Stern Tube / Gearbox / Starter Confusion Part 3

[paulcatchpole]

Hi again!

 

I've made some progress this past weekend in taking the reduction gear apart a bit and doing some proper measuring.

 

First things first, the propshaft and gearbox coupling arrangement that Richard's kindly offered to do a bit of sorting for me...

 

With the current shaft, there's 40mm engagement into the gearbox coupling, on a 1.5" shaft (total 26.5" length) - is this enough, or is it imperative I buy a longer shaft to resolve this?

 

 

And also (there might be a bit of this, sorry...!) the taper is confusing me... I make the taper dimensions, 1.5" to 1.2" over 3.72" of taper - making it 1:12.4. Is this close enough to be 1:12, or is it the 'magic' Lister taper that's been mentioned? Those measurements were with vernier calipers, not just a tesco value tape-measure too...

 

I'm still looking for a prop at the moment, and following up the suggestions from my wanted ad, as well as other angles! It'd be good to know that I'm looking for a standard 1:12, meaning I can buy a longer shaft as above, if necessary...

 

I've measured the boat, and we can swing up to about 21" without too much problems, apart from removing some of the skeg strengthening web...

 

 

Moving on...

 

The reduction box is in a bit of a sorry state - a couple of pints of water came out when I split the case, and no oil... Safe to say, the bearings are somewhat beyond their best. Teeth aren't too bad though, so it's a case of fix what I've got, if I can find the bearings - suppliers anyone?

 

 

Main questions here are, what do I replace? The exploded diagrams I've got (one from the SR manual, and one from the SL manual - slightly different in each case) seem to show the bearings as conventional one-piece units that I understand, but in real life there appears to be roller bearing units on 'one half' and on the shaft that a given bearing supports, there's a brass (bronze?) bush which rotates on the shaft as well. The roller bearings as well as the surface of the brass bushes are properly pitted and horrible.

 

 

I can't get my head around the brass bushes rotating - surely that can't be right. Has something come apart here, or is this some weird arrangement I don't understand... Bearing in mind I'm a youngun' you know, rope oil seals and the like were before my time...

 

Moving on again...

 

I'm still trying to sort out the right starter for this SR3 - I think we've settled on it being a conventional marine version. Some confusing points for me are that it has/had a spacing flange on the starter mounting that adds 10mm distance:

 

 

Without that, the measurements are per this:

 

 

Note what looks like additional drilled holes as well, but the 'distance piece'/flange-thing is on the main proper holes, not the little additional ones.

 

Lucas list the LRS155 as being correct for the SR series (and some John Cave tractors, and a Massey), and I can buy one of those for about the £150 mark, new. But... Dimensions for that I've found via google don't seem a good match for the actual numbers measured from the engine!

 

I've also *heard* that a 2.25d Series landy starter might fit, which I think is an LRS139. The numbers for that (92mm dia, pinion 17-37.4) are a good match and it goes round the right way. To confuse me further, if you go round crossing enough part numbers, you get to the belief that later TDI disco starters will also fit, and fit Series landies too, even though they look quite different. That's annecdotally supported by some Landy forum posts.

 

Bearing in mind we're on a beer-budget-refloat plan at the moment, I could do without spending £150 outright on a new starter, and if I can pick up a landy one off ebay second hand for £35 then I'd be very happy.

 

So, open to the forum for ideas!

 

You've no idea just how much I appreciate the ability to put all this down in words and pictures and have the benefit of forum advice - you're all fantastic! Cheers again!

 

PC

[RLWP]

I'll own up. I started the doubts about the propshaft engagement. To me, 40mm of engagement on a 1.5" shaft is a bit mean, especially as the coupling can take a lot more than that. What do other people think?

 

Paul, if you can get to the bearings themselves the best source will be a local supplier. The bearings should have their size, type and rating marked on the outer race.

 

Richard

[paulcatchpole]

I'll own up. I started the doubts about the propshaft engagement. To me, 40mm of engagement on a 1.5" shaft is a bit mean, especially as the coupling can take a lot more than that. What do other people think?

 

Paul, if you can get to the bearings themselves the best source will be a local supplier. The bearings should have their size, type and rating marked on the outer race.

 

Richard

 

Definitely on the bearings - I agree, that's just what I've done in the past with 'odd' bits of kit. The oddness here is that I'm being confused by the pitted brass bush 'running surfaces' on the shaft (that also rotate), in combination with a relatively-conventional-looking roller bearing. Especially as there is no inner race on the roller bearings...

 

The diagram appears to just show normal bearings...

 

 

What do you reckon?

