Restraint of trade?

[Dominic M]

I see Jim Shead has launched a petition on the Downing Street site.

[Chris Pink]

Do what?

 

What does it mean Mr M?

[Naughty Cal]

Am i the only one who finds this petition pointless?

[Matthew Knowles]

Am i the only one who finds this petition pointless?

No, not the only one.

 

The only result of the ones that I've signed seem to be "We are the government, you are not. This means that we know what we are doing and you don't. Blah, blah, blah. That will be another £50 on my expenses for keyboard wear. Blah, blah, blah".

[Nine of Hearts]

I see Jim Shead has launched a petition on the Downing Street site.

 

I think the link should be: Jim Shead's Petition

 

The one above just sent me to the confirmation page you get after you signed.

 

[i persevered and added my pawprint merely because I like your wet nose]

[Dominic M]

Do what?

 

What does it mean Mr M?

Sorry Chris - the link is meant to take you to his petition. Doesn't it? If you look at Jim Shead's website you can read details of a disagreement with Great Haywood Marina when he sought to sell his boat privately. I suspect he is right that a marina insisting their moorers, should they wish to sell, must use their brokerage and no other is probably unlawful, but difficult to establish. It can be arguyed that if they don';t like it they can go elsewhere, but that is not a practical option in many instances and in any case, they may well have paid for their existing mooring for some months hence.

 

I err on the side of an open free market - it would be a lot healthier and better for boat owners too.

 

Does it make sense now (whether you agree or disagree with the proposition).

 

Cheers

 

Dominic

 

The one above just sent me to the confirmation page you get after you signed.

So it does. Sorry.

[i persevered and added my pawprint merely because I like your wet nose]

Shhhhhhh! Can we keep this stuff for the private messaging section of Facebook, as normal?

[Chris Pink]

Does it make sense now (whether you agree or disagree with the proposition).

 

Ah yes, i was just being dense.

 

 

Don't agree. I you keep your thing in my place then I don't you bringing other people to look at it, using my place and facilities, when I'm not getting any benefit.

 

 

Although for a small fee....

 

Worth remembering that not all marinas are big business.

 

Which is different in my mind to the issue of using outside companies for doing works which is an unfair restriction.

 

But then it is your choice to use the marina that makes is a contract you don't agree with.

[Naughty Cal]

Sorry Chris - the link is meant to take you to his petition. Doesn't it? If you look at Jim Shead's website you can read details of a disagreement with Great Haywood Marina when he sought to sell his boat privately. I suspect he is right that a marina insisting their moorers, should they wish to sell, must use their brokerage and no other is probably unlawful, but difficult to establish. It can be arguyed that if they don';t like it they can go elsewhere, but that is not a practical option in many instances and in any case, they may well have paid for their existing mooring for some months hence.

 

I err on the side of an open free market - it would be a lot healthier and better for boat owners too.

 

Surely he knew the marinas terms and conditions when he took the mooring. This isnt an uncommon clause.

[Dominic M]

Don't agree. I you keep your thing in my place then I don't you bringing other people to look at it, using my place and facilities, when I'm not getting any benefit.

 

Which is different in my mind to the issue of using outside companies for doing works which is an unfair restriction.

 

But then it is your choice to use the marina that makes is a contract you don't agree with.

But any moorer would want and expect the right to be able to invite friends over. I can't see the difference. If you rented a flat, for example, would it be reasonable for the landlord to demand a slice of the income if you decide to sell your TV from there on eBay?

 

Surely he knew the marinas terms and conditions when he took the mooring. This isn't an uncommon clause.

Correct. It is a very common clause. Jim Shead's point is that it is probably unlawful and unenforceable. Just because you sign an agreement does not mean all the terms in it may be enforceable. many contracts have been challenged on this basis, in that they constitute what the law describes as an "unfair bargain".

 

* * * * *

 

In answer to Matthew Knowles's point about the ineffectiveness of government "epetitions" I tend to agree. But it does get people talking about an issue, and I won't deny that for me this is of particular interest.

