Restraint of trade?

[Kraken]

I wasn't expressing an opinion one way or the other. I just can't see why a charge should be incurred for looking at a boat and an not for fixing a boat, as you said. Either charge for both or not for either. You can obviously see a difference. So can you explain to me what the difference is?

 

That'll be a no then Chris?

[Chris Pink]

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That'll be a no then Chris?

 

o how tediously aggressive you are.

 

see post #49

 

edit: and post #53

Edited January 7, 2010 by Chris Pink

[alan_fincher]

Really scraping the comparison website here Alan! private lock up/private land what the forks that got to do with the point in contention? Bit of water/bit of bank exactly the same. NOTHING!

It seems we have increasingly one thing in common. Mike.

 

Neither of us seems able to make a point in a way that the other can understand it!.

 

I really have no idea what your reply is trying to say, but my original comparison seemed valid enough to me.

[sueb]

OK, well being involved with both a brokerage and a marina I'll add my tuppence-worth.

 

It is a mean marina indeed that would come along after you sold your boat to someone you knew and demanded their cut (although they do exist). However what marinas and their associated brokerages don't want is a stream of people turning up to look over boats because they've been widely advertised for sale. There is a difference in bringing a friend back to your boat on a private marina and strangers turning up and wandering around. Especially if they are unaccompanied and have just been given the keys by the seller. Most marina-based brokerages will accompany prospective buyers to viewings both for the security of the boat and for other moorers. After all, the other moorers don't want strangers wandering around peering into boats. There has to be an element of control.

 

What a marina & its brokerage certainly don't want is Jones from the marina/brokerage down the road turing up at their marina and wandering onto the pontoons. Would any of you marina moorers really be happy with this sort of thing going on?

 

A marina stands by the reputation of its brokerage and vice versa. It is therefore in the interests of all parties to work with each other. However if you really don't want to sell your boat through the marina's own brokerage you have the option to give your notice to the marina and take your boat to your chosen broker. I can't see how a marina could still demand its cut if that is what you do. This of course is the major difference between boats and the static caravan example cited earlier.

 

I suspect there is more than a mouthful of sour grapes clouding Jim Shead's actions, and of course we don't know the whole story.

 

So I would finish by saying to you marina moorers: would you really be happy seeing a load of strangers wandering up and down your pontoon looking at the boats with no-one from the marina accompanying them?

 

Edited for fat finger syndrome.

This happens at Braunston. I have often sat on a friends boat whilst punters walked past gazing at boats for sale. I thought it was the norm.

Sue

[Kraken]

o how tediously aggressive you are.

 

see post #49

 

edit: and post #53

 

Tedious and aggressive? I only gave you a gentle prod when you hadn't answered the question. Hardly aggressive. Isn't your reply the more aggressive? You only have to review your posting history to see who is the aggressive one. Do you really mean that anyone who disagrees with you is tediously aggressive? And still, of course, no answer. Should I assume this means that you don't have one? Instead you refer me to post 49. And then you refer me to post 53, meaning that you can never understand my point of view, without necessarily accepting it? Or does it mean you are too narrow minded to try? I'm not yet ready to invoke post 53, so let me try to explain my point. You say that it's not OK to sell a boat privately at a marina that has a brokerage without paying a fee, yet it is OK to have your boat repaired by an outside source. Since many marinas have an in house engineer/ repair facility, this is a direct contradiction in your point of view. That is the point to which I was seeking an answer, no aggression intended. So can you explain?

[Naughty Cal]

This happens at Braunston. I have often sat on a friends boat whilst punters walked past gazing at boats for sale. I thought it was the norm.

Sue

 

And are you/your friend really happy with that situation?

 

I wouldnt be. Given the strict security procedures at our marina, all boats for sale in the marina are either on the brokerage moorings (seperated from the private moorings by security gates and lots of water) or if a boat is being sold from its own mooring (usually because the owner is still using it) then all viewings are accompanied by a member of the brokerage staff.

 

I wouldnt be happy with random members of the public wandering about on the pontoons.

[Chris Pink]

Tedious and aggressive? I only gave you a gentle prod when you hadn't answered the question. Hardly aggressive. Isn't your reply the more aggressive? You only have to review your posting history to see who is the aggressive one. Do you really mean that anyone who disagrees with you is tediously aggressive?

 

Aggressive, me? Yes, on occasion when something is worth arguing passionately about, I do try and avoid being tedious although I am in danger of it here.

 

anyway... answer you have demanded, answer you shall have.

 

imagine, if you will, a hypothetical marina with hypothetical flowers and hypothetical bees.