 

PC

 

Edited to add pic of bearings:

 

Edited April 26, 2010 by paulcatchpole

[RLWP]

Definitely on the bearings - I agree, that's just what I've done in the past with 'odd' bits of kit. The oddness here is that I'm being confused by the pitted brass bush 'running surfaces' on the shaft (that also rotate), in combination with a relatively-conventional-looking roller bearing. Especially as there is no inner race on the roller bearings...

 

The diagram appears to just show normal bearings...

 

 

What do you reckon?

 

PC

 

Edited to add pic of bearings:

 

What numbers are the brass bushes/bearings in that diagram? (the bushes that shouldn't be bushes because they are bearings). Are you talking about the brass bearing cage that holds the rollers that you can see in the picture?

 

Richard

 

From that picture it looks like you've left the inner race of one bearing (11) on the shaft and the outer race of the other (20) still in the casting.

Edited April 26, 2010 by RLWP

[paulcatchpole]

What numbers are the brass bushes/bearings in that diagram? (the bushes that shouldn't be bushes because they are bearings). Are you talking about the brass bearing cage that holds the rollers that you can see in the picture?

 

Richard

 

From that picture it looks like you've left the inner race of one bearing (11) on the shaft and the outer race of the other (20) still in the casting.

 

I thought that might be the case!

 

I'm talking about this pitted brass ring, here:

 

 

And this matching bearing... (the lower one!)

 

 

I guess it's actually supposed to be one part, numbered 11 in the diagram.

 

I suspect 22 and 20 also need replacing!

 

Mind you, the whole lot is in better nick than my Rangie overdrive was, that had no hardening left on any teeth, and no teeth left on the teeth as it were, in many places... Still drove okay, with earplugs...

 

Ta, PC...

[RLWP]

Upper picture is the inner race - hardened steel - of the lower bearing in the second picture. It's knackered, and may be "brass" coloured through overheating. The bearing has a riveted brass cage to stop all the little rollers from dropping onto the floor*

 

Richard

 

*like bicycle headstock bearings used to do when I was a kid

[MoominPapa]

I thought that might be the case!

 

I'm talking about this pitted brass ring, here:

 

 

And this matching bearing... (the lower one!)

 

 

I guess it's actually supposed to be one part, numbered 11 in the diagram.

 

 

I think Mr Lister intended that you remove the split pin and the big nut from the end of the shaft before removing the case.

 

MP.

[paulcatchpole]

Upper picture is the inner race - hardened steel - of the lower bearing in the second picture. It's knackered, and may be "brass" coloured through overheating. The bearing has a riveted brass cage to stop all the little rollers from dropping onto the floor*

 

Richard

 

*like bicycle headstock bearings used to do when I was a kid

 

Aye, I know what you mean about headset bearings...

 

Erm, is it supposed to have come apart like that then? I'd have expected the bearing to stay together as a unit?

 

It's remarkably brass coloured for something steel, as is the other one - but I'll take your word for it!

 

PC

[RLWP]

Aye, I know what you mean about headset bearings...

 

Erm, is it supposed to have come apart like that then? I'd have expected the bearing to stay together as a unit?

 

It's remarkably brass coloured for something steel, as is the other one - but I'll take your word for it!

 

PC

 

It depends...

 

If the bearing was meant to take any side load, it shouldn't come apart like that. But it looks like there is no shoulder in the inner race and so it could, and here actually has come apart. Bearings that float on a race like that are less common these days as you have to make other arrangements for end thrust and wear.

 

Richard

 

It seems to me that there has been a mechanical bodger working on this boat - like the plugged sterntube, the roll-pin in the shaft and the extra starter motor holes. I wonder if those inner races really are brass. Can you hunt down any other spoor in the gearbox from this mechanical mangler?

[BEngo]

I thought that might be the case!

 

I'm talking about this pitted brass ring, here:

 

{snip Piccies}

 

I suspect 22 and 20 also need replacing!

 

Mind you, the whole lot is in better nick than my Rangie overdrive was, that had no hardening left on any teeth, and no teeth left on the teeth as it were, in many places... Still drove okay, with earplugs...

 

Ta, PC...

 

The pitted thing in the top picture is I think (remains of) the inner race of the lower bearing in the bottom picture. Similarly somewhere there is an outer race for the upper bearing in the lower picture.

 

If you remove the nut from next to the pitted thjing then you may be able to pull the remains of that race off. If not split it with an angle grinder used very carefully ( a Dremel would be good). Then remove the remainder of the bearing. This may require judicious drifting from the far side or an internal puller. Do the same for teh other bearing. Take the whole lot as matching parts to a decent bearing stockist. They will be able to find you new ones. They are probably Imperial sizes so may need to be ordered. Specify that you would like good ones- not Chinese or Russian made, even if they have a good name. SKF are OK as are Nachi from Japan. Don't worry if the new ones come fitted with rubber or metal seals- these just flick out with a screwdriver and the bearings are the same inside once the seals are off.

