It all seemed so simple

[dasboot]

I'd go and talk to Dominic at Rugby Boat Sales first. He may not have the boat you want but he has more experience of canal boating than any other broker I know of. And he is happy to impart sound advice to anyone who asks, with good humour.

[Athy]

I can endorse the above recommendation of Andy Burnett's ABNB brokerage, with whom we have dealt most satisfactorily.

One possibility which no one has mentioned is: an ex-hire fleet boat. These will usually have been well maintained (they have to be, as they're out earning a living 30 or so weeks of the year) and, because intended for extended cruising, they are well supplied with creature comforts and with storage space. Hire boats used to have cheap-looking interiors but that's not as universal as it used to be. Several hire firms sell a few of their boats at the end of each season - watch the boatimags around October.

Oh, I know it's obvious but I forgot to mention: they are cheaper than buying new. Of the builders you mention, Reading Marine have a hire fleet so perhaps one of theirs would fit your bill.

Edited June 8, 2009 by Athy

[starman]

Speaking as someone who writes boat tests and once upon a time edited a canal mag, you might expect me to steer you in the direction of an expensive new boat but I tend to agree with the others that the right secondhand boat may well be the best. Find your feet, learn what you need etc etc. It does depends how much 'new-ness' and 'custom built for you' are important to you. I've tested expensive boats that have been built for first timers who'd never set foot on a boat before selling the house and moving onto the water -- many have never regretted it but I've seen others up for sale in the ad pages a year or so later because the owners had become disenchanted with the lifestyle or bought a boat too big and too complex for them.

From what you say, you seem to be jumping from Step One or Two - visit a boat show - to about Step Ten - order an expensive new boat - without spending enough time on the steps in between. Whether you're buying new or used, you need to formulate as clear an idea as possible as to what you want from your boat. Are you cruising the system, planning to take family or friends regularly, do you want all the comforts or home or a simple life, do you want a traditional engine or something very modern etc etc.

I would suggest doing as much research via forums, reading blogs, talking to boaters on the towpath, going to good brokers like ABNB and Rugby and boatyard open days before you get near a short list.

The names you suggest all fit-out boats to a high standard - witness the high resale values of their boats (as do others mentioned here) but they have different styles and different strengths.

As to security, well the BMF offers a staged-payment contract which offers some but by no means total security to your money. In the end you have to rely on your judgment, on regular visits to the yard on reputation - and on knowing that if you're being offered a deal that's too good to be true, it probably is.

Oh, and I have a 44ft tug with an engine room and boatman's cabin - about as far removed from the so-called 'clonecraft' I test as it's possible to get. And I wuldn't swap it because it suits us just fine.

[Purple Fairie]

All above posts are very sensible and I would not disagree with any of them but...............................................

 

I have sold my house and all my belongings that just cluttered up the place and hopefully go 'liveaboard' next month.

 

Absolutely brand new boat from one of the builders first mentioned, by the way they fitout the boat they do not build the shell, have experienced (many years of hiring in all weathers).

 

Just the other side of the discussion.

 

Are we mad probably but we aim to happy as well.

 

Good luck in your search.

 

Another one from 'the other side'

Like Bottle, our first narrowboat was new.

We did have years of hiring experience though, and once the decision was made to sell up we spent a year swatting up, touring the boat yards looking at different fit-outs, talking to liveaboards and builders. Then, booked the build slot and had another year while we waited for that doing more research.

With the exception of wardrobe doors we haven't changed anything, or needed to.

Having said that, we couldn't find a 3 bedroom s/h nb anyway so......

Good luck anyway

[Athy]

Speaking as someone who writes boat tests and once upon a time edited a canal mag, you might expect me to steer you in the direction of an expensive new boat but I tend to agree with the others that the right secondhand boat may well be the best. Find your feet, learn what you need etc etc. It does depends how much 'new-ness' and 'custom built for you' are important to you. I've tested expensive boats that have been built for first timers who'd never set foot on a boat before selling the house and moving onto the water -- many have never regretted it but I've seen others up for sale in the ad pages a year or so later because the owners had become disenchanted with the lifestyle or bought a boat too big and too complex for them.

