The perils of buying used.....

[Guest]

A lot has been said on here about the dangers of buying new....and the risks of losing at best your deposit at worst a big part of your total boat payment.

 

These issues have pushed me towards buying used as a way of insuring against losing big wedges of money.... however.

 

Consider the following:-

 

 

- We buy a boat from a seemingly sound private buyer. He/she has all documentation including original purchase receipts, invoices for repairs and servicing all ID's match and given there is no registered keeper system for boats we buy. 2 months later we get a letter from a solicitor advising the boat we've purchased is involved in a divorce disagreement and is the rightful owner of his or her client.....

 

- we purchase a boat from person A with all the docs supplies as above only to discover that person A sold the boat when it was not his right to do so as he stole all the documentation and keys when he was staying with his elderly relative who has since died in a nursing home and now his solicitor is collating details on his estate. Mysteriously person A who we paid in good faith has since long gone.

 

I don't for one minute diminish the trauma of losing large amounts of cash and capital spent with a builder who goes bust before they deliver the goods... but is buying used really a safer option.....??

[Madmark62]

No sale can ever be totally saferegarding boats, as you say buying new - risk of builder going under etc.

Buying a pre-owned boat you could have the scene you discribe, but I would think it was a very long shot that such a scenario could happen,but I know it has in the past.

[Gibbo]

Just a thought. As there is no registered keeper thingy with boats this is always going to be a risk. Could it be insured against? They seem to offer insurance against every other risk going including abduction by alients and being hit by a meteorite.

 

Gibbo

[Guest]

No sale can ever be totally saferegarding boats, as you say buying new - risk of builder going under etc.

Buying a pre-owned boat you could have the scene you discribe, but I would think it was a very long shot that such a scenario could happen,but I know it has in the past.

 

What promoted this was an enquiry about a boat through Apollo Duck's web site.

 

The enquiry I made was to a male name - the reply came back via. an email address which was female. got me thinking why would somebody use somebody else's email address to

reply??

[Liam]

When I bought my current boat, and also when my parents bought their current boat, the "receipt" said something along the lines of sold as seen and free from any debts etc, such as what the OP states.

 

Would this actually stand up in court, though?

[blackrose]

A lot has been said on here about the dangers of buying new....and the risks of losing at best your deposit at worst a big part of your total boat payment.

 

These issues have pushed me towards buying used as a way of insuring against losing big wedges of money.... however.

 

Consider the following:-

 

 

- We buy a boat from a seemingly sound private buyer. He/she has all documentation including original purchase receipts, invoices for repairs and servicing all ID's match and given there is no registered keeper system for boats we buy. 2 months later we get a letter from a solicitor advising the boat we've purchased is involved in a divorce disagreement and is the rightful owner of his or her client.....

 

- we purchase a boat from person A with all the docs supplies as above only to discover that person A sold the boat when it was not his right to do so as he stole all the documentation and keys when he was staying with his elderly relative who has since died in a nursing home and now his solicitor is collating details on his estate. Mysteriously person A who we paid in good faith has since long gone.

 

I don't for one minute diminish the trauma of losing large amounts of cash and capital spent with a builder who goes bust before they deliver the goods... but is buying used really a safer option.....??

 

Yes (probably)

 

I'm sure that the scenarios you have described have happened, but I'm also sure they're pretty rare - certainly rarer than the numerous examples of buyers who have lost money to builders gone bust.

 

You've got to use some common sense and some intuition. You can generally tell if someone is shady or a genuine vendor. On the other hand if you do go for a new build minimise the risk - as well as a reputable firm who are members of the relevant professional bodies, go for a builder with a quick lead time. My builder built my boat in 3 months - apart from £1000 to book the build slot, that's just 3 months from when I started paying to when I collected my boat!

[soldthehouse]

When I bought my current boat, and also when my parents bought their current boat, the "receipt" said something along the lines of sold as seen and free from any debts etc, such as what the OP states.

 

Would this actually stand up in court, though?

The free of any debts bit refers to debts and incumbences owing by the boat ie mooring fees unpaid repair bills waterway fees etc that the previous owner may have incurred and failed to settle at the time of disposal

Edited September 2, 2009 by soldthehouse

[Dominic M]

A lot has been said on here about the dangers of buying new....and the risks of losing at best your deposit at worst a big part of your total boat payment.

 

These issues have pushed me towards buying used as a way of insuring against losing big wedges of money.... however.

