Stern Tube / Gearbox / Starter Confusion Part 3

[paulcatchpole]

Right, I've made the mistake of reading old threads and I've gone confused about the engine rotation again...

 

Quoting various people, apologies for the lack of names...

 

which might explain why LH propped engines had front handles and RH propped engines had raised hand starting.......... just guessing!

I agree with tor reasoning, BUT: Our canal society runs a trip boat with SR2. LH150, and reduction gearbox. The prop is right hand. The camshaft rotates anti-clockwise when vewed from the front of the engine. We do not have a hand start. However, the parts book lists a hand start mechanism, which consists of a chain drive from the camshaft to a shaft fitted over the top of the engine. to a handle at the BACK of the engine. This would turn clockwise when viewed from the back of the engine (the business end wink.gif )

My Dad's SL has a left hand prop, my friends SR has a right hand prop and the SR I once looked a buying also came with a right hand prop.

 

Thread:

 

http://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=23902

 

Since I'm just about to buy a few expensive 'handed' items - can anyone confirm what rotation my engine is?

 

We've no serial, no starter and no prop to guess it from. We *do* have a the remains of a raised hand-start - i.e. a gearwheel on the outside of the crankshaft pulley...

 

I thought, reading Tim's comments on the above thread, that more-or-less anything with a standard LH150+Reduction was going to be L/H, but it seems not...

 

Do/did they have reduction gearing?

The LH150 hydraulic box was designed for operation in one direction only, which IIRC drove a LH prop with reduction gearing. They did list a reverse-rotation oil pump for the box but even 30 years ago you would have been lucky to find one. I did once, at least 25 years ago, modify a standard LH150 pump so that the box would run on an industrial SR, I know that boat and engine are still 'out there' and there are probably one or two others but they will be rare.

 

I'm well confused now...

[RLWP]

Have you got a starting handle dog on the crankshaft?

 

Richard

[paulcatchpole]

Have you got a starting handle dog on the crankshaft?

 

Richard

 

We've a cog on the crankshaft - as opposed to our ST2 which has the extended cam nose for starting.

 

This is the best photo I can find at the moment, which shows the cog and the curve of the fan shroud - just... I've had to tinker the levels to get it visible...

 

 

Does that help?

 

PC

 

Edit, this from Tim:

 

If you're unsure of the rotation of an aircooled engine, look at the fan shroud. On the Listers, they come up in a fairly graceful curve on one side and then drop down vertically. If, for instance, the shroud comes up from the left, looking from behind, then the engine will be clockwise rotation (again looking from behind, I'm not sure what Listers convention is), and if that same engine carries a reduction gear the prop will be Left-handed.

 

Tim

 

on the above thread, would suggest ours *is* Clockwise engine, LH prop, since you can see the fan shroud curving up from the right in the photo (left from the rear of the engine) ?

 

PC

Edited April 28, 2010 by paulcatchpole

[RLWP]

No! That's horrible. It looks like the boat has been kept under a hedge for thirty years!

 

Might help someone else though.

 

Richard

 

FWIW, the fan on the alternator should go clockwise in that view. But who's to say it's the right alternator for that engine?

 

What's that bicycle chain wheel doing on the crankshaft pulley?

[paulcatchpole]

No! That's horrible. It looks like the boat has been kept under a hedge for thirty years!

 

Might help someone else though.

 

Richard

 

FWIW, the fan on the alternator should go clockwise in that view. But who's to say it's the right alternator for that engine?

 

What's that bicycle chain wheel doing on the crankshaft pulley?

 

The boat had been kept under a hedge, and some of it under the water, for a number of years, aye!

 

The bicycle chainwheel is what I understood to be the raised hand-start - it matches what's in the manual - and would go to a cog on a shaft running on top of the rocker covers, to the rear of the engine for starting. That's what started my doubts in the above linked thread - 'cause the people were saying engines with that went t'other way around.

 

Saying that, I can't imagine Tim being wrong about nearly all LH150s being marine-rotation...

 

Dunno!

 

PC

 

Edit: If you're right about that alternator, and if it's the right one, then the engine is clockwise-from-front, meaning it's reverse-rotation and a clockwise prop. Hope someone's actually got the LH150 set up to go that way around, rather than running in reverse. That's a major pain in terms of the props I've got lined up! B**ger, I hope someone can nail this before lunchtime...

 

PC

Edited April 28, 2010 by paulcatchpole

[Timleech]

The boat had been kept under a hedge, and some of it under the water, for a number of years, aye!

 

The bicycle chainwheel is what I understood to be the raised hand-start - it matches what's in the manual - and would go to a cog on a shaft running on top of the rocker covers, to the rear of the engine for starting. That's what started my doubts in the above linked thread - 'cause the people were saying engines with that went t'other way around.

 

Saying that, I can't imagine Tim being wrong about nearly all LH150s being marine-rotation...

 

Dunno!

 

PC

 

Edit: If you're right about that alternator, and if it's the right one, then the engine is clockwise-from-front, meaning it's reverse-rotation and a clockwise prop. Hope someone's actually got the LH150 set up to go that way around, rather than running in reverse. That's a major pain in terms of the props I've got lined up! B**ger, I hope someone can nail this before lunchtime...