 

Rinse the grease out of the new bearings with diesel or similar and then drain and dunk in gearbox oil before fitting.

 

Your gearteeth don't look too bad- clean em up gently with a wire brush and then allow them to run in again.

 

No doubt Snibble will know something about starter motors- I don't.

 

N

[WotEver]

Erm, is it supposed to have come apart like that then? I'd have expected the bearing to stay together as a unit?

As far as I understand the pictures, diagram and Richard's advice to date... the answers to the above are No... and Yes. In that order

 

Similarly somewhere there is an outer race for the upper bearing in the lower picture.

I believe you can see that in the lower hole of this piccy from the first post:

 

 

Tony

[RLWP]

This is always the danger with several problems in one thread. A problem gets really well resolved and the others get missed.

 

Anyone got any thoughts on the engagement of the shaft into the drive coupling?

 

 

A 1.5" shaft pushed only 40mm into the coupling seems a bit mean to me.

 

Richard

[paulcatchpole]

It depends...

 

If the bearing was meant to take any side load, it shouldn't come apart like that. But it looks like there is no shoulder in the inner race and so it could, and here actually has come apart. Bearings that float on a race like that are less common these days as you have to make other arrangements for end thrust and wear.

 

Richard

 

It seems to me that there has been a mechanical bodger working on this boat - like the plugged sterntube, the roll-pin in the shaft and the extra starter motor holes. I wonder if those inner races really are brass. Can you hunt down any other spoor in the gearbox from this mechanical mangler?

 

Righty, that's that about sorted then - I'll take it apart, extract the pieces and go bearing hunting... I'll set CreamCheese at them with the brasso, soon find out what they are!

 

No more entertaining signs yet of the previous maintenance wizard's work, but at least for once it's not actually me that's been causing all this chaos! Who knows how long these bodges have been in place - ex-hire from the early 70s, then somewhere else, then lived on by druggies and Secion-eighted. It's had a busy life... I just hope the engine hasn't seen too much attention!

 

As far as I understand the pictures, diagram and Richard's advice to date... the answers to the above are No... and Yes. In that order

 

Good stuff! Glad we all agree - I think I'm getting it now...

 

Your gearteeth don't look too bad- clean em up gently with a wire brush and then allow them to run in again.

 

Well, that's something at least! Ta for the other thoughts on the bearing too.

 

This is always the danger with several problems in one thread. A problem gets really well resolved and the others get missed.

 

Anyone got any thoughts on the engagement of the shaft into the drive coupling?

 

Fair point, sowwy Richard....

 

Bearings sorted, just shaft engagement, taper, prop and starter to get the crowd working on now...

 

PC

[OldGoldy]

I'm still trying to sort out the right starter for this SR3 - I think we've settled on it being a conventional marine version. Some confusing points for me are that it has/had a spacing flange on the starter mounting that adds 10mm distance:

 

......As does mine

 

Lucas list the LRS155 as being correct for the SR series (and some John Cave tractors, and a Massey), and I can buy one of those for about the £150 mark, new. ..........................I've also *heard* that a 2.25d Series landy starter might fit, which I think is an LRS139. The numbers for that (92mm dia, pinion 17-37.4) are a good match and it goes round the right way. To confuse me further, if you go round crossing enough part numbers, you get to the belief that later TDI disco starters will also fit, and fit Series landies too, even though they look quite different. That's annecdotally supported by some Landy forum posts.

 

Bearing in mind we're on a beer-budget-refloat plan at the moment, I could do without spending £150 outright on a new starter, and if I can pick up a landy one off ebay second hand for £35 then I'd be very happy.

 

Paul, I can't help with any of the gearbox queries, and can only confuse the issue on starters - my belief is the starter 'should' be a LRS555 (ACW), although apparently there are some SR3s out there with a reverse rotation (CW) and thus use the LRS155 (BMC, 4-108 etc). Baldock is your expert here and he would want a serial number for the SR3 - something that my engine does not have.

 

If you should find a Landy, Disco or tractor starter that does the job, would you post that info. on here, please, as I and no doubt others too, would prefer not to have to fork out for a brand new one (I have been quoted £300+ )

[paulcatchpole]

Paul, I can't help with any of the gearbox queries, and can only confuse the issue on starters - my belief is the starter 'should' be a LRS555 (ACW), although apparently there are some SR3s out there with a reverse rotation (CW) and thus use the LRS155 (BMC, 4-108 etc). Baldock is your expert here and he would want a serial number for the SR3 - something that my engine does not have.

