Hire Companies Responsibility

[Ray T]

Sorry if this is going over old ground but me and the Missus T spent 2 hours yesterday morning and a further 2 hours in the evening tutoring new hirers on the basics of boat handling, safety and working locks. Each family said at the end of the "lesson" that they had learned more from us than they got from the hirer. It was so bad with one company letting out people (some who apparently didn't speak english) that owners were seen to scatter in all directions for their own safety. One of the hirers got his trouser leg caught in the throttle and went full tilt into the bushes opposite the towpath.

 

Until we bought Froggy a few months ago we were hirers with one of the companies involved so it was surprising to see how lax the instruction appears to be, especially with recent events at Cropredy. I appreciate there is a responsibility attached to the hirers but we were told that they were being shuttled out as quick as possible.

 

Another hire company was so concerned at the level of incompetence they tried to phone the other company to tell them the hirers were a serious danger. The Missus got on this hire boat (as they had blocked the canal) and then we tutored them through 3 locks. We also got them safely moored up for the night. At some point there will be a further serious incident and H & S will have a field day to the detriment of all of us.

 

We have all had to start somewhere and to give the opposite point of view, we have found in the past that Wyvern, Shire, Kate Boats and Calcutt Boats do good, elementary practical training with staff on board before letting them or us loose on the cut. It's not a general whinge against hire companies, just some who want to take note as to what happens just beyond their boatyard.

[Guest]

We have all had to start somewhere and to give the opposite point of view, we have found in the past that Wyvern, Shire, Kate Boats and Calcutt Boats do good, elementary practical training with staff on board before letting them or us loose on the cut. It's not a general whinge against hire companies, just some who want to take note as to what happens just beyond their boatyard.

 

I in no way disagree with what you say but don't recent events at Croperdy also show that no matter how good the tuition (the boat involved being hired from a yard you've cited as giving good tuition) tragic accidents/incidents can still happen.

 

I think the problem relates to the time (2 hours) you cite in your post, I can't imagine yards being staffed to give that level of tuition on handover day or if they were they would probably price themselves out of a very competitive market. No doubt some people would say they were prepared to pay a premium but I reckon most wouldn't.

[Phil Ambrose]

Sorry if this is going over old ground but me and the Missus T spent 2 hours yesterday morning and a further 2 hours in the evening tutoring new hirers on the basics of boat handling, safety and working locks. Each family said at the end of the "lesson" that they had learned more from us than they got from the hirer. It was so bad with one company letting out people (some who apparently didn't speak english) that owners were seen to scatter in all directions for their own safety. One of the hirers got his trouser leg caught in the throttle and went full tilt into the bushes opposite the towpath.

 

Until we bought Froggy a few months ago we were hirers with one of the companies involved so it was surprising to see how lax the instruction appears to be, especially with recent events at Cropredy. I appreciate there is a responsibility attached to the hirers but we were told that they were being shuttled out as quick as possible.

 

Another hire company was so concerned at the level of incompetence they tried to phone the other company to tell them the hirers were a serious danger. The Missus got on this hire boat (as they had blocked the canal) and then we tutored them through 3 locks. We also got them safely moored up for the night. At some point there will be a further serious incident and H & S will have a field day to the detriment of all of us.

 

We have all had to start somewhere and to give the opposite point of view, we have found in the past that Wyvern, Shire, Kate Boats and Calcutt Boats do good, elementary practical training with staff on board before letting them or us loose on the cut. It's not a general whinge against hire companies, just some who want to take note as to what happens just beyond their boatyard.

 

I would agree that some Companies are so anxious to turn boats round that instruction is limited to "This is how you start it, this is how you stop it, and use full throttle when tuning" or so I have been told by hirers when I have had to help them out of trouble.

 

Phil

[Ray T]

The 2 hours quoted included getting the two hirers concerned through 3 lock sets at busy periods. We had them side by side with us so as well as lock work we could discuss boat handling techniques.

[Guest]

The 2 hours quoted included getting the two hirers concerned through 3 lock sets at busy periods. We had them side by side with us so as well as lock work we could discuss boat handling techniques.

 

A lot also I guess will depend on the yard's proximity to a lock.

 

Snaygill boats at Skipton used to (and possibly still do) let you ring them on your first morning and they would meet you and take you through Holme house Bridge lock the first one west from their yard (And only 10 mins by car).

