Paying for red diesel

[Jon57]

10 minutes ago, haggis said:

I don't think we do but we are keeping quiet about it 🙂 . I have heard on the grapevine that some suppliers are quite happy with zero propulsion for any boats but I couldn't possibly comment on that ! 

If the origin poster is not on a residential mooring. Best not to kick up a fuss. Either pay the 60/40 or get it in cans if possible or allowed by the marina. 

[dmr]

1 hour ago, christiaan said:

I really only ever intended it as a home as I couldn't afford to buy a house. I can't find anywhere in the legislation that states a supplier of rebated fuel can decide for you what your usage is. All I can find is that you make your declaration based on actual usage and the supplier adjusts the duty in accordance. I used to live in a rural areas a r used heating oil which is 0 duty whereas red diesel is 11.14p duty included and should be no more if used for heating only. I can't understand why any supplier would want to charge customers any more than they legally have to!

Uk, Cambridgeshire

 

Some diesel sellers just find it easier to stick to 60:40 as it makes their calculations and paperwork marginally easier. It just might be a political view from the marina owner who could believe that boaters are lowlife who should pay their "fair share" of taxes. I have only encountered this attitude once and that was at a marina in Cambridgeshire (where I chose not to buy their diesel). Maybe this is where you are.

 

Ideally you should keep the tank topped up so just putting in a couple of jerry cans every week should be enough, though this is a bit tedious and hard work if you have to carry them any distance. Finding a petrol station that will sell you red diesel can also be a bit tricky, some are even more difficult than your marina. 😀. If you do go the jerrycan route then I find a syphon much more civilised than trying to pour into a funnel. It takes several minutes to syphon a 20litre can which is just the right time to do a bit od deck sweeping or whatever.

[christiaan]

6 minutes ago, dmr said:

 

Some diesel sellers just find it easier to stick to 60:40 as it makes their calculations and paperwork marginally easier. It just might be a political view from the marina owner who could believe that boaters are lowlife who should pay their "fair share" of taxes. I have only encountered this attitude once and that was at a marina in Cambridgeshire (where I chose not to buy their diesel). Maybe this is where you are.

 

Ideally you should keep the tank topped up so just putting in a couple of jerry cans every week should be enough, though this is a bit tedious and hard work if you have to carry them any distance. Finding a petrol station that will sell you red diesel can also be a bit tricky, some are even more difficult than your marina. 😀. If you do go the jerrycan route then I find a syphon much more civilised than trying to pour into a funnel. It takes several minutes to syphon a 20litre can which is just the right time to do a bit od deck sweeping or whatever.

I have heard that if you have separate tanks then it's less of a problem. I am thinking of having a separate smaller tank fitted for propulsion and keeping the larger tank just for heating. Then normal diesel in one and fully rebated red in The other. Just a thought!

[MtB]

2 minutes ago, christiaan said:

I have heard that if you have separate tanks then it's less of a problem. I am thinking of having a separate smaller tank fitted for propulsion and keeping the larger tank just for heating. Then normal diesel in one and fully rebated red in The other. Just a thought!

 

I don't think that will get you far with the fixed 60/40 retailers. 

 

Their refusal to budge on this originates from the right of any business to sell to whomever they like or not, under whatever terms of business they choose to impose. There is no legal obligation on the marina to "treat" with you to sell fuel on your terms as opposed to theirs. 

 

If you choose to make a PITA of yourself over it, you might find yourself with no mooring at all when it comes to renewal time. 

 

 

[ditchcrawler]

On 15/08/2009 at 16:51, Tootles said:

 

So back to the 'illegal' cans & garages then, I'm afraid. And really, who gives a b****r if the garage you take your cans to is acting 'illegally' or not.  

They must have a very limited market now it can't legally be used in plant 

[MtB]

1 hour ago, haggis said:

I don't think we do but we are keeping quiet about it 🙂 . I have heard on the grapevine that some suppliers are quite happy with zero propulsion for any boats but I couldn't possibly comment on that ! 

 

I think if you drill down into the legislation it actually requires one to declare "Intended Use", i.e. the use in the future of what you're buying now. Not what the current batch already in the tank is being used for. 

 

So if you intend your next purchase of fuel to be 100% domestic, because the tank is currently half full of say 60/40, who is in any position to prove you wrong about your intentions at the point of purchase? 

 

You might however, change your mind later...

 

 

[booke23]

As 500 litres has lasted you 2 years, that's just under 5 litres a week. So one 20 litre jerry can a month (on average) is all you need which is not too much of a hardship if you decide to shop around garages in your area. If they ask you to fill in a form asking what you're using it for, heating is a legitimate reason. 

[dmr]

11 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

They must have a very limited market now it can't legally be used in plant 

I expect than most construction sites (and bigger farms) get their diesel delivered to their site so the customers at most garages will be smaller farms and smallholdings etc. so the market might not have reduced too much.

