. The ones I could get at were clear. What I did notice that was unusual is some apparent movement of a bearing as the crankshaft goes into reverse which you can see visually. It had me worried. At first I thought it was a crack but now it seems certain it has to be a shell bearing with a notch. The manual does say I think no 3 bearing cap has some sort of a flange for oil passage and is different. It does state bearing clearance is crucial at this bearing and if it exceeds the limit then a whole new set of bearings are required. Period. It's measured with a feeler guage as normal.

[NBMike]

The flywheel: Let me say loosening those bolts off was horrendous. You'd not believe the amount of force some of them took. I tried doses of WD 40, hitting the spanner at various points with a hammer and finally all out weighing down on the spanner. In such situations you have to watch the nut doesn't sheer. Finally I did get them all but I haven't yet removed the flywheel. I spent some time basically cleaning and scrubbing the block internally and externally and tried to locate some of the oilways. The ones I could get at were clear. What I did notice that was unusual is some apparent movement of a bearing as the crankshaft goes into reverse which you can see visually. It had me worried. At first I thought it was a crack but now it seems certain it has to be a shell bearing with a notch. The manual does say I think no 3 bearing cap has some sort of a flange for oil passage and is different. It does state bearing clearance is crucial at this bearing and if it exceeds the limit then a whole new set of bearings are required. Period. It's measured with a feeler guage as normal.

 

this is a cheapish tool for that job

 

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Draper-Expert-22322-12-Piece-Screwdriver/dp/B0001K9R8U/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=diy&qid=1297330308&sr=1-1

 

Mike

[RLWP]

 

this is a cheapish tool for that job

 

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Draper-Expert-22322-12-Piece-Screwdriver/dp/B0001K9R8U/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=diy&qid=1297330308&sr=1-1

 

Mike

 

I've been wondering about that comment by Fortunata. Personally, I'd be using a breaker bar:

 

 

It's the reference to spanners that worries me, not to sockets - which again is what I'd be using to avoid damaging the bolts

 

Richard

[Sir Nibble]

I've been wondering about that comment by Fortunata. Personally, I'd be using a breaker bar:

 

 

It's the reference to spanners that worries me, not to sockets - which again is what I'd be using to avoid damaging the bolts

 

Richard

Snap on breaker bar! You are a rich man Richard, not a banker by any chance?

[RLWP]

Snap on breaker bar! You are a rich man Richard, not a banker by any chance?

 

I am considerably richer than you, my friend* Link to breaker bar

 

Richard

 

*Only in experience of being me

[larkshall]

Good god, hasn't he got this engine going yet ??????

 

Flywheel removal can also be a pain, RENT A FLYWHEEL PULLER... You probably won't get it apart any other way. (You could of course heat flywheel with oxy/acetylene, and freeze end of crank with proprietary freezing spray)

[FORTUNATA]

There's very little doubt about it starting up because I now know what was wrong (glued piston rings). However, bear in mind the boat was left under trees for around 13 years and the engine was in a shocking state of neglect. There is also an entire Enfield Z drive to deal with in even worse condition. Then there's the engine bay. The boat is dated 1960's so some of the woodwork and fibreglass needs attention before stuff is reinstalled. I also have another boat to maintain as well so I really have quite a lot of work cut out.

 

Good god, hasn't he got this engine going yet ??????

 

Flywheel removal can also be a pain, RENT A FLYWHEEL PULLER... You probably won't get it apart any other way. (You could of course heat flywheel with oxy/acetylene, and freeze end of crank with proprietary freezing spray)