 

I own this marina, I run a brokerage business and an engineering shop.

 

I don't want other brokers using my marina to run their business.

 

But do I stop my moorers bringing in a stained glass artist to make them some doors? do i stop someone consulting a Gardner specialist? do I stop people bringing food from Tescos because I sell baked beans and UHT milk in my marina shop?

 

If people didn't use my conveniently to hand facilities to commission the work i specialise in i would think there was something worth looking at in my service delivery or prices or maybe i would be so busy i couldn't be bothered. If people don't like my brokerage they are free to take their boat to a broker of their choice.

 

I see no contradiction in my position.

 

You obviously do. Please feel free to disagree with my point of view.

 

Now o saurian one, will you go away and think about something that is important to the quality of life and boating and stop bugging me with your pathetic and, yes, tedious attempts at point scoring over the trivial question of whether you can make an extra £1500 on your Liverpool boat by whinging about something you signed up for (hypothetically speaking)

Edited January 8, 2010 by Liam
Edited to remove insult.

[Dominic M]

OK, well being involved with both a brokerage and a marina I'll add my tuppence-worth.

 

However what marinas and their associated brokerages don't want is a stream of people turning up to look over boats because they've been widely advertised for sale.

Really? It would be a strange brokerage that set up in a marina and prayed that people didn't turn up to look at the boats they had for sale.

There is a difference in bringing a friend back to your boat on a private marina and strangers turning up and wandering around. Especially if they are unaccompanied and have just been given the keys by the seller. Most marina-based brokerages will accompany prospective buyers to viewings both for the security of the boat and for other moorers.

That is certainly not the case. There are two very well known brokerages in my vicinity where they simply hand over keys - often several sets at a time to anyone who asks. I'm not criticising that practice although I wouldn't do it that way; but it is what happens.

What a marina & its brokerage certainly don't want is Jones from the marina/brokerage down the road turing up at their marina and wandering onto the pontoons. Would any of you marina moorers really be happy with this sort of thing going on?

Using the OFT guidelines for holiday caravans, they deem it right that the park owner should be informed if the owner makes that stipulation and the park owner must not withhold his/her consent unreasonably. I happen to broker a number of boats that are on moorings dotted around the system as well as from my own. Frequently they are in marinas. Viewings are strictly by appointment only and are always accompanied by someone - often the owner. That is less likely to upset other moorers than, say, where SueB refers to, when on a sunny summer weekend the place may be crawling with prospective buyers just "looking around".

A marina stands by the reputation of its brokerage and vice versa.

I have never known anyone choose to moor at a particular marina because of the brokerage service they may offer. (Although by stating this and appling the Law of Sod I guess I am inviting someone to come forward and tell me they did - c'est la guerre!)

 

Forgive me, dor: I just don't feel this defence of what I know many view as a restrictive practice holds water. The truth is, let's be honest, that for a marina it is some handy extra income in many cases for not doing much more than sticking a notice in the office window. That would possibly be a more honest response.

Edited January 8, 2010 by Dominic M

[Chris Pink]

That is certainly not the case. There are two very well known brokerages in my vicinity where they simply hand over keys - often several sets at a time to anyone who asks. I'm not criticising that practice although I wouldn't do it that way; but it is what happens.

 

Not a great way of selling something worth so much money to someone who may not know exactly what they are looking at.

 

The truth is, let's be honest, that for a marina it is some handy extra income in many cases for not doing much more than sticking a notice in the office window. That would possibly be a more honest response.

 

Which is a different case to a marina that actively runs a brokerage business.

 

I use to manage a website for a group of static caravan parks and to be honest the 'leases' amounted to little more than theft.

 

If you were at all astute you would not sign up to something that is only just the legal side of the dodgier time-share scams.

 

Trouble is people pay more attention to the salesman than the small print.

[mayalld]

Aggressive, me? Yes, on occasion when something is worth arguing passionately about, I do try and avoid being tedious although I am in danger of it here.

 

anyway... answer you have demanded, answer you shall have.

 

imagine, if you will, a hypothetical marina with hypothetical flowers and hypothetical bees.

 

I own this marina, I run a brokerage business and an engineering shop.

 

I don't want other brokers using my marina to run their business.

 

But do I stop my moorers bringing in a stained glass artist to make them some doors? do i stop someone consulting a Gardner specialist? do I stop people bringing food from Tescos because I sell baked beans and UHT milk in my marina shop?

 

If people didn't use my conveniently to hand facilities to commission the work i specialise in i would think there was something worth looking at in my service delivery or prices or maybe i would be so busy i couldn't be bothered. If people don't like my brokerage they are free to take their boat to a broker of their choice.