 

We are going from Silsden Boats on Saturday who are a fair bit away by boat from the same lock so it will be interesting to see what we get offered. That said we are not complete novices and I've been talkiing through the process with the 'crew' this week and they seem pretty able to correctly recall the technique.

 

Watching some clips on youtube which purport to show the correct technique has been fun too this weekend - some are clearly NOT the way to negotiate a lock......

[alan_fincher]

I was disappointed as we were on the water point at Gayton Junction to see two different sets of Alvechurch hirers setting off with instructors, but in each case the instructor effectively made the turn onto the mainline, taking the tiller, and controlling the throttle.

 

This is one of the biggest, widest junctions around, and in my view they should talk the hirer through it, and only take control if they fear a disaster, (unlikely at that point).

 

As it was the same crew on one boat that we caught 30 to 40 minutes trying to crawl through Blisworth, I can hardly have a go, given what the level of instruction appeared to be.

 

Several of the crews moored at Stoke Bruerne overnight had the good sense to walk down to the top lock before trying to boat through it, and at least one asked Cath if they minded her explaining what she was doing, and why, so they had a chance of getting it right. All credit to them, but leaves me thinking Alvechurch are not doing enough.

 

We have had several instances of hire crews turning locks on us, even though we are already most of the way through the next lock in the flight. All have said they have not been told not to, and assumed if you got there first, you ready it for yourself, even if you can see another boat coming. We have been patient throughout, and most seem willing to be taught extra things, but I know when I once worked for a hire company, all these things were explained before we let people off on their own. A shame they are not now, really.

 

Mind you we had a very nice couple of owner boaters try to turn a lock on us this morning. They had no idea why we were sounding horn as we approached, and they closed top gates and drew bottom paddles. They said nobody had ever suggested to them before that it is sensible to wait for the approaching boat, as it takes far longer to empty lock twice, and refill it once, than just the one emptying. They said they understood now, but they had never encountered it before..... :lol: (I can only assume they have spent most of their boating life on the Ashby ?).

[Dawnie]

Our boat used to be moored at Silsden. As we were shared Ownership, no instruction was expected. In the shop though, as it was a hire base for several companies at that time, there was a wooden working model of a lock, apparently this was the instruction. It was so small barbie would have looked like a giant! The L&L though has to be one of my favourite canals.

[ThePiglet]

My first hire was with my parents from Silsden about 12 years ago maybe. They had the little model lock back then and I think a video. Even though I was about 14, I remember being impressed with the training and general customer service from the base.

The only down side was that the bog on Alacrity, the boat we hired, stank after a fortnight. It suffered from a poor pumpout at the end of week 1 (thirdparty yard).

[Ray T]

Several of the crews moored at Stoke Bruerne overnight had the good sense to walk down to the top lock before trying to boat through it, and at least one asked Cath if they minded her explaining what she was doing, and why, so they had a chance of getting it right. All credit to them, but leaves me thinking Alvechurch are not doing enough.

We strongly advised the two crews we helped to moor up safely at the next lock and go to watch how it is done before attempting it themselves, if necessary in a double lock to ask to pair up with another boat and ask for advice.

Mrs T

[gbmud]

Our first week on a hire boat was two years ago with Canaltime from Sawley Marina on the Trent. We were shown how a lock works with the little model (plenty big enough to understand), and shown a video about lock safety IIRC. We were then supervised as far as our first lock and observed working through it before being sent off alone for the week. There were no problems as I already knew how a lock worked and what needed to be done.

 

We have recently returned from our second week as hire boaters. We hired a Canaltime boat collected from Alvechurch boats in Alvechurch. We were asked if we had been before and when I said we had done, a couple of years ago, we were sent on our way with no further training or supervision offered. I did see another group of hirers get about 500m of training on the cut but there are no locks close enough to the Alvechurch boatyard so I guess that they were shown the video and lock demonstration.

 

It is clear to me, both from personal observation and from those accounts on sites like this, that some hirers, first time or not, need more tuition than others.

 

I am sure that I/we have a lot to learn about lock safety and technique but I think that right from day one we were reasonably competent, confident and safe. That is my opinion anyway.