From what you say, you seem to be jumping from Step One or Two - visit a boat show - to about Step Ten - order an expensive new boat - without spending enough time on the steps in between. Whether you're buying new or used, you need to formulate as clear an idea as possible as to what you want from your boat. Are you cruising the system, planning to take family or friends regularly, do you want all the comforts or home or a simple life, do you want a traditional engine or something very modern etc etc.

I would suggest doing as much research via forums, reading blogs, talking to boaters on the towpath, going to good brokers like ABNB and Rugby and boatyard open days before you get near a short list.

The names you suggest all fit-out boats to a high standard - witness the high resale values of their boats (as do others mentioned here) but they have different styles and different strengths.

As to security, well the BMF offers a staged-payment contract which offers some but by no means total security to your money. In the end you have to rely on your judgment, on regular visits to the yard on reputation - and on knowing that if you're being offered a deal that's too good to be true, it probably is.

Oh, and I have a 44ft tug with an engine room and boatman's cabin - about as far removed from the so-called 'clonecraft' I test as it's possible to get. And I wuldn't swap it because it suits us just fine.

Gosh, a kindred spirit! We have a 45 ft tug with a back cabin and a rebuilt old engine. Our boats should meet, perhaps they'll breed.

Sorry Admin, a bit off-topic, but he started it, honest he did.

[mikevye]

Go second hand and save yerself 15% VAT! We had a new build and would never do it again the costs and uncertainty about delivery lead for a very stressful time. At least with S/Hand the boats there in front of you not some projection of promises to be!

[Chertsey]

Gosh, a kindred spirit! We have a 45 ft tug with a back cabin and a rebuilt old engine. Our boats should meet, perhaps they'll breed.

Sorry Admin, a bit off-topic, but he started it, honest he did.

Ours is 54' and ditto ... we're all in the same area - sure we will meet sometime. Star is really lovely, I have to say.

Edited June 8, 2009 by WarriorWoman

[WJM]

I would recommend any builder who is not going to go bust and run off with a huge lump of your cash! Given that every single builder in the country is at risk of going under right now, that means you need to find a builder who does not need to soak up your money till the job is done. Since you wont find one, then you either decide to play Russian roulette with your money or you find a finished boat that you take away at the same time you hand over the dosh!

 

So do you love taking massive risks with money, or do you like the easy life?

[MoominPapa]

Ours is 54' and ditto ... we're all in the same area - sure we will meet sometime. Star is really lovely, I have to say.

 

Can I come to? I don't have a tug, but I do have a "tug-style" - i.e. raised front deck.

 

MP.

[nb Innisfree]

I would recommend any builder who is not going to go bust and run off with a huge lump of your cash! Given that every single builder in the country is at risk of going under right now, that means you need to find a builder who does not need to soak up your money till the job is done. Since you wont find one, then you either decide to play Russian roulette with your money or you find a finished boat that you take away at the same time you hand over the dosh!

 

So do you love taking massive risks with money, or do you like the easy life?

 

In our 4 years of liveaboard we have met 3 couples who have lost a good deal of money through bankrupt builders, one was £30,000+, there must be a lot more out there. My opinion is whether buying new or secondhand don't part with your readies until your boat is ready, which precludes build to order.

[Athy]

[ every single builder in the country is at risk of going under right now.

 

Where did you get that information from, or is it just your opinion? It sounds rather worrying.

[Bricksh]

Thanks again for your advice. It is worrying that some think all builders are at risk and analogies of Rusian Roulette very concerning.

I think I have a lot more research to do before we make a final decision new vs S/H.

[keble]

Thanks again for your advice. It is worrying that some think all builders are at risk and analogies of Rusian Roulette very concerning.

I think I have a lot more research to do before we make a final decision new vs S/H.

 

We bought new - a standard production boat, not our design. Because I was given some advice which I think is pretty good: "If you're new to boating you might think you know what you want - but you won't". You have to live with the boat for a while first. As it happens we've found a few things we'd change.

 

Our builder did deliver on-time and at the quoted price - they do exist. One year on we're very happy

[PaddingtonBear]

I would second that about 'Star', a simply wonderful boat. Of course MP you are all welcome anywhere and at any time and it would be an honour.

