Stern Tube / Gearbox / Starter Confusion Part 3

[paulcatchpole]

Paul's in the middle

 

Richard

 

You know, you might not be wrong there...

 

I've got some more lurrrrvely pictures, and I've fell out of love not only with the engine, but the reduction box as well, now. I've just resisted hitting it with the 'big' hammer, 'cause it wasn't to hand, fortunately.

 

So, to start with, what Richard and Tim have asked about nut clearance for the output stub shaft nut:

 

 

In the above shot, the taper is 35mm length and the whole stubby bit on the end is 18mm. I reckon that sticks out 1mm beyond the nut when the nut's on, don't forget there's a knock-over plate washer as well. So 20mm, say, of nut to hide...

 

Now, that may tie in with the following pic, where I've cleaned the coupling up a bit:

 

 

The above shows the interesting diameter on the inside - what do you think?

 

The annoying news is that my ickle puller (as opposed to the huge one), I can't get to pull even the ickle bearing out:

 

This puller:

 

 

and this bearing:

 

 

Nada.

 

Annoyingly too, I can't even get this nut undone - how is this done usually? Can't think of a way of holding the taper on the far end without damaging it, and there's no convenient way of locking the gear teeth...

 

Nut:

 

 

Whole rotaty-assembly:

 

 

But the prop boss seal, I have extracted, cleaned up and gleaned the numbers: NTK 824 SC 225 150 37 1...

 

 

I make that:

 

http://www.bearingboys.co.uk/W225150037R23...ilseals-22026-p

 

Sound right? Some success at least...

 

In terms of the condition of the bearings above - they're supposed to go round, right?

 

Oh, and my great idea of a cheap starter didn't work out - don't believe everything you read on the internet... Buuuuuuuuuut, I have found a real one for sale and it's on its way to me for tomorrow, with luck. Engine-turny-turny at weekend. Reckon it'll start if I dunk the feed and return into a diesel can above the engine?

 

PC

[WotEver]

Annoyingly too, I can't even get this nut undone - how is this done usually? Can't think of a way of holding the taper on the far end without damaging it, and there's no convenient way of locking the gear teeth...

Large pair of Stilsons (or vice, or large Mole Grips) around the knackered bearing immediately below it?

 

Tony

 

The annoying news is that my ickle puller (as opposed to the huge one), I can't get to pull even the ickle bearing out:

Tried copious amounts of heat on the casing around it?

 

Tony

[Timleech]

The annoying news is that my ickle puller (as opposed to the huge one), I can't get to pull even the ickle bearing out:

 

 

 

 

 

and this bearing:

 

 

Nada.

 

Annoyingly too, I can't even get this nut undone - how is this done usually? Can't think of a way of holding the taper on the far end without damaging it, and there's no convenient way of locking the gear teeth...

 

Nut:

 

 

Put the half-coupling and key back, with nut fingertight, that will give you something to get hold of.

Crudest, most effective next step is to tack weld the coupling face down to a steel bench (unless it's cast iron - unlikely). Or, drill two holes to bolt it to a steel bench. Or hold the nut in a big vice and use whatever means you feel appropriate to turn the coupling (a bit of steel flat bar with two bolts through the coupling flange, perhaps)

 

If there's no access to the other side to extract the bearing, an internal slide-hammer puller is what you need. You have removed the circlip?

Examples at

http://www.arceurotrade.co.uk/Catalogue/Hand-Tools, scroll down the page.

 

Or, if you're really stuck drill two (or better three) small holes through the casing from the other side to coincide with the outer race, and punch it out. Then tap the holes and put suitable screws in with loctite or sealant. Sometimes you find that sort of arrangement put in by the manufaturers, you just have to find the screws and get them out!

 

Or, remove the rollers & cage by whatever means you can. Run a bead of weld around the inside of the outer race, it will shrink on cooling and probably just drop out.