 

I see no contradiction in my position.

 

You obviously do. Please feel free to disagree with my point of view.

 

The contradiction is that you are happy for the other activities to take place on site, but if the boat is to be sold, you want it off site.

 

Now, if your position was that if you want your engine looked at by somebody else, you have to take it to somebody else, and if you want to buy food from Tesco, you should cruise to Tesco, your position would be tenable (if silly IMHO)

 

Subject to stipulations such as "any body viewing a boat must be accompanied by the owner, who must meet the prospective buyer at the gate", then the marina should keep out of things.

[Chris Pink]

The contradiction is that you are happy for the other activities to take place on site, but if the boat is to be sold, you want it off site.

 

Selectively quoting again Mr Mayall?

 

As I said, it is up to you whether you sign up to those terms and you are free to move if you don't agree.

 

And your absurd Tesco analogy as well - would you give money to a marina that had that as a condition?

 

There are marinas that say you can only buy coal, diesel and engineering from them if you moor there. My advice to you - avoid.

[mayalld]

Selectively quoting again Mr Mayall?

 

As I said, it is up to you whether you sign up to those terms and you are free to move if you don't agree.

 

And your absurd Tesco analogy as well - would you give money to a marina that had that as a condition?

 

There are marinas that say you can only buy coal, diesel and engineering from them if you moor there. My advice to you - avoid.

 

"It is up to you whether you sign"....

 

Well, no it isn't, not if you want a mooring.

 

When an overwhelming majority of mooring suppliers start to impose conditions regarding selling your boat, you don't actually have that many options!

 

The fact that the market can allow such conditions to arise is the reason for unfair contract terms legislation.

[carlt]

"It is up to you whether you sign"....

 

Well, no it isn't, not if you want a mooring.

 

When an overwhelming majority of mooring suppliers start to impose conditions regarding selling your boat, you don't actually have that many options!

 

The fact that the market can allow such conditions to arise is the reason for unfair contract terms legislation.

Would that apply to the unenforcible conditions that we "sign up to" when we get a boat licence?

 

After all you have more marina options than waterway operator options.

[Naughty Cal]

"It is up to you whether you sign"....

 

Well, no it isn't, not if you want a mooring.

 

When an overwhelming majority of mooring suppliers start to impose conditions regarding selling your boat, you don't actually have that many options!

 

The fact that the market can allow such conditions to arise is the reason for unfair contract terms legislation.

 

Thats not strictly true though is it?

 

Not all marinas/mooring sites have a brokerage attached so the conditions attached to those moorings will be different.

 

We all have a choice of where we moor our boats. If you dont like the conditions where you are moored then you are free to move your boat or ask for the conditions with which you disagree to be amended. You may not be able to find a mooring in your prefered spot but there will always be a mooring somewhere.

[mayalld]

Would that apply to the unenforcible conditions that we "sign up to" when we get a boat licence?

 

Is a boat licence a contract?

[dor]

Really? It would be a strange brokerage that set up in a marina and prayed that people didn't turn up to look at the boats they had for sale.

 

I of course was not referring to the boats that the brokerage had for sale but referring to people advertising their boats independently.

 

That is certainly not the case. There are two very well known brokerages in my vicinity where they simply hand over keys - often several sets at a time to anyone who asks. I'm not criticising that practice although I wouldn't do it that way; but it is what happens.

 

I did say 'most'. And many people are not happy about brokerages just handing out keys.

 

The truth is, let's be honest, that for a marina it is some handy extra income in many cases for not doing much more than sticking a notice in the office window.

 

That may be how some marina-based brokerages operate, but I would suggest that the more successful ones do a bit more than that on behalf of their clients.

[carlt]

Is a boat licence a contract?

I'm not sure, what do you think?

QUOTE (mayalld @ Sep 17 2009, 01:01 PM)

 

The licence conditions are a contractual matter, and breach of them is a matter of contract law.

 

The bye-laws are criminal law, and breach can lead to a fine.

 

There is no need to cover anything in both areas, and if the licence conditions are at odds with the bye-laws the bye-laws prevail.

 

So, if you run your engine at 9pm they can revoke your licence etc etc. If you wash your dog in the canal they can take you in front of a magistrate.

[alan_fincher]

That is certainly not the case. There are two very well known brokerages in my vicinity where they simply hand over keys - often several sets at a time to anyone who asks. I'm not criticising that practice although I wouldn't do it that way; but it is what happens.

 

Not a great way of selling something worth so much money to someone who may not know exactly what they are looking at.