Edited June 8, 2009 by PaddingtonBear

[starman]

I would second that about 'Star', a simply wonderful boat.

 

You're too kind!

[loner]

I would own a used boat or two before building my dream boat. We are on our 4th perfect boat. You will meet many people who have many different boats. Spend a year looking around while living on a boat. Talk to them and get there ideas about what they would change about their boat if they could or how their next boat will be difference than their present one. Many questions like pumpout vs cassette or both will be answered by experience. I hope you grow to love CCing as much as we do.

[mayalld]

[ every single builder in the country is at risk of going under right now.

 

Where did you get that information from, or is it just your opinion? It sounds rather worrying.

 

It may just be an opinion, but it isn't too far off the wall.

 

It is becoming a self-fulfilling prophecy.

 

The start of the recession saw a few go bump, which led to some nervousness, and that made people hold back from new build, which drove more to the wall.

 

We are now in a position where enough companies have gone under that almost nobody who is well informed is prepared to put up stage payments, for fear that the builder will go under. As such, the builders DO go under. The only builders who have the remotest hope of survival are those who want nothing up front, and they are few and far between.

 

Even those builders may not survive. The buying public knows that many builders want deposits and stage payments, and will decide on that basis to go 2nd hand, without ever discovering that there are some builders who don't want money up front.

 

The recession also means that there are more people finding that boating is a luxury too far, and looking to sell, so there will be more 2nd-hand boats available.

 

The only way that I would consider having a new boat built at present is with me as principal in the deal. I would contract with a builder to rent his workshop, and his services to construct a boat from steel that I bought. Anything else is too risky.

[starman]

The only way that I would consider having a new boat built at present is with me as principal in the deal. I would contract with a builder to rent his workshop, and his services to construct a boat from steel that I bought. Anything else is too risky.

 

But aren't you then asking him to take the same commercial risks on your financial viability (to pay the rent, to be able to supply materials etc etc) as you are not wiling to take on him?

Yes, there are more commercial risks in boatbuilding and in other industries at the moment but you can do a lot to mitigate those risks: the worst horror stories one reads often sadly seem to involve buyers taking too much on trust, not following the build closely enough, paying too much up front, choosing a builder who offers impossibly optimistic prices and such like. It always seems extraordinary to me that people will commit £100k to a new boat and then baulk at paying an independent surveyor to keep track of the quality and quantity of work if they are unable to do so themselves.

All the same, as I said earlier, I would still advise the OP to go secondhand for all the reasons stated before.

[sueb]

It may just be an opinion, but it isn't too far off the wall.

 

It is becoming a self-fulfilling prophecy.

 

The start of the recession saw a few go bump, which led to some nervousness, and that made people hold back from new build, which drove more to the wall.

 

We are now in a position where enough companies have gone under that almost nobody who is well informed is prepared to put up stage payments, for fear that the builder will go under. As such, the builders DO go under. The only builders who have the remotest hope of survival are those who want nothing up front, and they are few and far between.

 

Even those builders may not survive. The buying public knows that many builders want deposits and stage payments, and will decide on that basis to go 2nd hand, without ever discovering that there are some builders who don't want money up front.

 

The recession also means that there are more people finding that boating is a luxury too far, and looking to sell, so there will be more 2nd-hand boats available.

 

The only way that I would consider having a new boat built at present is with me as principal in the deal. I would contract with a builder to rent his workshop, and his services to construct a boat from steel that I bought. Anything else is too risky.

Even if the boatbuilder delivers, it may be the customer who can't complete the purchase due to a change in finances. It doesn't take many of these to drive a boatbuilder out of business.

Sue

[Bricksh]

Do you think the boat builders I mentioned in my original post are likely to suffer going bankrupt?

 

Is it people like me, getting spooked potentially, that is dictating that the prophesy is fulfilled?

 

Also I have noticed that a lot of second hand boats seem to have been on the market for a long time. One we looked at over a year ago is still for sale. There must be some bargains to be had. What would be a reasonable offer against the advertised price on second hand market?

 

Bricksh

 

PS How do you do the Quote box thing?