 

Tim

[Timleech]

Just to add that you may well be able to just prise that bearing out with a couple of judiciously shaped improvised pry bars, something with a 90 degree 'foot' on the end. Maybe even the legs from your puller, used freehand and tapped with a small hammer if need be.

 

The counterbore in the coupling I have is just 1" deep, so probably wouldn't allow room for both nut and bolt head. I would still favour having a reduced dia. on the shaft, to take the ahead thrust.

Have you seriously looked into the clamp type of coupling, and whether they can still be got in Lister 6-bolt style? It might be the simplest solution for you.

 

Tim

[paulcatchpole]

Large pair of Stilsons (or vice, or large Mole Grips) around the knackered bearing immediately below it?

 

Tried copious amounts of heat on the casing around it?

 

Tony

 

The bearing, despite being knackered, still turns, so the rollers would have to come out, and the cage removed in order to get a purchase on the race...

 

Haven't tried any heat yet, but I was heading that way.

 

Problem at the moment is that I've got half of my 'heavy' hand tools in the car, some at the house and some at the boat, and nothing is where it needs to be!

 

Put the half-coupling and key back, with nut fingertight, that will give you something to get hold of.

Crudest, most effective next step is to tack weld the coupling face down to a steel bench (unless it's cast iron - unlikely). Or, drill two holes to bolt it to a steel bench. Or hold the nut in a big vice and use whatever means you feel appropriate to turn the coupling (a bit of steel flat bar with two bolts through the coupling flange, perhaps)

 

Sounds like a good plan - I'd already tried holding the nut in the big vice and gently-ish tapping the actual gear around with a well fitting cold chisel, no luck mainly because I didn't have the 4lb hammer to hand, and I was a bit worried about snapping a tooth off.

 

I usually regress to a weld-things-to-it situation in the near future from this point, so I quite like your idea. There's a Vauxhall Carlton (probably in the big scrapyard in the sky by now) that's got a socket still welded to a front control arm nut, 'cause I forgot to unweld it...

 

If there's no access to the other side to extract the bearing, an internal slide-hammer puller is what you need. You have removed the circlip?

Examples at

http://www.arceurotrade.co.uk/Catalogue/Hand-Tools, scroll down the page.

 

Or, if you're really stuck drill two (or better three) small holes through the casing from the other side to coincide with the outer race, and punch it out. Then tap the holes and put suitable screws in with loctite or sealant. Sometimes you find that sort of arrangement put in by the manufaturers, you just have to find the screws and get them out!

 

Or, remove the rollers & cage by whatever means you can. Run a bead of weld around the inside of the outer race, it will shrink on cooling and probably just drop out.

 

Tim

 

I did remove the circlip, yup.

 

Oooh, a new tool? I like.... Would obviously prefer if I could remove it without needing to drill holes in the casing. On the weld idea, my best friend's KTM bike has lots of blind bearings in the engine case - MI for that is to stick the lot in the oven then just lightly tap the casing after baking and watch them all fall out, mind you he says it doesn't quite work like that in real life.

 

Good stuff Tim, thanks for the ideas.

 

Reckon the engine'll theoretically feed okay just from a can above it? Bleeding required beyond the screw on top of the filter and maybe one on the lift pump?

 

PC

 

Just to add that you may well be able to just prise that bearing out with a couple of judiciously shaped improvised pry bars, something with a 90 degree 'foot' on the end. Maybe even the legs from your puller, used freehand and tapped with a small hammer if need be.

 

The counterbore in the coupling I have is just 1" deep, so probably wouldn't allow room for both nut and bolt head. I would still favour having a reduced dia. on the shaft, to take the ahead thrust.

Have you seriously looked into the clamp type of coupling, and whether they can still be got in Lister 6-bolt style? It might be the simplest solution for you.

 

Tim

 

I reckon the bearing is possibly a bit more stuck than that, but I'm open to giving it a go. I've got a range of odd tools welded up as necessary from the past, I can probably find or make something to add a bit of leverage.