[Liam]

That will be another £50 on my expenses for keyboard wear. Blah, blah, blah".

 

Nope it will be £100 because they will also need to change the keyboard at their second home!

[Hairy-Neil]

Nope it will be £100 because they will also need to change the keyboard at their second home!

 

My last keyboard cost me 4 quid, perhaps that's why I have RSI......

[Chris J W]

Perhaps I'm being dense, but why can't Jim just take the case directly to the Director General of Fair Trading? Why does it need the PM to be involved?

 

(BTW: I'm not knocking Jim or his cause.)

[Dawnie]

http://www.jim-shead.com/waterways/mwp.php...eat-Haywood.htm

 

I think there may be a little more to this. The marina I am in will take a percentage if you sell your boat privately (not sure what without looking it up though) or you can use their brokerage.

[carlt]

Perhaps I'm being dense, but why can't Jim just take the case directly to the Director General of Fair Trading? Why does it need the PM to be involved?

 

(BTW: I'm not knocking Jim or his cause.)

I tend to agree (though I too do not disagree with the cause).

 

Would it not be better to challenge the issue in the courts or, perhaps even better, force the marina to challenge it by getting a sympathetic broker to list his boat?

[mikevye]

I sell vans for a PLC, if someone came onto the display area which costs £Ks to run and maintain I'd say sling your hook sunshine or else. Ditto Marina where running costs must be substantial and if there is no return in allowing private sales then why should they allow it?

[Kraken]

Don't agree. I you keep your thing in my place then I don't you bringing other people to look at it, using my place and facilities, when I'm not getting any benefit.

 

 

 

Which is different in my mind to the issue of using outside companies for doing works which is an unfair restriction.

 

So what is the difference? Your saying it's OK to bring someone in to fix a boat using your facilities, for no benefit, but it's not OK to bring someone in to look at a boat? Does that make any sense?

[mayalld]

I sell vans for a PLC, if someone came onto the display area which costs £Ks to run and maintain I'd say sling your hook sunshine or else. Ditto Marina where running costs must be substantial and if there is no return in allowing private sales then why should they allow it?

 

This isn't a display area, that is the difference.

[Chris Pink]

Well much as Mr Shead may be the doyen of hideous but informative websites I have to say that not keeping a copy of a signed contract is plain daft.

 

One of those terms and conditions will almost certainly be the right to change the terms and conditions but I believe they would have to give notice of such change.

 

So what is the difference? Your saying it's OK to bring someone in to fix a boat using your facilities, for no benefit, but it's not OK to bring someone in to look at a boat? Does that make any sense?

 

Well it seems obvious to me that one is unfair practice and the other isn't so clear cut. If you feel the marina should charge to let someone fix your boat you are entitled to your opinion.

 

And as Mr Shed says he can always list the boat somewhere else and let the marina take action against him.

 

But any moorer would want and expect the right to be able to invite friends over. I can't see the difference. If you rented a flat, for example, would it be reasonable for the landlord to demand a slice of the income if you decide to sell your TV from there on eBay?

 

if I sold TVs on ebay as a business I would likely want to stop my tenants doing so by a clause in the contract.

[mikevye]

This isn't a display area, that is the difference.

 

Correct and hence the disagreement between the parties. By offering the boat for sale with I assume signs to indicate the fact then it does become a display area and hence the marinas objection. Taken a step further what if Jimbo had three boats and offered them all for sale or on selling this one thinks "that was easy money" and goes and buys another to sell on whilst still living on the marina?

[alan_fincher]

I sell vans for a PLC, if someone came onto the display area which costs £Ks to run and maintain I'd say sling your hook sunshine or else. Ditto Marina where running costs must be substantial and if there is no return in allowing private sales then why should they allow it?

If you rented me a private lock-up garage, and I kept my van in that rented garage, I'd expect to be able to bring someone there to look at the van if it were my intention to sell it.