 

If you should find a Landy, Disco or tractor starter that does the job, would you post that info. on here, please, as I and no doubt others too, would prefer not to have to fork out for a brand new one (I have been quoted £300+ )

 

Wait a minute, that's confused me even more!

 

I believed my engine is a standard marine one, in that it takes a L/H prop. That's L/H (anti clock) looking at the back of the boat from behind the prop.

 

So, once through the reduction box, which reverses the rotation, the engine is going clockwise viewed from the stern.

 

Therefore the starter needs to turn clockwise viewed from the bow, looking at the ring gear (or anticlock looking from the stern still).

 

So, next question - when a starter is clockwise or ACW, from where is that viewed?

 

I believed I needed a clockwise starter, as that's the way it'd have to turn looking through the hole to see the ring gear.

 

Am I completely wrong then?

 

No serial number but it's the original engine/gearbox combo, and given it was a fleet boat, I'm pretty sure it's marine in origin.

 

PC

 

Edited to add, a quick google suggests I may have been wrong all along here - starters are apparently rotational as viewed from the pinion end. So I *do* need a ACW starter, joy - there goes the landy idea.

Edited April 26, 2010 by paulcatchpole

[Tony Brooks]

Paul,

 

I am going back 40 years here and may be getting the BMC DCB reduction box mixed with with the Lister LH150 but I THINK ours had angular contact (self aligning) ball bearings on the output shaft to take the prop thrust. I think you need to talk to Baldock before you go too far with the bearings.

[casper ghost]

Hi. We got our HR2 starter from a firm near Shrewsbury, brand new for 200 quid. The spacer you show in your pic was needed on our HR2 and are hard to come by, really expensive, we had to buy a second hand one at 50 quid. We did consider making one but we had no time. If you're interested i'll get the info on the Shrewsbury firm.

[paulcatchpole]

Paul,

 

I am going back 40 years here and may be getting the BMC DCB reduction box mixed with with the Lister LH150 but I THINK ours had angular contact (self aligning) ball bearings on the output shaft to take the prop thrust. I think you need to talk to Baldock before you go too far with the bearings.

 

The ones in it don't look to be anything special - but admittedly I can't see the one behind the output gear yet... The exploded diagram doesn't suggest anything too strange, but presumably they'd be source-able whatever?

 

We've no external thrust block on either of our boats with this gearbox arrangement, so something internal must be taking the thrust.

 

Hi. We got our HR2 starter from a firm near Shrewsbury, brand new for 200 quid. The spacer you show in your pic was needed on our HR2 and are hard to come by, really expensive, we had to buy a second hand one at 50 quid. We did consider making one but we had no time. If you're interested i'll get the info on the Shrewsbury firm.

 

I think I can source an LRS555 for around the £200 mark at the moment, but if you can find the contact details anyway, then it'd be good to file them away just in case! Cheers Casper!

 

PC

[Timleech]

I don't think there's anything wrong with the way the gearbox came apart, rather a lot wrong with the contents though .

 

The thrust bearing is a ball race with a split inner, AIUI obsolete for years and expensive even before they were made obsolete. A good bearing supplier should be able to hunt one down for you.

An alternative worth looking into is to find a deep groove ball race with the same dimensions, and look up its thrust carrying capabilities. A bit of maths should tell you whether it would be up to the job, they often are though there won't be the same reserve capability as the original to cope with adverse conditions.

 

The set of bearings will eat up a fair chunk of beer fund, especially if you go for the proper thrust bearing.

 

Starter motor should be anticlock for the marine SR. If you can't find one locally to you, G E Middleton in Manchester apparently have new ones on the shelf but I've no idea of the price.

 

Tim

[paulcatchpole]

I don't think there's anything wrong with the way the gearbox came apart, rather a lot wrong with the contents though .

 

Well, that's something at least!

 

The thrust bearing is a ball race with a split inner, AIUI obsolete for years and expensive even before they were made obsolete. A good bearing supplier should be able to hunt one down for you.

An alternative worth looking into is to find a deep groove ball race with the same dimensions, and look up its thrust carrying capabilities. A bit of maths should tell you whether it would be up to the job, they often are though there won't be the same reserve capability as the original to cope with adverse conditions.

 

The set of bearings will eat up a fair chunk of beer fund, especially if you go for the proper thrust bearing.

 

Sorry, being thick here, do you mean that you know it was supposed to have a thrust bearing inside, or that's what one would be like if it needed one? Wossa deep groove ball race then, so I can go looking? It'd be nice to not exhaust the beer fund totally, so best effort is likely!