 

Yeah, I reckon there's 40-odd mm counterbore in this one, to cope with both nuts.

 

When you say the clamp type, you're talking about sort-of what I suggested a way above, a taperlock on the shaft, plus a taper-lock flange drilled for 6-bolt lister PCD. Possibly even a plain one and drill it? I quite fancied that idea earlier, but dismissed it due to wanting to keep the old shaft, and the solution not being long enough, but now a new shaft is on the way, it might be a goer again.

 

PC

[paulcatchpole]

Have a gander at this:

 

http://www.srm-eng.co.uk/pdf/mason_hubs.pdf

 

Somthing like their MTL-2 would be about the right size, not sure of the Lister PCD and I've left the coupling in the wrong place again, to be able to easily measure it now! Anyone know the PCD for the 6-bolt lister?

 

PC

 

Standard Fenner sizes, available anywhere:

 

 

PC

[Timleech]

When you say the clamp type, you're talking about sort-of what I suggested a way above, a taperlock on the shaft, plus a taper-lock flange drilled for 6-bolt lister PCD. Possibly even a plain one and drill it? I quite fancied that idea earlier, but dismissed it due to wanting to keep the old shaft, and the solution not being long enough, but now a new shaft is on the way, it might be a goer again.

 

PC

 

No, I meant one like this:-

 

http://www.midlandchandlers.co.uk/Products...ings/Sg006.aspx

 

A bit dearer than I imagined though!

 

Tim

[RLWP]

I'm wondering if I should go out and take a picture of my bench mounted vice, or the oxy-acetylene set, or the drill press, or the collection of hammers, or the dremel, or the angle grinders, or the blacksmiths forge in the garden...

 

Richard

 

There should be something to get the bearings out amongst that lot

 

 

 

It's a shame they are so expensive as it would save a lot of buggering about. Does anyone make steel ones?

Edited April 29, 2010 by RLWP

[Timleech]

 

 

It's a shame they are so expensive as it would save a lot of buggering about. Does anyone make steel ones?

 

They used to, but haven't seen any recently. The price of brass has gone very silly recently, no doubt contributes to the high price.

 

Tim

[paulcatchpole]

I'm wondering if I should go out and take a picture of my bench mounted vice, or the oxy-acetylene set, or the drill press, or the collection of hammers, or the dremel, or the angle grinders, or the blacksmiths forge in the garden...

 

Richard

 

There should be something to get the bearings out amongst that lot

 

 

 

It's a shame they are so expensive as it would save a lot of buggering about. Does anyone make steel ones?

 

Blimey, that's a lot for a flange and a clamp!

 

What about my idea of using a taperlock bush and flange?

 

The only problem I can see is that we might need a spacer making up, 6-bolt, say 20mm thick to go between one flange and t'other to give space for the nut?

 

PC

[creamcheese]

I have to say that I am thoroughly engrossed in this thread - -

 

I know nothing about Listers, even less about Capstan Lathes and headstocks - but can follow the general principle . .

 

I've come to the conclusion that this is like watching three surgeons working on a self-diagnosing patient, all of whom are in different countries and passing the operation instructions by text!

 

Keep it up chaps - this is CWF working at its very finest!!!

 

It certainly is, and I appreciate it more than anyone as it means Paul isn't expecting any answers from me! Apparently I was looking dis-interested last night when Paul was telling me about the latest updates to this thread. I don't know what gave him that idea, I only started filing my nails

 

In all seriousness, I will say (again) that I really really really appreciate everybody's help on this and hope to get the chance to thank you with a beer or three, or cake, ar bacon butties, or anything really!

 

(And on a less serious note, I find it hard not to be amused by much talk of flanges, nuts, shafts, bore, accommodation of lenght etc etc - what's wrong with a childish mind that sees slight rudeness everywhere? )

[paulcatchpole]

Righty, since no-one seems to like my taper-lock idea...