When we bought Chalice, we visited a number of brokerages, including (multiple times) at least one of the ones Dominic is referring to.

 

Several of these were the then best known / largest.

 

At no point, (not once), did any of the brokers or their staff get involved in going to the boats with us.

 

May not be the best way of doing it in some eyes, (although we were very happy with such an arrangement), but that is the strong reality of how perhaps the majority operate, (and of course, I accept, some are totally different - just we never ended up at them).

 

The only difference we found was that some would restrict you to just one set of keys, whereas others would hand you half a dozen all in one go. I turned up at one of the big ones, on a mountain bike, in cycle gear, splattered in towpath mud. Without any proof of my identity, I had no problem getting a whole stack of keys from them, many of which were for boats with owners personal possessions still aboard. I was surprised, but that's how it happens, (and we are talking just about the biggest brokerage, here).

 

I'd not want to sell a boat through one of these brokers, but if you want to start opening cupboards, peering in engine holes, listing floors, etc, you feel a lot less inhibited with nobody standing over you!

 

Oddest at the time, in my view was Braunston Marina, where the lady in the office seemed to think it was her role to decide which boats you should be looking at, and that it was not your role to select from their list. Other people speak highly of them, but we wouldn't have rushed back.

[Naughty Cal]

The brokerage in our marina must be slightly different then in the fact that they never let you view the boats unaccomanied. I dont think this is a bad thing it is nice to be able to ask relevant questions about the vessel and still be able to have a good poke around. You just have to put away any fears of appearing rude by lifting engine covers or looking in cupboards.

[Laurie Booth]

"It is up to you whether you sign"....

 

Well, no it isn't, not if you want a mooring.

 

When an overwhelming majority of mooring suppliers start to impose conditions regarding selling your boat, you don't actually have that many options!

 

The fact that the market can allow such conditions to arise is the reason for unfair contract terms legislation.

Well said.

[Dominic M]

That may be how some marina-based brokerages operate, but I would suggest that the more successful ones do a bit more than that on behalf of their clients.

In which case why would they not be happy to compete for business in an open free market? Brokerage A may be fantastic but that does not mean someone should be obliged as part of their mooring conditions to use it. That is the real point of Jim Shead's complaint, or certainly a substantial part of it. And the idea that people are free to choose, as put very well by Dave Mayall, is fantasy land because most marinas have those conditions in their agreements. So there is little or no choice.

 

I would also add that those marinas that do not have an on site brokerage service frequently have a nominated broker that their moorers must use. I won't deny that I benefit from this on occasion too, but I would be happier with an open market. It would be a lot more fun for one thing.

[Nine of Hearts]

In which case why would they not be happy to compete for business in an open free market? Brokerage A may be fantastic but that does not mean someone should be obliged as part of their mooring conditions to use it. That is the real point of Jim Shead's complaint, or certainly a substantial part of it. And the idea that people are free to choose, as put very well by Dave Mayall, is fantasy land because most marinas have those conditions in their agreements. So there is little or no choice.

 

I would also add that those marinas that do not have an on site brokerage service frequently have a nominated broker that their moorers must use. I won't deny that I benefit from this on occasion too, but I would be happier with an open market. It would be a lot more fun for one thing.

 

I would also imagine that those who are espousing the "you can pick and choose your mooring" philosophy would just as quickly condemn anyone as irresponsible who bought a boat and then found themselves wanting a mooring and in breach of their licence conditions. When I last looked moorings were a little hard to come by, and "you can always find one somehere" led to my initial mooring being 25 miles away and extortionately priced. It was the only berth available in a 50 mile circle. Have moorings suddenly become more freely available while I wasn't looking?

 

My parents were put under a similar restriction when selling their static caravan. However, for caravan owners it is not a condition of owning a caravan that it has to be on an official site, so it could be argued that they did have a choice. It is not the same for boats where BW require you to have a mooring, which the unscrupulous are then entailing with other restrictive caveats.

[Naughty Cal]

No one said the mooring would be close by.

 

Ours is 50 miles from our house

[carlt]

My parents were put under a similar restriction when selling their static caravan. However, for caravan owners it is not a condition of owning a caravan that it has to be on an official site, so it could be argued that they did have a choice. It is not the same for boats where BW require you to have a mooring, which the unscrupulous are then entailing with other restrictive caveats.

BW don't require you to have a mooring, as long as you move every 14 days, or off BW waters.

 

Park your static on the Public Highway, and see if it's still there, 14 days later.

[mayalld]

I'm not sure, what do you think?

 

Well exactly!

 

You haven't seen them to be contracts up until now, so it is curious that you should suddenly see them as such.