21 hour working week

[Boaty Jo]

Story on the BBC web-site

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/8513783.stm

 

British Waterways Maintenance Manger said, 'I will not allow my staff to work extra hours under any circumstances'.

[Heffalump]

Story on the BBC web-site

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/8513783.stm

 

tit

 

British Waterways Maintenance Manger said, 'I will not allow my staff to work extra hours under any circumstances'.

 

haha

[MoominPapa]

Story on the BBC web-site

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/8513783.stm

Sounds like a great idea! I'd go for it.

 

British Waterways Maintenance Manger said, 'I will not allow my staff to work extra hours under any circumstances'.

I may be being dense, but where does that quote come from, and how is it related to the article?

 

MP.

[Byeckerslike]

Sounds like a great idea! I'd go for it.

 

 

I may be being dense, but where does that quote come from, and how is it related to the article?

 

MP.

 

I think that it may be a subtle dig that BW staff already work less than 21 hours per week!

 

Rob

[Barry]

4 day weekend followed by 3, 7 hour days

 

Woohoo! bring it on!

 

 

 

 

It would suit me but I'm about to retire early with a pension

 

I can see some sense in what the article says about the present way of living to work, to pay for consumables, that are destroying the planet. I can also see that more time at home might give more opportunity to improve relationships with children, neighbours, and the community. I think the point about us working more hours now whilst nearly 3 million are unemployed is valid too.

 

But as far as I can see cutting people's working time in half mean's cutting their income in half too and we are, without doubt, in a consumer society. I watched Andrew Marr on Thatcher last night and a poster caught my eye that said "Admire Aspire Acquire". That summed us up brilliantly I thought. It was true then and I think it's still true now.

 

Therefore what this think tank is proposing is so revolutionary, would require such an enormous culture change, that I can't see how it could be brought about in one go without something absolutely major happening to the whole country, something that affects us all in the same way.

 

Could it be done in small steps perhaps, over a long period of time? Maybe making a reduction in the working week statutory and in stages, say, at 5 year intervals.

 

What would be done to change the consumerist type of thinking though? As I see it that is the root of the problem.

[Pluto]

Story on the BBC web-site

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/8513783.stm

Bet they worked overtime writing the report!

[County4x4]

This isn't "radical thinking" - this is nonsense plain and simple. However, if you're on 60k plus a year for "thinking" - then you'll probably be able to afford to come up with such rubbish.

 

I'm sure 21 hours a week would be great for all of us - we could spend all those extra hours fighting someone for a cardboard box to sleep in, and doing "worthy tasks" like stealing food for our kids. Utopia!

 

I work 12 hour shifts days and nights, with four days on and then four off. The money is reasonable but only because it's shifts and most of the stuff we work with is toxic. My wife does company accounts for a building company and works school hours. We can get by on what we earn and are not complaining about our income - though there's little spare at the end of the month. We don't have foreign holidays - or even UK holidays a lot of the time, we've never had a new car and are unlikely ever to have one, but neither do we have massive credit card debts.

 

21 hours for me would be less than half of what I do now, and 5 or 6 hours less for Jo. If this ever came in we'd be looking for a cratch cover to rent - suitable for us and two fairly well behaved kids. The BBC report didn't mention wages, but having seen the calibre of the thinking this lot have come up with so far, perhaps they'll be suggesting to employers that they pay us the same for working a fraction of the time. The economy will be back on track in no time!

 

I just hope that all the feedback from the BBC website and elsewhere actually gets back to these wasters.

 

Cheers all,

 

Andy

[County4x4]

Just read your post Bazza - and see your point - but many of us are in the position where we have to work the hours we do just to stay afloat. When Jo and I got married in '99 - houses round here were averaging around £30k. Almost exactly a year later we moved to one that cost us £47k and that is now "worth" over £160k. Wages have increased by a fraction of this amount over the same period. Gawd knows what our kids will do when they grow up- buying their own place just looks like an impossibility at the moment.

 

We're only part of this "consumer society" you mention in so far as we buy water and gas that comes in pipes to our house, and food from local outlets. I drive a 14 year old van and Jo has a second hand estate car that we bought mainly for the fact that it returns 50mpg than for anything else. We don't have a massive plasma telly, don't have expensive holidays, do our own decorating and gardening and so on. I know that for many people - "luxuries" are important -and we ourselves have friends who have credit cards maxed out.