 

One question on the brass thing above, apart from it looking like a decorative item rather than an engineering solution, how does it deal with the counterbore required for the stub shaft nut?

 

Have we come back to the idea of getting a longer replica coupling made?

 

I can source the blank for under £20ukp, and beyond that, it can't be too hard can it?

 

I see Casper's got something similar knocked up:

 

 

Ta for the borrow of the pic, Casper.

 

PC

[paulcatchpole]

ASAP have this:

 

 

At least it looks like a piece of engineering, still not sure about length and the counterbore needed. Marginally cheaper than the MC one, but still expensive, in my book, at £99 (+vat presumably), and special order too.

 

PC

[Timleech]

ASAP have this:

 

 

At least it looks like a piece of engineering, still not sure about length and the counterbore needed. Marginally cheaper than the MC one, but still expensive, in my book, at £99 (+vat presumably), and special order too.

 

PC

It wouldn't be hard to add a bit of extra counterbore if needed, it looks to be machined from solid and there's something to get hold of with a lathe chuck unlike the MC offering which is done from a casting. I imagine, though, if it's made specifically for coupling to Lister boxes (it probably is) then the counterbore issue will have been taken care of (remember you only need room for the Lister nut in this case, not a shaft nut/screw).

 

The taperlock alternative should be fine if you can keep everything properly aligned. Taperlock is a good system, my worry is the angular stresses which would arise on the short bush if the engine alignment shifted.

I'm not speaking from experience in this exact context, just a bit of a gut feeling.

 

Edit to add that there would be the counterbore issue with the taperlock, as well as the shallow locating or 'register' bore to keep the two halves aligned.

Tim

Edited April 30, 2010 by Timleech

[WotEver]

Thinking laterally, how's about this for a solution...

 

1. Machine up a 1/2" (or maybe 3/4" or even 1") spacer to go between Paul's existing coupling and the output flange.

 

2. Machine up the same thickness "filler" to go inside the counterbore on the coupling to bring it down to the shaft's diameter, welded around the rear edge.

 

This would require a keyway to be created in the filler piece but apart from that would mean simple engineering and a 1/2" (or 3/4" or 1") increased depth of coupling.

 

Then just drill the coupling for the two pairs of grub screws as originally planned by Richard. (And drill and tap the end of the shaft for a bolt/washer if that's still considered necessary)

 

If you still want to turn down the shaft to create a shoulder to take ahead thrust then the "filler" from step 2 could be made stepped in order to slip inside the existing bore as well. This would mean it could be welded at both ends.

 

I'm not an engineer, so maybe I've missed something, or maybe it's not as easy as it seems to be, but it sounds to me to be cheap and relatively simple for men with sexy machines.

 

Possible?

 

Tony

[paulcatchpole]

It wouldn't be hard to add a bit of extra counterbore if needed, it looks to be machined from solid and there's something to get hold of with a lathe chuck unlike the MC offering which is done from a casting. I imagine, though, if it's made specifically for coupling to Lister boxes (it probably is) then the counterbore issue will have been taken care of (remember you only need room for the Lister nut in this case, not a shaft nut/screw).

 

The taperlock alternative should be fine if you can keep everything properly aligned. Taperlock is a good system, my worry is the angular stresses which would arise on the short bush if the engine alignment shifted.

I'm not speaking from experience in this exact context, just a bit of a gut feeling.

 

Edit to add that there would be the counterbore issue with the taperlock, as well as the shallow locating or 'register' bore to keep the two halves aligned.

Tim

 

Hi Tim, I'd have to check with Asap to see if that's actually made for the lister, it's just sold as a 6-bolt coupling with a variety of bores. As you say, if it's made for it, then they should've solved the nut issue.