 

Consider the following:-

 

 

- We buy a boat from a seemingly sound private buyer. He/she has all documentation including original purchase receipts, invoices for repairs and servicing all ID's match and given there is no registered keeper system for boats we buy. 2 months later we get a letter from a solicitor advising the boat we've purchased is involved in a divorce disagreement and is the rightful owner of his or her client.....

 

- we purchase a boat from person A with all the docs supplies as above only to discover that person A sold the boat when it was not his right to do so as he stole all the documentation and keys when he was staying with his elderly relative who has since died in a nursing home and now his solicitor is collating details on his estate. Mysteriously person A who we paid in good faith has since long gone.

 

I don't for one minute diminish the trauma of losing large amounts of cash and capital spent with a builder who goes bust before they deliver the goods... but is buying used really a safer option.....??

I'm not sure what constitutes a "seemingly sound private buyer".

 

The "original purchase receipts" should be, indeed must be (unless the boat cost less than the annual VAT registration limit and that was the only build in that year) a VAT invoice from the builder to the buyer. If that buyer is the ONLY person named on the invoice, which must be for the whole amount of the boat purchase, then that person can be reasonably assumed to be the whole owner.

 

Your second example suggests that the vendor has supplied all documents. If his or her name is not on these documents, or is in conjunction with others, then ask questions. If it is subject to probate then ask for the solicitor's contact details to verify the legitimacy of the vendor.

 

Dominic

[churchward]

When I bought my current boat, and also when my parents bought their current boat, the "receipt" said something along the lines of sold as seen and free from any debts etc, such as what the OP states.

 

Would this actually stand up in court, though?

Not really if the seller was lying. You cannot gain title to anything if the person who sold it to you didn't own it in the first place no matter what was signed and what it said.

[Liam]

I should just confirm that the receipt given with the sale of the both was from two different but well known brokers and not via a private sale.

[churchward]

I'm not sure what constitutes a "seemingly sound private buyer".

 

The "original purchase receipts" should be, indeed must be (unless the boat cost less than the annual VAT registration limit and that was the only build in that year) a VAT invoice from the builder to the buyer. If that buyer is the ONLY person named on the invoice, which must be for the whole amount of the boat purchase, then that person can be reasonably assumed to be the whole owner.

 

Your second example suggests that the vendor has supplied all documents. If his or her name is not on these documents, or is in conjunction with others, then ask questions. If it is subject to probate then ask for the solicitor's contact details to verify the legitimacy of the vendor.

 

Dominic

As Dominic says the scenarios are avoidable or at least unlikely to occur.

 

One way to help to be sure is go through a reputable broker. They will have earned their money by making sure that things like proper title to the boat and any HP has been established before they sell it. Some folk don't like brokers I guess but good ones can help prevent the problems described.

 

By the way Dominic how are you settling into Stowe Hill now, all going well I trust?

[Dominic M]

When I bought my current boat, and also when my parents bought their current boat, the "receipt" said something along the lines of sold as seen and free from any debts etc, such as what the OP states.

 

Would this actually stand up in court, though?

You should have been given a proper Bill of Sale. Weren't you? The person or persons signing that would be committing criminal fraud if they had no right to do so. And the broker would possibly be liable too, for failing to ascertain ownership as far as was reasonably possible.

[mick1964]

What promoted this was an enquiry about a boat through Apollo Duck's web site.

 

The enquiry I made was to a male name - the reply came back via. an email address which was female. got me thinking why would somebody use somebody else's email address to

reply??

hi mjg, was the boat compass rose ? if it was, we asked the same questions, the price was too good to be true

[Guest]

hi mjg, was the boat compass rose ? if it was, we asked the same questions, the price was too good to be true

Hi -

 

no it was a different boat.

 

The moral of something being 'too good to be true' is that it often is

so beware.

 

(I speak as someone who once got their fingers burnt on eBay many years ago - though not with a boat.)

[dacaB]

What an interesting thread and written in words of one syllable I think I can understand

 

However, if there is no registered owners 'papers' what documentation would the solicitor have to prove the boat belonged to a relative.

 

If such 'papers' exsist why don't you all have them.

 

 

 

- we purchase a boat from person A with all the docs supplies as above only to discover that person A sold the boat when it was not his right to do so as he stole all the documentation and keys when he was staying with his elderly relative who has since died in a nursing home and now his solicitor is collating details on his estate. Mysteriously person A who we paid in good faith has since long gone.

 

 

Curious only.........not intending to open a 'tin of worms'

[Chertsey]

What promoted this was an enquiry about a boat through Apollo Duck's web site.