 

PC

 

No, those are on the camshaft, which goes round the other way (gear driven).

Try the chain sprocket, see which way it freewheels. The way that it won't freewheel is the way that the CAMshaft turns. As a check, turn the camshaft in that non-freewheeling direction and watch the output coupling. As these Lister boxes default to ahead, that will be the way the prop turns in ahead.

 

Tim

[paulcatchpole]

No, those are on the camshaft, which goes round the other way (gear driven).

Try the chain sprocket, see which way it freewheels. The way that it won't freewheel is the way that the CAMshaft turns. As a check, turn the camshaft in that non-freewheeling direction and watch the output coupling. As these Lister boxes default to ahead, that will be the way the prop turns in ahead.

 

Tim

 

Hi Tim - shamefully, I'm not at that boat at the moment, so I can't check! That cog doesn't freewheel at all - I've tried that in the past, but it *is* probably just seized...

 

Surely that's not the camshaft, is it? I don't think there's a shaft any lower in the engine case than that?

 

I was re-reading a thread where I'd sort of interrupted and asked the same question ages ago:

 

http://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php...mp;#entry410204

 

When you look at your last post, the green engine is the same as ours - in shape, completely - apart from the missing cylinder.

 

But...

 

On the other thread I linked, Iain_S says that that boat runs a R/H prop... ?????

 

Only explanation that came to mind from the pic is if it's 1:1 and doesn't have a reduction on it - it looks a bit lacking in the extra-gear-case front?

 

PC

[Mick_B]

Look to see which side of the teeth are worn on the sprocket. Failing that there must be wear on the ring gear from the starter pinion.

[paulcatchpole]

Look to see which side of the teeth are worn on the sprocket. Failing that there must be wear on the ring gear from the starter pinion.

 

I would if I could, but I'm nowhere near that boat at the moment...

 

With some gratuitous image enhancing, I've got this, does it help?

 

 

PC

[Mick_B]

Clear as mud in this case I'm afraid. You will most likely have to wait till you get to the boat.

[paulcatchpole]

Shamelessly blagged off Flickr, sorry, this is identical to ours, except ours is missing the hand-start-rod...

 

 

Exactly the same, apart from the colour, including the oil pressure gauge, LH150 and reduction, manifold locations, fan shroud etc...

 

PC

[RLWP]

Intriguing isn't it.

 

How about taking a rocker cover off and turning the engine over by hand. The exhaust valve opens and closes before the inlet, then they're both closed for a revolution

 

Richard

Edited April 28, 2010 by RLWP

[paulcatchpole]

Intriguing isn't it.

 

How about taking a rocker cover off and turning the engine over by hand. The exhaust valve opens and closes before the inlet, then they're both closed for a revolution

 

Richard

 

I suspect, I'm going to go with the belief that it's a marine rotation engine, L/H prop and the like, based on the fan shroud evidence and its installation as a marine package in '72, making Tim right and anyone who disagrees, wrong.

 

If I make an expensive mistake here, then no doubt I'll learn a useful lesson on the value of patience and the like...

 

On the valve thing, what's stopping me turning it backwards? As in, how would I know which was which? And I'm still not at the boat...

 

PC

[RLWP]

I suspect, I'm going to go with the belief that it's a marine rotation engine, L/H prop and the like, based on the fan shroud evidence and its installation as a marine package in '72, making Tim right and anyone who disagrees, wrong.

 

If I make an expensive mistake here, then no doubt I'll learn a useful lesson on the value of patience and the like...

 

On the valve thing, what's stopping me turning it backwards? As in, how would I know which was which? And I'm still not at the boat...

 

PC

 

Well, the exhaust valve rocker will be over the port in the cylinder head that connects to the exhaust, and the inlet valve rocker will be over the port that connects to the air inlet. If they open the wrong way around, you're turning it backwards

 

Richard

 

Someone will tell you know which are the inlets and which are the exhausts, starting from the alternator pulley end. Each cylinder is the same

[MoominPapa]

Exactly the same, apart from the colour, including the oil pressure gauge, LH150 and reduction, manifold locations, fan shroud etc...

 

Uncanny, it's even covered in cr*p too. This is a very lucky section-8 boat, Paul, to have so much effort lavished on it!

 

BTW, given the state of the reduction box, are you sure that the forward-reverse box is functional?

 

MP.

[RLWP]

 

Inlets on the left, exhausts on the right.

 

MP, I wonder if the engine goes around too. I'm considering buying Paul a punt pole to make my life easier

 

Richard

Edited April 28, 2010 by RLWP

[RLWP]

 

I think this is Mike Askins's Lister, Bachelor of this parish. Exhaust on left, inlet on right

 

Richard

[MoominPapa]

Inlets on the left, exhausts on the right.

Apropos nothing, is that JB-weld repairing the T-piece in the oil lines on the left hand cylinder?

 

MP, I wonder if the engine goes around too. I'm considering buying Paul a punt pole to make my life easier

 

or an outboard?

 

 

MP.

[RLWP]

Apropos nothing, is that JB-weld repairing the T-piece in the oil lines on the left hand cylinder?