 

It you rent me a bit of water to put my boat in, and a bit of bank or pontoon to tie it against, why is it not reasonable to expect I could do similar ?

 

These restrictive practices in private moorings and marinas really hack me off.

 

It's fine saying "if you don't like the terms, don't sign up to them - there often is not a lot of choice about where a mooring can be had.

 

Marinas sell boats on their brokerage, for which it is hard to get a mooring, but offer you one there, as part of the deal - fair enough, good business. But after that they are taking an arm and a leg off you for the mooring - I don't believe that they should also be able to dictate that (effectively) the only way the boat can be re-sold is by them, at some very large commission. Our former marina makes serial money just reselling many of the same boats over and over, because people are so restricted for choices about alternatives.

[Naughty Cal]

Marinas sell boats on their brokerage, for which it is hard to get a mooring, but offer you one there, as part of the deal - fair enough, good business. But after that they are taking an arm and a leg off you for the mooring - I don't believe that they should also be able to dictate that (effectively) the only way the boat can be re-sold is by them, at some very large commission. Our former marina makes serial money just reselling many of the same boats over and over, because people are so restricted for choices about alternatives.

 

The other option is leave your mooring in the marina and sell it privately from another mooring.

 

Our marina does the same making money from the same boats being sold time and time again. They cant offer a bad service as the same people go back time and time again to buy their next boat. You pays your money and takes your choice.

[Paul H]

Many contracts state that terms and conditions can be subject to change provided that they are clearly displayed at the place of business. Is this legal?

 

However, I do actually think it entirely reasonable that a marina with a specialist brokerage division insists all sales should be through them. They spend a lot of time and money on advertising getting potential buyers to the marina to look at boats -it would hardly be fair if someone was then attracted by a boat privately for sale. On the other hand if someone is poking around looking at boats then for security reasons it would seem sensible that they should come through the "office."

 

And whilst sympathising, I find it hard to believe that Jim Shead didn't know the system at his marina even if he had not kept a record of the mooring conditions - I imagine he just thought he could get away with it.

 

I am sure Dominic would not want a boat sold privately from his moorings and I also imagine he benefits from having sole rights to sell boats from certain marinas - again all quite reasonable.

 

I would suggest Mr Shead goes to the OFT - I imagine he will get short shrift though.

 

Paul H

[ditchcrawler]

But any moorer would want and expect the right to be able to invite friends over. I can't see the difference. If you rented a flat, for example, would it be reasonable for the landlord to demand a slice of the income if you decide to sell your TV from there on eBay?

 

 

Correct. It is a very common clause. Jim Shead's point is that it is probably unlawful and unenforceable. Just because you sign an agreement does not mean all the terms in it may be enforceable. many contracts have been challenged on this basis, in that they constitute what the law describes as an "unfair bargain".

 

* * * * *

 

In answer to Matthew Knowles's point about the ineffectiveness of government "epetitions" I tend to agree. But it does get people talking about an issue, and I won't deny that for me this is of particular interest.

A similar thing takes place with mobile homes, or it did. It use to be on the TV quite often.

[Chris Pink]

These restrictive practices in private moorings and marinas really hack me off.

 

It's fine saying "if you don't like the terms, don't sign up to them - there often is not a lot of choice about where a mooring can be had.

Our former marina makes serial money just reselling many of the same boats over and over, because people are so restricted for choices about alternatives.

 

Well come on, look at this a little, Alan. You are saying "i don't like what you are selling but i have no choice". Of course you have a choice, you have accepted all the good stuff that goes with a marina and but don't want the bad.

 

Cake and eat it?

 

If you don't like what the marina offers don't buy it. Easy.

 

I would suggest Mr Shead goes to the OFT - I imagine he will get short shrift though.

 

Did i read somewhere that he did and they didn't want to know?

[ditchcrawler]

I tend to agree (though I too do not disagree with the cause).

 

Would it not be better to challenge the issue in the courts or, perhaps even better, force the marina to challenge it by getting a sympathetic broker to list his boat?

He has sold it