 

Chris

Edited August 16, 2009 by gbmud

[AliG]

We have been hiring boats for years, in the last few years we have had boats from Anglo Welsh, Black Prince and Middlewich, all have been really thorough on the H&S handover of how the boat works, engine maintenance and operation of the boat, and have took us through the first lock to make sure we knew what we were doing, but all had locks fairly close , even though we had said we had hired before, but we usually hire outside school holidays.

 

However after two weeks out in July we did get fairly amazed at how many people (hirers and owners) that really have no idea, usually about emptying locks as you are approaching or the best this year was the staircase at Bunbury, two owners (one who admitted to having moorings fairly close) with no idea that three boats can use the locks at once and one refusing to come in as we were coming up, opting instead to wait for an empty lock, despite me explaining how the locks work and them studying the explanation boards in great detail!

 

Ali

[MoominPapa]

At least most of the weekly-hirers have time to learn in the end, even if it's the hard way. The boats you really need to look out for are the day-hires. Having T-boned one who turned across us at the last minute on the GU below Braunston, the guy at the tiller really had no idea what he was doing, or what he had done wrong.

 

MP.

[mrsmelly]

Sorry if this is going over old ground but me and the Missus T spent 2 hours yesterday morning and a further 2 hours in the evening tutoring new hirers on the basics of boat handling, safety and working locks. Each family said at the end of the "lesson" that they had learned more from us than they got from the hirer. It was so bad with one company letting out people (some who apparently didn't speak english) that owners were seen to scatter in all directions for their own safety. One of the hirers got his trouser leg caught in the throttle and went full tilt into the bushes opposite the towpath.

 

Until we bought Froggy a few months ago we were hirers with one of the companies involved so it was surprising to see how lax the instruction appears to be, especially with recent events at Cropredy. I appreciate there is a responsibility attached to the hirers but we were told that they were being shuttled out as quick as possible.

 

Another hire company was so concerned at the level of incompetence they tried to phone the other company to tell them the hirers were a serious danger. The Missus got on this hire boat (as they had blocked the canal) and then we tutored them through 3 locks. We also got them safely moored up for the night. At some point there will be a further serious incident and H & S will have a field day to the detriment of all of us.

 

We have all had to start somewhere and to give the opposite point of view, we have found in the past that Wyvern, Shire, Kate Boats and Calcutt Boats do good, elementary practical training with staff on board before letting them or us loose on the cut. It's not a general whinge against hire companies, just some who want to take note as to what happens just beyond their boatyard.

 

Hi

 

I will be on the Thames again tomorrow doing showrounds and tuition for people who are taking our boats out. We pride ourselves in the standard of our showrounds and tuition and seasoned hirers often state we are better than most. However it is not possible for me to impart my boating experience of 35 years on a novice and beleive me many hirers having paid out their money have no intention of letting me and my staff show them round for the several hours we would like. They want to get off a.s.a.p on their jollies. Also you want to try giving tuition to parents with their uncontrolable kids onboard !

In this business we are all too aware of the safety issues and of the EXTREMELY rare cases of fatal accident as you mentioned tragic as it was.

I think on the whole myself and very nearly all other hire bases do a damn good job in the time slot available, pm me and I will take you along and u can see for yourself what is realy involved on turnround days.

 

Regards

 

Tim

[Ray T]

Hi

 

I will be on the Thames again tomorrow doing showrounds and tuition for people who are taking our boats out. We pride ourselves in the standard of our showrounds and tuition and seasoned hirers often state we are better than most. However it is not possible for me to impart my boating experience of 35 years on a novice and beleive me many hirers having paid out their money have no intention of letting me and my staff show them round for the several hours we would like. They want to get off a.s.a.p on their jollies. Also you want to try giving tuition to parents with their uncontrolable kids onboard !

In this business we are all too aware of the safety issues and of the EXTREMELY rare cases of fatal accident as you mentioned tragic as it was.

I think on the whole myself and very nearly all other hire bases do a damn good job in the time slot available, pm me and I will take you along and u can see for yourself what is realy involved on turnround days.

 

Regards

 

Tim

Thanks for the reply. We would like to take you up on this and will pm you tomorrow. The Missus especially would like to see it from the hirers point of view as she was probably over emphasising some points and under emphasising others.

[mrsmelly]

Thanks for the reply. We would like to take you up on this and will pm you tomorrow. The Missus especially would like to see it from the hirers point of view as she was probably over emphasising some points and under emphasising others.