 

The point I'm making though is that even for people like us - who don't spend a fortune we don't have, money is never something we don't need to think about. I'd love to be in a position where Jo didn't need to go to work every day, and she could go and buy herself some clothes because they were what she liked, rather than what she thought she could afford, but if that's not going to happen with me working 48 hours over four shifts - then it's certainly not going to happen with a 21 hour week.

 

"Quality time" doesn't have to be expensive - or even cost a bean - but it's not going to be very good quality with the threat of re-possession or having the electricity cut off hanging over us. It's much easier to have quality time, and tell the rest of us that we should have it too, if like the members of this think tank, you are on a huge salary and probably don't even have a mortgage to worry about.

 

Without most of us moving to a remote Scottish Island and becoming subsistence farmers (which would probably involve working every hour of every day - plus of course we don't have £3-600k spare to buy a farm up there anyway) I can't see how the great majority of us could get by even just paying the mortgage and utility bills on 21 hours a week.

 

Andy

[NB Willawaw]

Good idea - for some..

 

If you earn £60k a year and the mortgage is paid for, etc, its might be an idea to work a couple of days a week, take a proportional pay-cut and spend more time with the kids/wife/dog than commuting into the city and getting home at 8pm. This will give someone else a chance.

 

However, if you earn £60k a year, you probably already have a lifestyle to suit (and the bills).

 

Giving all that up and embracing a lifestyle change is the issue.

 

Telling someone that who is earning £6 an hour isn't that useful.

[journeyperson]

I've thought that our work ethic has been up the pole for a long time. That quote "Admire, Aspire, Acquire" really does sum it up and it's crazy. If a 21 hour week was the norm there would be less unemployment and working people would have more time to enjoy life. The trouble is we're so brainwashed by advertising that people think we have to spend our leisure time shopping and spending money. Another factor to consider is that we have gone from having a manufacturing economy to having a service economy which depends on consumers to feed it, so a lot of people have to keep working to keep working, if you see what I mean.

 

I took early retirement a year ago and one thing I have discovered is that going to work was bloody expensive. My net income was halved but I can honestly say I have hardly noticed it and I can only put that down to not having the expense of going to work.

 

My wife has always earned more than me but when we started a family in 1979 she stopped work for 6 years and our income plummeted but we adjusted and never went hungry or without a holiday.

 

I think society would be better and happier if people worked less and played more but I don't think anything will change; people will go on admiring, aspiring and acquiring until the wheels fall off.

Edited February 13, 2010 by journeyperson

[NB Willawaw]

I agree John.

 

For a long time, I've noticed that the UK follows the USA, probably the greatest consumer society of all time.

 

Generally speaking, trends, etc that occur in the USA used to happen over here some time after.

 

It used to take a number of years, now with the "media" like the internet, it happens much quicker.

 

The dollar is the religion in the USA and we are becoming the same here.

 

Religion, family values, ethics are all up the creek.

[greywolf]

working 21 hours a week would mean working 21 hour more than i do already, but i would take that as as an alternative to living entirely off my savings.

[Phil Ambrose]

I agree John.

 

For a long time, I've noticed that the UK follows the USA, probably the greatest consumer society of all time.

 

Generally speaking, trends, etc that occur in the USA used to happen over here some time after.

 

It used to take a number of years, now with the "media" like the internet, it happens much quicker.

 

The dollar is the religion in the USA and we are becoming the same here.

 

Religion, family values, ethics are all up the creek.

 

I agree also, the world today seems to be in a perpetual state of aquisition and we seem to have lost all sense of proportion.

When I was young a pair of Levi's were cheap as chips and worn usually as workwear, today jeans now top £100, likewise the desire to own "Designer"anything. The reality is that all things are designed. A good example of this is when I was a sales rep for a big optical company we took a ordinary spec frame and stuck on a green croc (we paid 50p a pop royalties) and Voila! we were selling "Designer" spec frames for serious money.

 

Phil

Edited February 13, 2010 by Phil Ambrose

[NB Willawaw]

I went to a charity bash last weekend.

 

You know the thing, they charge you £50 a ticket and then try to get you to spend more with a succession of auctions and raffle ticket sales.

 

I looked at the auction items which started at about £60 and up and there were about ten differing things for sale.

 

Now, I know it was all in a good cause and participation was optional, but none of the auction items appealed to me.