 

 

 

or an outboard?

 

 

MP.

 

I think it something horrible that has been used instead of a rocker cover gasket. Some has dropped off on the tee piece. There's a load on the right hand head too.

 

It's not my engine, just a picture from the web

 

Richard

[paulcatchpole]

I think it something horrible that has been used instead of a rocker cover gasket. Some has dropped off on the tee piece. There's a load on the right hand head too.

 

It's not my engine, just a picture from the web

 

Richard

 

'S not mine either!

 

Cheeky monkies the lot of you...

 

The engine turns by hand, although I've not turned it over a full revolution, since all I had to hand was a mole wrench and I wanted to make sure it was free. The reverse box has clean oil in it - that's as far as I've been. Unlike the reduction which had watery black sludge on the dipstick. Suspect the output seal let the water in when it was sunk... Even if the reverse *is* knackered, it'll go forwards at least?

 

You're supposed to be erasing my doubts, not building them!

 

It'll be fine, nah warrries.

 

She'll be rite. etc etc

 

PC

[mayalld]

'S not mine either!

 

Cheeky monkies the lot of you...

 

The engine turns by hand, although I've not turned it over a full revolution, since all I had to hand was a mole wrench and I wanted to make sure it was free. The reverse box has clean oil in it - that's as far as I've been. Unlike the reduction which had watery black sludge on the dipstick. Suspect the output seal let the water in when it was sunk... Even if the reverse *is* knackered, it'll go forwards at least?

 

Well...

 

The reversing box (which is, of course a forward and reverse box) is designed to fail in forward gear.

 

It is pretty much impossible to test the reverse and neutral part of the box without running the engine up, because it requires oil pressure, which is supplied by a pinion driven oil pump.

 

However, provided the cone clutch is intact, in place (and the circlip hasn't come loose), and rotating the input rotates the output, and won't lip if resistance is applied, you should be OK for its "do nothing really" forward drive.

 

The big questions on neutral and reverse are;

• Is the oil pump OK?
  
• Are the actuator piston seals OK?
  

[paulcatchpole]

Well...

...

The big questions on neutral and reverse are;

• Is the oil pump OK?
  
• Are the actuator piston seals OK?
  

 

Well, to be honest, I've no idea - how much can be seen with the 'lid' off?

 

We'll find out soon enough though, now that things on the fixing-everything-else plan are coming together!

 

Cheers for the info Dave!

 

We're also the new owners of a very shiny L/H prop, so it'd better turn out to be a normal marine engine...

 

PC

[mayalld]

Well, to be honest, I've no idea - how much can be seen with the 'lid' off?

 

We'll find out soon enough though, now that things on the fixing-everything-else plan are coming together!

 

Cheers for the info Dave!

 

I don't recall whether you have separated the box from the engine.

 

If you haven't, then my inclination would be not to do so unless you have to. The dip tube for the oil pump is somewhat fragile, and it is possible to damage it as you separate the box from the engine.

 

The lid actually contains oil channels, so it is impossible to test the box with the lid off.

 

With the lid off, the reverse actuator is a vertical piston situated under the dome, and a visual inspection of the piston, and to ensure that the brake band is intact can be carried out.

 

The neutral actuator centres on the horizontal bar that runs across the back of the box. i don't recall if it is possible to check the piston, but it is possible to check the cone clutch engagement.

 

With the lid off, the box should be locked in gear. On the rear left of the box, there is a plate secured with 3 bolts and a 1/2" central bolt. Remove the central bolt, and insert one of the longer bolts from the lid. tighten the bolt, so that it operates the actuator arm, and the clutch should disengage, allowing free rotation of the output shaft.

[paulcatchpole]

I don't recall whether you have separated the box from the engine.

 

I've not done yet! - I've just split the reduction case in half to dismantle it...

 

 

If you haven't, then my inclination would be not to do so unless you have to. The dip tube for the oil pump is somewhat fragile, and it is possible to damage it as you separate the box from the engine.

 

The lid actually contains oil channels, so it is impossible to test the box with the lid off.

 

With the lid off, the reverse actuator is a vertical piston situated under the dome, and a visual inspection of the piston, and to ensure that the brake band is intact can be carried out.

 

The neutral actuator centres on the horizontal bar that runs across the back of the box. i don't recall if it is possible to check the piston, but it is possible to check the cone clutch engagement.

 

With the lid off, the box should be locked in gear. On the rear left of the box, there is a plate secured with 3 bolts and a 1/2" central bolt. Remove the central bolt, and insert one of the longer bolts from the lid. tighten the bolt, so that it operates the actuator arm, and the clutch should disengage, allowing free rotation of the output shaft.

 

So, without removing the reverse gear - can I just take the lid off to have an inspection of what's going on inside?

 

Ta for the info - excellent stuff to work at.

 

PC

[mayalld]

I've not done yet! - I've just split the reduction case in half to dismantle it...

 

 

 

 

So, without removing the reverse gear - can I just take the lid off to have an inspection of what's going on inside?

 

Ta for the info - excellent stuff to work at.

 

PC

 

 

Oh yes, just take all the bolts out and lift the top off.