 

As for the taperlock thing, then as for the counterbore requirement, I was thinking of a flat round spacer, with hole in the middle, rather like what Wotever's talking about, to space out from the taperlock flange to the gearbox flange?

 

hinking laterally, how's about this for a solution...

 

1. Machine up a 1/2" (or maybe 3/4" or even 1") spacer to go between Paul's existing coupling and the output flange.

 

2. Machine up the same thickness "filler" to go inside the counterbore on the coupling to bring it down to the shaft's diameter, welded around the rear edge.

 

This would require a keyway to be created in the filler piece but apart from that would mean simple engineering and a 1/2" (or 3/4" or 1") increased depth of coupling.

 

Then just drill the coupling for the two pairs of grub screws as originally planned by Richard. (And drill and tap the end of the shaft for a bolt/washer if that's still considered necessary)

 

If you still want to turn down the shaft to create a shoulder to take ahead thrust then the "filler" from step 2 could be made stepped in order to slip inside the existing bore as well. This would mean it could be welded at both ends.

 

I'm not an engineer, so maybe I've missed something, or maybe it's not as easy as it seems to be, but it sounds to me to be cheap and relatively simple for men with sexy machines.

 

Possible?

 

Tony

 

Sounds possible to me, and is sort of similar to Richard's earlier idea (before the counterbore issue came up) of adding a sleeve to the coupling to extend the engagement length.

 

I currently quite like the taperlock, if there's a flange to be had that fits the coupling PCD, as it only really requires a simple spacer making up.

 

What about welding a longer nose onto the current coupling, it'd be a 2.75" blank stock bar section, with a good v ground into one end of the coupling and the blank - then welded on - that'll take more than 20hp with no no problems, going by previous prop-shafts I've welded back together. Then, even if it's not completely straight, it can be line bored from the back, via the existing hole? Only needs to be 30mm thick, too, more of a big washer! Admittedly, it'll need a keyway though.

 

Whadda ya think?

 

PC

[Guest User]

Apologies if you've already considered this but have you tried NDE Clarke transmissions ?

 

They do Companion flanges. Their blurb says "The Companion Flanges can be supplied pilot bored or bored and keywayed. Custom designed Companion Flanges are a very common requirement and our design department will be able to advise on the best solution for your application."

 

They also do these Disc flanges ... I wonder if you could do something like this but instead of using all three sections, use only the middle and end section ?

 

I've no connection, and no idea how much they'd charge, but it might be worth a phone call and a chat ?

[paulcatchpole]

Apologies if you've already considered this but have you tried NDE Clarke transmissions ?

 

They do Companion flanges. Their blurb says "The Companion Flanges can be supplied pilot bored or bored and keywayed. Custom designed Companion Flanges are a very common requirement and our design department will be able to advise on the best solution for your application."

 

I've no connection, and no idea how much they'd charge, but it might be worth a phone call and a chat ?

 

The companion flange is what I had in mind when I suggested making/getting-one-made-up as a replica of the current coupling but with a longer nose.

 

PC

 

And to have another moan...

 

It's taken Limekiln to tell me that despite what they told me on the phone last week, in fact, they're out of stock of 32" shafts.

 

Not impressed, what a rubbish way to run a business.

 

Thankyou for your order. unfortunatley we are out of stock at this time.our suppliers are quoting delivery on 21st may. we have not taken any money from youand can supply you then if you still require it. please ring on 01902 751147 to let us know what you want us to do. thankyou

 

PC

 

Wait a minute here...

 

Have we come full circle here to realising that the shaft itself can't get any longer 'cause there's no space for extra shaft 'forward' of its current location due to the counterbore for the stub nut?

 

In fact, we're trying to extend the engagement portion down the tube astern of where it ends now - so the same shaft will be lovely, apart from its slightly iffy condition.

 

If you had to measure, just how much wear is expected/allowable at the packing-gland and bearing running-surface locations?