 

Various golfing rounds, the hire of a mini-JCB for the afternoon, a spa session, tea at a London hotel and a designer name watch.

 

The watch sold for £110.

 

I said to the twenty something girl who bought it, "you paid for that £110 watch but you only gave it a quick glance".

 

Yes, she said, but it was a <designer name removed> watch !!!

 

Never heard of them, I replied to a blank look.

[journeyperson]

But as far as I can see cutting people's working time in half mean's cutting their income in half too and we are, without doubt, in a consumer society. I watched Andrew Marr on Thatcher last night and a poster caught my eye that said "Admire Aspire Acquire". That summed us up brilliantly I thought. It was true then and I think it's still true now.

 

That Andrew Marr series has been brilliant. He's looked at the Britain I have live in for 62 years, then analysed, explained and made sense of it for me. At times things have been a lot worse than they are now but we're not where we could be if lessons had been learned.

[nb Innisfree]

What a load of old tosh, trying to reduce the working week isn't a new idea, unions have been pushing for it for decades. Great idea but nothing revolutionary about it at all. I have heard 'new' ideas before, trouble is they are thought up by younger people who don't realise they are not new, round and round we go...

[nb Innisfree]

I agree also, the world today seems to be in a perpetual state of aquisition and we seem to have lost all sense of proportion.

When I was young a pair of Levi's were cheap as chips and worn usually as workwear, today jeans now top £100, likewise the desire to own "Designer"anything. The reality is that all things are designed. A good example of this is when I was a sales rep for a big optical company we took a ordinary spec frame and stuck on a green croc (we paid 50p a pop royalties) and Voila! we were selling "Designer" spec frames for serious money.

 

Phil

 

Actually consumer items are much cheaper now, a pair of Levis or Wranglers in the late 60s cost about £3-15s, equivalent to about 7 - 8hrs average wage, today that would be more than £80 + they were much better quality and came in all combinations of waist and leg sizes, all in 1" increments not 2" like today.

 

Old git mode off.

[steelaway]

I agree also, the world today seems to be in a perpetual state of aquisition and we seem to have lost all sense of proportion.

When I was young a pair of Levi's were cheap as chips and worn usually as workwear, today jeans now top £100, likewise the desire to own "Designer"anything. The reality is that all things are designed. A good example of this is when I was a sales rep for a big optical company we took a ordinary spec frame and stuck on a green croc (we paid 50p a pop royalties) and Voila! we were selling "Designer" spec frames for serious money.

 

Phil

 

 

Hi Phil

 

Thanks for that - you have just confirmed my suspicions.

I have often wondered how JCB/Caterpillar got into cloths and shoes.

At just 50p a throw you can have a designer label/name on any old tatt.

 

Alex

[Strads]

21 hour working week,, what drugs they were taking need uping and a new counseller!!..

 

if we had 50% un-employment and wanted every one to work and share the burden, then in the uptopian world it might have worked,,

the communist countrys proved that the concepts dindt work as us humans will work deals and at different levels..

 

out of teh current uk un-employed a significant % would love to have a decent job, but a certain % seem take every excuse not to want to work, but sponge the system,

 

at 21 hrss a week, who will make up the tax losses to support those that still wont work...

 

The french tried banning overtime and working restricted hours, to solve/reduce un=employment, the scheme didnt work as expected, unemployment didnt reduce very much, the rest in work reseented the loss of overtime which damged their income, particuarily on having cash to spend on more than essential items, and that loss of spending damaged the french ecomony, partiuarily on domestic tourism and the like...

 

A better proposal would be better training and support to those that neeed it and perhaps and increase the minimum wage to make work more attractive to those feeling that theres not much point of traying to work as they do all right on the benefits system...

 

I'm of to watch the rugby

[Roger Gunkel]

Unfortunately, in my opinion, it all has little to do with the number of hours that we work and more about greed of the huge money earners. Skill and ability to work, or create something or supply a good service is related to the ammount of money it can generate further along the line. Once a skill becomes personalised, then it becomes an opportunity for excessive greed. So if we look at football for instance, the top players can earn ridiculous ammounts of money just because their skill will draw people to see them, which creates vast ammounts of money for others, again through greed.