44 minutes ago, christiaan said:

I have heard that if you have separate tanks then it's less of a problem. I am thinking of having a separate smaller tank fitted for propulsion and keeping the larger tank just for heating. Then normal diesel in one and fully rebated red in The other. Just a thought!

I would speak to ytour marina first before you go to the expense of aseparate tank, they might be totally stuck on 60:40 regardless.

Also do work out how much that extra tank will cost to install and what the savings are likely to be over the next few years. I suspect it will be cheaper to stick to the 60:40.

[ditchcrawler]

7 minutes ago, dmr said:

I expect than most construction sites (and bigger farms) get their diesel delivered to their site so the customers at most garages will be smaller farms and smallholdings etc. so the market might not have reduced too much.

 

I thought construction couldn't use it now

[dmr]

1 minute ago, ditchcrawler said:

I thought construction couldn't use it now

 

Sorry, I meant that before the change they were likely not buying from the local garage anyway.

The new regulations for farms are complicated as red should only be used for actual farming, not for the various farm related construction tasks.

[Lady M]

Unless you can get HVO, it will be better to buy little and often in future.

[Alan de Enfield]

1 hour ago, dmr said:

I expect than most construction sites (and bigger farms) get their diesel delivered to their site so the customers at most garages will be smaller farms and smallholdings etc. so the market might not have reduced too much.

I would speak to ytour marina first before you go to the expense of aseparate tank, they might be totally stuck on 60:40 regardless.

Also do work out how much that extra tank will cost to install and what the savings are likely to be over the next few years. I suspect it will be cheaper to stick to the 60:40.

 

 

Going back thru the original consultation document it does cover boats with twin tanks. Being as boats are designed to move about the 'large tank' would be considered to be the propulsion tank and the smaller tank would be deemed the 'domestic' tank.

 

The only boats considered as 'not moving' are official house boats which require the evidence Sue LadyM quoted above.

Post No ??

 

 

Edit to credit the correct person !!

 

 

 

6 minutes ago, Lady M said:

Unless you can get HVO, it will be better to buy little and often in future.

 

Interesting point.

 

Being as it is the vegetable oil content in the Mineral diesel that is causing the hydroscopic problems and short life, is HVO  better or worse for taking up water ?

Edited April 5 by Alan de Enfield

[dmr]

6 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

Going back thru the original consultation document it does cover boats with twin tanks. Being as boats are designed to move about the 'large tank' would be considered to be the propulsion tank and the smaller tank would be deemed the 'domestic' tank.

 

The only boats considered as 'not moving' are official house boats which require the evidence Sue LadyM quoted above.

Post No ??

 

 

Edit to credit the correct person !!

 

 

 

 

Interesting point.

 

Being as it is the vegetable oil content in the Mineral diesel that is causing the hydroscopic problems and short life, is HVO  better or worse for taking up water ?

 

HVO and FAME are two totally different fuels. They might be made from the same feedstock but the process of manufacture is different. FAME is pretty rubbish stuff but the government insists on diluting our diesel with it. HVO is good stuff and even better than "dinodiesel". HVO is not hygroscopic and is also long term stable.

[IanD]

10 minutes ago, dmr said:

 

HVO and FAME are two totally different fuels. They might be made from the same feedstock but the process of manufacture is different. FAME is pretty rubbish stuff but the government insists on diluting our diesel with it. HVO is good stuff and even better than "dinodiesel". HVO is not hygroscopic and is also long term stable.

If only you could actually get HVO on the canals... 😞 

 

(though I've been told this situation may improve...)

[Alan de Enfield]

 

 

6 minutes ago, IanD said:

If only you could actually get HVO on the canals... 😞 

 

(though I've been told this situation may improve...)

 

 

Pigasus !

 

 

I reckon there will be many users demanding it before it gets down to the bottom of the chain (leisure boaters)

 

I was told I could get a delivery of 'Full duty paid White HVO' at a price considerably higher than DERV at the local garage. I declined.

Edited April 5 by Alan de Enfield

[dmr]

1 hour ago, IanD said:

If only you could actually get HVO on the canals... 😞 

 

(though I've been told this situation may improve...)

I read somewhere, maybe even on this forum, that there was going to be an anouncement in the recent budget, but I have not heard anything about this.

[David Mack]

4 hours ago, haggis said:

I don't think we do but we are keeping quiet about it 🙂 . I have heard on the grapevine that some suppliers are quite happy with zero propulsion for any boats but I couldn't possibly comment on that ! 

Some time back I filled up at a boatyard where the customer fuel declarations were all in a ring binder on the shop counter. Flicking through I saw that almost every customer had declared 0% or perhaps 5% proplusion. But the yard didn't have that many moorings!

[MtB]

4 hours ago, David Mack said:

Some time back I filled up at a boatyard where the customer fuel declarations were all in a ring binder on the shop counter. Flicking through I saw that almost every customer had declared 0% or perhaps 5% proplusion. But the yard didn't have that many moorings!

 

I may have been one. I usually intend to use diesel mostly for heating when I buy it.