 

Great

 

Speak to you soon..

[Teakbank12]

At least most of the weekly-hirers have time to learn in the end, even if it's the hard way. The boats you really need to look out for are the day-hires. Having T-boned one who turned across us at the last minute on the GU below Braunston, the guy at the tiller really had no idea what he was doing, or what he had done wrong.

 

MP.

 

Ah yes dayboats....if anyone witnessed the carnage at Newbold last evening when a dayboat came past us from the bridge at full throttle, glanced off our front & head first into a families boat moored in front of us:(

The father quite rightly went berserk F in n B ing at the group onboard.

I watched in slow motion as they hit them it was not at all funny.

Luckily no one was hurt only boats scraped/damaged & we suggested they phone the company which they did.

The reply was the hirers were hours overdue & had already lost their deposit. Probably why they were racing back to base!!

[Ray T]

This boat perhaps?

Was it was a day hire boat from a yard not a million miles from the GU?

 

I lost count at 12 on board, there were 7 on the roof. I phoned the yard concerned and let them

know that I thought the boat was overloaded.

Edited August 17, 2009 by Ray T

[dizzyknits]

we have owned our boat for just over two years, and i know we don't get out as much as we should, but this year we went up to skipton and we felt really confident and handled the boat accordingly, goodness knows how first time hirers manage......the day boats were bad enough when we were out......

 

......is it compulsory to dress as a pirate?????? :lol:

[Phil Ambrose]

we have owned our boat for just over two years, and i know we don't get out as much as we should, but this year we went up to skipton and we felt really confident and handled the boat accordingly, goodness knows how first time hirers manage......the day boats were bad enough when we were out......

 

......is it compulsory to dress as a pirate?????? :lol:

 

You want pirates? get yourself down to the Broads, it's national dress down here!

[Guest]

I find all this thread very interesting, and I am in no way complacent.

 

Our first time in the L&L was in October 2006.

 

After Snaygill Boats had shown us how to lock through Holme Bridge Lock we were on our own.....

 

That is until we were caught up by a live-a-board boat at the next lock with a couple aboard happy for us to lock them through alongside until we were through Bank Newton.

 

The only bit of advice offered (once only) was to my 17 year old (at the time) daughter to coil her ropes before she threw them to the crew up on the lock side as we ascended. She'd forgotten.

 

Beyond that nothing.... here's hoping for the same next week.

[Naughty Cal]

Before buying Cal we had always hired on the broads. We always hired from the same company at least once a year so became very good friends with the owners and staff at the yard. We had a very thorough hand over the first time we hired but the subsequent times we had no hand over at all. It was a case of here are the keys the boat is in the yard somewhere. They knew we could handle the boats and would ask if we had any questions. As we all know there are no locks that hire craft can navigate through on the broads. So the first time we take Cal out (on the day of the handover) within half an hour we have got to the Glory Hole (for those of you that dont know it, its a building straddling the Witham, narrowing the channel and Cal just fits through with the hood up) which was a close encounter and then a couple of minutes later we encounter our first lock. It wasnt a pretty experience and it didnt look proffessional however we made it through in one piece, no injuries, no disasters and have since mastered the technique of locking Cal through. Again not always an easy task. Most locks are not designed with a 25ft boat in mind and you never get bollards or sliders where you need them.

 

Anyway im rambling. The point was, everybody ha to start somewhere, it isnt just hire boaters that get locks wrong. Everybody has to learn and there is really only one way to do that.

[Grace and Favour]

Well, we'll be starting this year's fortnight of holiday bliss in an Alvechurch boat from Gayton in a few weeks, and will be pleased to recount our experience of pre-departure training when we return.

 

We're far from experienced boaters, having only had three holidays to date, which places us firmly in the 'Novices' (novii? ) fraternity, though I strive to follow correct procedures . . particularly when aiming several tonnes of someone else's boat

 

Certainly our few, brief previous sojourns into the twilight world of narrowboating has us absolutely determined to join (full-time) the Morso-tempered Nanni state, but I must say that our past experience of pre-departure training have been . . (let me be generous) completely un-inspiring, and it's clear that unless the hirer is totally alert, focussed and unhurried, then the trainer will struggle to school them to the required level (as is often all too obvious when you look at some of the antics on the cut)

 

I look forward to meeting some of you shortly - -

Edited August 18, 2009 by Grace & Favour

[Tiny]

Obviously it depends on the base how much instruction you get as a hirer before being let out on the world. I can think of a few whose training is strange to say the least.