[alan_fincher]

Do you think the boat builders I mentioned in my original post are likely to suffer going bankrupt?

I don't see how you can possibly know.

 

Some people have done a lot of research into long established and well respected boat-builders and still got badly burnt. One member on here asked more qestions than just about any I can remember, and still ended up with his worst nightmare.

 

I'm not convinced there is any correlation between quality of product, and the business stability of the builder. It can be the best modern narrow boat ever, and the company could still go under.

 

If you go through a stack of (say) Waterways Worlds of a few years ago, you will find page upon page of glowing reviews of boats from outfits that have now folded. Or you see the same boats winning trophies, or "best of show".

 

I'm never likely to have the cash to commission a bespoke boat. But if I did, I wouldn't !

 

The only new boat I'd consider, (if I had the cash), is one that was already 100% completed.

[Madmark62]

Bricksh

 

PS How do you do the Quote box thing?

just click on the reply box on that post you want to quote, then you can cut down on the amount you actually quote if needed. I think anyway, if this works , thats how you do it.

[Colin Smith]

I would recommend any builder who is not going to go bust and run off with a huge lump of your cash! Given that every single builder in the country is at risk of going under right now, that means you need to find a builder who does not need to soak up your money till the job is done. Since you wont find one, then you either decide to play Russian roulette with your money or you find a finished boat that you take away at the same time you hand over the dosh!

 

So do you love taking massive risks with money, or do you like the easy life?

 

WRONG!!! I found a builder who is in no danger of going bust, very strong financially, staged payments, no risk. They do exist, you've just got to be careful and look closely.

 

I wouldn't and didn't buy second hand. Too much like hard work sorting out other peoples ideas to suit my own and many second-hand live aboard boats will let you down, simply because they weren't designed for it. If you have researched, thought, planned, researched, thought again and planned some more then why not get what YOU want built?

 

Colin

[alan_fincher]

If you have researched, thought, planned, researched, thought again and planned some more then why not get what YOU want built?

Sadly there are few people out there who can answer that question.

 

No doubt you will argue that their very extensive research much have been flawed, but I don't think there's any way of knowing with total confidence that nothing will go wrong, (in a staged payment situation).

[Pav]

WRONG!!! I found a builder who is in no danger of going bust, very strong financially, staged payments, no risk. They do exist, you've just got to be careful and look closely.

I wouldn't and didn't buy second hand. Too much like hard work sorting out other peoples ideas to suit my own and many second-hand live aboard boats will let you down, simply because they weren't designed for it. If you have researched, thought, planned, researched, thought again and planned some more then why not get what YOU want built?

 

Colin

 

Hi Colin, We thought the same but still got caught out!

 

Severn Valley Boat Centre had been in business and run by the same person for over 30 years.

They always had 3 to 4 boats in build at a time, and when we placed our order, the lead time was for over a year.

All good signs so we thought for a healthy business.

 

We spoke to SVBC customers, both past and present, for feedback. Apart from just one instance, the feedbak was positive.....Some of whom were having their second SVBC boat built which seemed another good sign.

 

According to an industry website, they were also members of the organisation, which gave a certain level of reassurance...........or again, so we thought, but unfortunately SVBC had ceased to be members, but the organisations website did not insure that SVBC were removed from the member listing.....Result was that each time I checked before handing over another stage payment, I was getting false reassurances. I contacted the organisation but they did not want to know!

 

I have admitted we were foolish...........After being 'harassed' by the director of SVBC for over a month, we were stupid enough to hand over a large sum (£26,400) for a stage payment, even though the agreed completed stage of build had not been met.

 

BIG mistake.......we lost every penny of that as the company went into administration just days after our cheque had been cashed. We have not been able to get a cent back as creditors.

 

The painful thing was that we then had the nightmare and extra cost of getting Marmaduke completed.....and believe me it was a nightmare!

 

If we had our time again, it would be second hand, second hand, second hand. As others have said, new only if the boat was completed and ready to go.

 

I wish you and every other new build customer well.......No one should have to go through the terrible experiance we did.

 

Regards,

Pav.

Edited June 11, 2009 by Pav