 

The enquiry I made was to a male name - the reply came back via. an email address which was female. got me thinking why would somebody use somebody else's email address to

reply??

People very often use other people's emails. Some people still don't have one of their own and use their partner's. Why would a crook use someone else's traceable email address when in five minutes he could set up a Hotmail address (or no doubt if in the know one that was even less traceable) in any name he chose?

 

Obviously there are no guarantees, and it would be interesting to hear whether anyone actually has lost money this way.

 

However, one key point which I think no one has mentioned, is that with a second hand boat even if the worst happened, it is likely to be a smaller amount of money.

[sociable_hermit]

I'm still slightly annoyed by my own stupidity in once signing a "sold as seen" document when I went to collect a car sold on eBay. It should, of course, have said "sold as described" as the written description on eBay is binding.

 

I'm not sure where one stands with the wording of a private advert, but I'd take a similar view. If anything about the item doesn't line up with the blurb, the sale is off and that's that. "Sold as seen" is a dubious phrase as it gives the seller permission to lie through their teeth, if necessary, to get the sale.

[churchward]

People very often use other people's emails. Some people still don't have one of their own and use their partner's. Why would a crook use someone else's traceable email address when in five minutes he could set up a Hotmail address (or no doubt if in the know one that was even less traceable) in any name he chose?

 

Obviously there are no guarantees, and it would be interesting to hear whether anyone actually has lost money this way.

 

However, one key point which I think no one has mentioned, is that with a second hand boat even if the worst happened, it is likely to be a smaller amount of money.

The amount of money can be relative to how much the people can or can't afford to lose though. For example I think it is the same thing if someone spends all their savings on a new boat costing £80K or if another spends all their savings on a £40K second hand boat. If for some reason they both lose all their money and the boat I think the impact on the individuals is likely to be the same as they have both lost everything and may have taken as much sacrifice to accumulate both sets of savings.

 

Still, I do think that based on anecdotal evidence that one is less likely to come unstuck secondhand particularly if you go through a good broker.

[Guest]

The amount of money can be relative to how much the people can or can't afford to lose though. For example I think it is the same thing if someone spends all their savings on a new boat costing £80K or if another spends all their savings on a £40K second hand boat. If for some reason they both lose all their money and the boat I think the impact on the individuals is likely to be the same as they have both lost everything and may have taken as much sacrifice to accumulate both sets of savings.

 

Still, I do think that based on anecdotal evidence that one is less likely to come unstuck secondhand particularly if you go through a good broker.

 

I agree, everything is relative losing £40k would certainly hit me pretty bad.

 

 

 

 

I think you've all provided a good degree of re-assurance espec. if a reputable broker is used.

 

Thanks for the input everybody

[mick1964]

where do you stand if the boat has outstanding finance on it ? is it like a car, where its not yours to sell until the loan is repaid ? can the boat be taken off the new " owner"

[carlt]

where do you stand if the boat has outstanding finance on it ? is it like a car, where its not yours to sell until the loan is repaid ? can the boat be taken off the new " owner"

It would depend on whether the loan is secured against the boat, or not.

 

I'm not aware of any HP type boat finance packages, where you don't actually own the boat, until it's paid for, but they may be out there.

[alan_fincher]

However, one key point which I think no one has mentioned, is that with a second hand boat even if the worst happened, it is likely to be a smaller amount of money.

Yes, if talking of the total cost of a boat.

 

Whilst people who have been trying to buy new have sometimes lost the total cost of a boat, (or at least everything paid to date), it is fair to say that what has also happened sometimes is they have managed to gain title to much of what does exist, and carry on the build elsewhere. The forum's own "Pav" was the obvious example at Severn Valley Boatbuilders, but I think the same happened at Heron, didn't it. Obviously some very big losses still incurred, (and mega-stres), but not always "lost everything".

 

Admittedly if you are making stage payments for a boat you are being led to believe is part completed in Morocco, but your actual boat doesn't exist at all, then your loss is likely to be total.

 

Personally that doesn't change my view, and I'd never have a boat built in the current climate, (even if I could afford!).

 

I know many hate brokers, and there are some appalling ones around, but it seems more or less inevitable to me that if you go the Apollo Duck or e-Bay route that whilst you ought to be lucky, and get a more keenly priced boat, you must surely be more at risk than if you use a broker that is well thought of by many past customers ?

 

It depends on your assessments of risk, and attitudes to it, I'd say.

[Guest]

Wise words...cheers Alan.

[boots]

Is any one willing to share any 'good broker' stories?

Edited September 4, 2009 by boots