 

Starter motor should be anticlock for the marine SR. If you can't find one locally to you, G E Middleton in Manchester apparently have new ones on the shelf but I've no idea of the price.

 

I've just spoken to my friendly factor who reckon they can source one from QX, who list it as QS5144. Price was high but not horrific and I reckon I can bargain them down... Ta for the source - I've made a note of it just in case!

 

What're your thoughts on this 40mm engagement issue?

 

PC

[Timleech]

Well, that's something at least!

 

 

 

Sorry, being thick here, do you mean that you know it was supposed to have a thrust bearing inside, or that's what one would be like if it needed one? Wossa deep groove ball race then, so I can go looking? It'd be nice to not exhaust the beer fund totally, so best effort is likely!

 

 

 

 

What're your thoughts on this 40mm engagement issue?

 

PC

 

The thrust bearing is, so far as I can see, item 22 on the parts drawing. You'll have to remove the half-couplings to get at it. It's a fair bet, seeing the state of the rest, that it'll be shot.

A deep groove ball bearing is just an ordinary ball bearing but with, wait for it....... deep grooves!

The grooves are what the balls run in, being deeper than normal means they can carry more axial thrust.

 

The 40mm engagement isn't clever, it'll need to be sorted sooner or later if you want a reliable installation.

 

Tim

[paulcatchpole]

The thrust bearing is, so far as I can see, item 22 on the parts drawing. You'll have to remove the half-couplings to get at it. It's a fair bet, seeing the state of the rest, that it'll be shot.

A deep groove ball bearing is just an ordinary ball bearing but with, wait for it....... deep grooves!

The grooves are what the balls run in, being deeper than normal means they can carry more axial thrust.

 

The 40mm engagement isn't clever, it'll need to be sorted sooner or later if you want a reliable installation.

 

Tim

 

Cracking - I get it now! I admit to a quick bit of google education to try and learn what you were talking about!

 

I presume the halfshaft will come out once the nut is removed from its end? It looks to be plain rather than tapered?

 

On the 40mm issue, well, you'll have cheered Richard up! I'd better get a new shaft ordered...

 

How do these come - with a plain non-keyed gearbox-end - cut to length then add your own keyway and 'dimples' (not holes, sorry Richard... ) ?

 

PC

 

Edit: another possibly stupid question - do the existing roller bearings need replacing with roller bearings or can I use ball bearings, of the correct deep groove type where needed?

 

Are we talking about something like the open version of this:

 

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/R16-EE9-2RS-Imperial...375824220921655

 

This sort of thing?

 

 

PC

[RLWP]

The thrust bearing is, so far as I can see, item 22 on the parts drawing. You'll have to remove the half-couplings to get at it. It's a fair bet, seeing the state of the rest, that it'll be shot.

A deep groove ball bearing is just an ordinary ball bearing but with, wait for it....... deep grooves!

The grooves are what the balls run in, being deeper than normal means they can carry more axial thrust.

 

The 40mm engagement isn't clever, it'll need to be sorted sooner or later if you want a reliable installation.

 

Tim

 

Is it possible that the thrust bearing is part 20, so all the thrust goes through the output shaft and onto the other end of the reduction gear housing? The thrust would go from the propshaft straight onto the end of the gearbox instead of through the housing. That would explain why the other bearing (22) has a plain inner race with no grooves.

 

Paul, what does bearing 20 look like?

 

Richard

 

This sort of thing?

 

 

PC

 

That's the badger

 

Richard

Edited April 26, 2010 by RLWP

[paulcatchpole]

Is it possible that the thrust bearing is part 20, so all the thrust goes through the output shaft and onto the other end of the reduction gear housing? The thrust would go from the propshaft straight onto the end of the gearbox instead of through the housing. That would explain why the other bearing (22) has a plain inner race with no grooves.

 

Paul, what does bearing 20 look like?

 

Richard

 

It's the upper roller bearing in this pic, item 20, on the outside of the large output gear...

 

 

Does the large circlip spotted on the exploded diagram have owt to do with taking thrust - or is it there in a pure retaining capacity?

 

That's the badger

 

Richard

 

Even tho' its not a roller bearing?

 

PC

 

Edited 'cause I'm a muppet!

 

Edit to add:

 

Is a roller thrust bearing like this one shamelessly nicked from Wikipedia?

 

This looks a bit like that bearing in the above pic, in front of the output gear?

 

 

PC

Edited April 26, 2010 by paulcatchpole

[RLWP]

So all the bearings 11, 20 and 22 are roller bearings?

 

Richard