 

One lot - who seem to specialise is 'watch out it's one of them' boats and crews actually hit us when the instructor was driving . He was explaining that it was OK to turn using another boat as a fulcrum to get you out of trouble (this turn being on a straight wide bit of canal where we were moored with us being used as a demo...

 

Another base - on a river with the first lock into a canal some way off -actually had a man to instruct at the lock - or so we assumed. In fact he checked the lock worked (BW man he was) then left as it was near 4pm. The first boat arrived at 5 and watching the chaos we went and helped some of those who did not know everything (as some maintained they did). The ones we helped found out about centre ropes (some were too short) and paddle safety pawls and all the rest. Some of the others who wanted no help as (we presume) they had got full instruction at the yard, were managing every H&S danger in the book.

 

Of course no amount of instruction can overcome the odd mad crews desire to endanger all. As others have said dayboats are one thing to avoid. Some are good but... As one yard owner told me. ' The Dayboats get crews - we tell them how the boat works, recommend some pubs and wave them goodbye. Once they go round the corner we don't care what happens to them - it just isn't worth it to worry.'

[Tiller Slave]

Hire Boat Companies - day and weekly- on BW canals and rivers, must have an independent audited "handover", to check that they are explaining to all hirers the basics.

 

This is the Term and Conditions from BW: see 11 d

 

"11. Each time you allow any person to use the Boat you must ensure that they are capable of using it safely. To meet this obligation you should:

 

(a) Provide adequate and appropriate coaching in:

 

(i) safe methods of navigating the Waterway including operating locks;

 

(ii) the operation and care of the Boat and its equipment (including safety equipment).

 

( Provide on the Boat, and draw attention to:

 

(i) the Boater's Handbook. You are strongly recommended to make this or similar material available to users of the Boat before they arrive;

 

(ii) at least two copies of British Waterways' visitor incident report forms;

 

(iii) other relevant publications about the local waterway;

 

(iv) emergency contact details.

 

© Offer to all passengers and users of the Boat free use of properly maintained buoyancy aids or lifejackets.

 

(d) Be able to provide evidence that you have proper systems in place to ensure consistent compliance with these Conditions. We will accept a current British Marine Federation Handover Audit Certificate as this evidence. We may ask you from time to time to produce this evidence. It is not required as part of the licence application process.

 

You are recommended to maintain a log of all breakdown or emergency calls."

 

 

The handover audit scheme is run by the British Marine Federation- (who send out inspectors) and was developed with the MCA- Marine Coastguard Agency-, see here for details

 

http://www.britishmarine.co.uk/what_we_do/..._programme.aspx

 

The MCA Hire Boat Code, which will shortly become compulsory on all navigations and hire boat companies, makes the Handover Audit compulsory.

[Rose Narrowboats]

A couple of other aspects to this which haven't been mentioned:

 

The customers attention span. I would argue that a comprehensive and concise tuition, interspersed with some humour, and the odd "threat" ("pay attention or we'll have to go through all of this again" works well!) is of more value than three hours when the customers eyes have glazed over in the first 10 minutes. We have a policy of one member of staff per boat that is going out that day and they stay with the customer until they are confident the hirer is as well prepared as possible.

 

The other problem we find is that some people are so mad keen to get going that they are nodding enthusiastically and pretending they understand just to get going on their holiday. If we believed them, only when they got round the corner would they suddenly wish they had listened! If we are suspicious, we'll have a little quiz before setting off on the practical part of the tuition - which lasts as long as necessary. The current record is Newbold!

 

We're signed up to the Considerate Boater website, and encourage all our hirers to have a good read of that as well as the BW produced DVD and boater's handbook.

 

I happen to live alongside the GU, and have some moorings there. On the whole, more hireboats now seem to slow down past moored boats these days. than privately owned boats. Obviously I keep an eye out for ours, and I'm proud to say that I've only had to remonstrate with one in three years - hopefully we get the rest of the handover across as successfully. Que the horror stories about speeding red & green boats.........

 

As an aside, if any of ours are misbehaving (and I'm there will be some), we DO want to know - that's our reputation they're ruining, and I can do that on my own.