 

I was sickened to see the ammount that Wayne Rooney (for example), earns just for playing football. No ammount of pleading that the 'potential career is short', 'there may be injuries' etc, can possibly justify a weekly wage of getting on for £100,000 per week, let alone the millions that sponsorship brings in. Nobody NEEDS to earn that sort of money even to run an extremely comfortable lifestyle. That is proven by the ammount of excess shown by so many earning that sort of money in a number of different high profile areas. Even more shocking was that his wife gets paid £40,000 per week for writing a magazine column, not because she has any great writing skill, but because she has a famous husband. 21 hours a week-I doubt it! The magazine owners pay the money because the sales create even more cash to satisfy their own excessive lifestyles, fed by the frenzy of those who will pay out to read about the heroes they would love to copy.

 

There is no more work or skill involved in football, acting or singing, than in nursing, carpentry or anything else that needs time, talent and practice to perfect. However once people are prepared to pay to see something, the vultures can fleece as much as the market can bare. If top footballers were paid a wage comensurate with other top professionals, those wages could be based on a scale right across the board that would apply to bankers, Pop stars, Sportsmen, Industrialists etc. By all means let highly skilled or talented people earn higher wages than the average, but the sort of excesses and greed that we see now, means that we are all paying ridiculous prices, to get into football matches, motor racing, live pop concerts, record royalties, TV licence, etc etc. We are also suffering from the incredible cost of buying a home because the increasing prices are met by those with more money than most, or we are tempted into mortgaging our lives away to fund vast monetry institution wages and perks.

 

Maybe if we were all paid according to age experience and ability on similar pay scales, we would all be able to work 21 hours per week, with the profits from our work helping to expand the businesses we work in and keeping prices down, rather than going into ridiculous individual troughs. It might also inspire people to offer their best to climb up the pay scale and still have the time to enjoy their leisure.

 

Bearing in mind that 10% of the population control 90% of the wealth, here's a little dream:-

A company brings in enough money, £20m, to pay it's 100 staff on top of its operating profit.

90 workers at average £22,000 per year each

10 Senior executives, directors and consultants, average 1.8 million each including bonuses and options

 

Draconian new laws are brought in restricting maximum pay scale to £200,000 each and all non executive workers to have their hours cut to 21hrs per week.

 

In a philanthropic and encouraging way, the company decides to offer its workers an average £44,000 pa for only 21 hrs per week, but needs to double the workforce to do the same ammount of work

 

All Senior executives, directors and consultants have a new ceiling of £200,000 pa.

 

Net result, total pay is now costing the company £10m per year, saving £10m for further expansion or price reductions. Company decides to reduce prices a little and also increase the investment from extra profit. Unemployed have reduced due to greater employment numbers in major companies, leisure hours have increased dramatically and workers have double the income, enabling them to get forget their money worries, buy reduced price products, go to cheaper concerts, sports events etc and buy affordable housing. All this leads to new growth and new businesses startups and eventually - UTOPIA

 

Unfortunately it will never happen due to human nature and greed.

 

Roger

[County4x4]

Roger - when you're in charge you'll definitely have MY vote!

 

Andy

[PaddingtonBear]

The other side of the coin from the OP is those who work long hours with not hope of ever earning a basic living wage. The Great Helmsman's eldest son aged 24 works 115 hours a fortnight on a rotating day shift for a large national company that appears to be doing OK. He will never earn enough to live even basically and will exist for all his days on cheap food, cheap clothes and crap furniture. He does not run a car and his entertainment consists of going down the crapest pub in a very crap town every Wednesday to watch football on Sky. He is a great, very nice person - kind and gentle, but it really annoys me that he will never have any ability to have the nice things that many people take for granted.

[NB Alnwick]

I really don't think I would be able to work all of 21 hours in a week - it wouldn't leave enough time for boating.

[Roger Gunkel]

The other side of the coin from the OP is those who work long hours with not hope of ever earning a basic living wage. The Great Helmsman's eldest son aged 24 works 115 hours a fortnight on a rotating day shift for a large national company that appears to be doing OK. He will never earn enough to live even basically and will exist for all his days on cheap food, cheap clothes and crap furniture. He does not run a car and his entertainment consists of going down the crapest pub in a very crap town every Wednesday to watch football on Sky. He is a great, very nice person - kind and gentle, but it really annoys me that he will never have any ability to have the nice things that many people take for granted.

 

It's the same old story unfortunately, those with the money and power know that they can pay him the bare minimum because he probably has little alternative

and they can get away with paying as little as possible. There will probably be no loyalty from them either, no matter what loyalty he offers them.

 

Roger