 

PC

[WotEver]

Have we come full circle here to realising that the shaft itself can't get any longer 'cause there's no space for extra shaft 'forward' of its current location due to the counterbore for the stub nut?

I believe so.

 

I think the concensus ended up being:

 

1. Turn a shoulder onto the shaft to take fwd thrust

2. Bore and tap end of shaft to take bolt and washer to take reverse thrust

3. End up with a coupling with a longer nose by whatever means

 

Tony

[paulcatchpole]

I believe so.

 

I think the concensus ended up being:

 

1. Turn a shoulder onto the shaft to take fwd thrust

2. Bore and tap end of shaft to take bolt and washer to take reverse thrust

3. End up with a coupling with a longer nose by whatever means

 

Tony

 

Excellent, Watson, I concur.

 

I like it.

 

Soooooo..............

 

What 'bout my idea of welding a longer nose on?

 

Richard, are you up to keyways and boring the 1.5" hole through the middle, using the existing coupling side as a starting point? Would have to be 1.5", so can't start doing shoulders on the shaft for ahead thrust, unless I weld a collar onto the shaft, which is possible...

 

PC

[RLWP]

I suppose I'm a bit sceptical, based on the fact that our BMC 1.8 has never managed to drive our prop hard enough to pull it out of the coupling, which is similar to the split ones posted earlier

 

Richard

 

Excellent, Watson, I concur.

 

I like it.

 

Soooooo..............

 

What 'bout my idea of welding a longer nose on?

 

Richard, are you up to keyways and boring the 1.5" hole through the middle, using the existing coupling side as a starting point? Would have to be 1.5", so can't start doing shoulders on the shaft for ahead thrust, unless I weld a collar onto the shaft, which is possible...

 

PC

[paulcatchpole]

I suppose I'm a bit sceptical, based on the fact that our BMC 1.8 has never managed to drive our prop hard enough to pull it out of the coupling, which is similar to the split ones posted earlier

 

Richard

 

Aye, but the split couplings are another thing to spend over £100 on, especially as manufacture of a custom replacement, from Casper's experiences could well be quite a bit under that sort of figure.

 

Do you agree about the keep-the-shaft issue? Doesn't look like the shaft could be much longer, even if we wanted it to be, due to the stub nut. Well, it could be a thin nut's depth longer (10mm maybe). The major engagement increase is going to be found extending in the other direction?

 

PC

[RLWP]

Aye, but the split couplings are another thing to spend over £100 on, especially as manufacture of a custom replacement, from Casper's experiences could well be quite a bit under that sort of figure.

 

Do you agree about the keep-the-shaft issue? Doesn't look like the shaft could be much longer, even if we wanted it to be, due to the stub nut. Well, it could be a thin nut's depth longer (10mm maybe). The major engagement increase is going to be found extending in the other direction?

 

PC

 

I'm sorry, I'm getting confused now. Are you saying that there is no gap between the end of the existing shaft (engaged by 40mm) and the end of the gearbox output shaft? Because that isn't the impression I got from the photos.

 

Richard

[paulcatchpole]

I'm sorry, I'm getting confused now. Are you saying that there is no gap between the end of the existing shaft (engaged by 40mm) and the end of the gearbox output shaft? Because that isn't the impression I got from the photos.

 

Richard

 

This 'ere like:

 

 

At a wild guess without measuring, the first 'step' into the coupling is the amount of space (possibly less than) needed to accomodate the stub nut on the output shaft. The depth of the next step, is how far the coupling can move backwards, and equates to the length of thread there would've been sticking out beyond the taper on the end of the original lister shaft for the thrust/retaining nut to be screwed on - in the days before the coupling was line-bored to 1.5"...

 

So, however long you think that nut might have been, is how much is can move in that direction?

 

PC

 

Edit, that should've been second and third steps inwards, above, really - I was ignoring the locating-step or whatever that's called.

PC

Edited April 30, 2010 by paulcatchpole

[Guest User]

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