Sound-proofing

[nicander]

We are about to buy a 1989 23 ft Springer Waterbug with an onboard 2-cylinder Mitsubishi/Thorneycroft T33 diesel engine. While the noise level from this engine is by no means unacceptable we should like to reduce it if possible. Any views or advice on the merits or otherwise of insulating the engine compartment in this type of boat, and if so what is the best material/method? Has anyone used products from "Noise Killer"?

[Peter R]

Not used 'noise killer' but I have lined the underside of my stern deck with a similar product (sourced from aquafax as a friend had a trade account with them at the time). It hasn't silenced the noise completely (sound waves have a habit of finding their way out!), but it reduced it noticeably.

 

peter

[Biggles]

ipod!

[ChrisPy]

search the forum - many previous threads.

[Tony Brooks]

We are about to buy a 1989 23 ft Springer Waterbug with an onboard 2-cylinder Mitsubishi/Thorneycroft T33 diesel engine. While the noise level from this engine is by no means unacceptable we should like to reduce it if possible. Any views or advice on the merits or otherwise of insulating the engine compartment in this type of boat, and if so what is the best material/method? Has anyone used products from "Noise Killer"?

 

 

Be aware that that company supply two distinct products.

 

One is designed to damp panel vibration such as is often used in cars. Personally I doubt this will be particularly successful unless your bulkhead or gas locker (say) is made of thin sheet steel.

 

The other is a foam-"lead" sandwich that is designed to trap and absorb sound. This one is likely to be more successful on a boat but you have to find a way of sticking it in place or make a lined box for the engine WITH VENTS IN IT.

 

Before you do anything else get some thick, closed cell "rubber" foam and stick it to the bottom of the deck boards so it sits on the bearers. This may well seal a myriad small gaps and attenuate the noise enough to avoid further expense. Anyway do as has be suggested and spend a while searching this forum.

[nicander]

search the forum - many previous threads.

 

Thanks for this - yes, I'll do that.

[Billypownall]

We are about to buy a 1989 23 ft Springer Waterbug with an onboard 2-cylinder Mitsubishi/Thorneycroft T33 diesel engine. While the noise level from this engine is by no means unacceptable we should like to reduce it if possible. Any views or advice on the merits or otherwise of insulating the engine compartment in this type of boat, and if so what is the best material/method? Has anyone used products from "Noise Killer"?

I have used Noisekiller products on two boats now with a great deal of success. I would buy their thinner lead foam sandwich which has a sticky back which is cheaper and is no trouble at all to line an engine space. No doubt the thicker products are more effective but are much harder to fix. I have lined all the removable boards so that they sit on the foam and lined most of the rest of the space some with the eggshell type which stops reflected sound. Each time when I started the engine I was impressed with the reduction in noise. Even more so our present boat which has a hospital silencer which works well but exaggerates engine and gearbox noise which I think is usually to a certain degree drownded by the exhaust. Ring Steve at noisekiller,he is very helpful.

[nicander]

Be aware that that company supply two distinct products.

 

One is designed to damp panel vibration such as is often used in cars. Personally I doubt this will be particularly successful unless your bulkhead or gas locker (say) is made of thin sheet steel.

 

The other is a foam-"lead" sandwich that is designed to trap and absorb sound. This one is likely to be more successful on a boat but you have to find a way of sticking it in place or make a lined box for the engine WITH VENTS IN IT.

 

Before you do anything else get some thick, closed cell "rubber" foam and stick it to the bottom of the deck boards so it sits on the bearers. This may well seal a myriad small gaps and attenuate the noise enough to avoid further expense. Anyway do as has be suggested and spend a while searching this forum.

 

Thanks - noted.

 

search the forum - many previous threads.

[Albion]

Be aware that that company supply two distinct products.

 

One is designed to damp panel vibration such as is often used in cars. Personally I doubt this will be particularly successful unless your bulkhead or gas locker (say) is made of thin sheet steel.

 

The other is a foam-"lead" sandwich that is designed to trap and absorb sound. This one is likely to be more successful on a boat but you have to find a way of sticking it in place or make a lined box for the engine WITH VENTS IN IT.

 

Before you do anything else get some thick, closed cell "rubber" foam and stick it to the bottom of the deck boards so it sits on the bearers. This may well seal a myriad small gaps and attenuate the noise enough to avoid further expense. Anyway do as has be suggested and spend a while searching this forum.

 

Tony is quite right in what he says. I have used, with some considerable success, a product that had a thick plastic layer where the lead is in Tony's recommended product. It is important to seal every tiny hole, especially in the joints between the deck boards, as noise can propagate again from the smallest hole. BUT it is critical that you allow sufficient air flow for the engine's needs and cooling airflow as Tony has said. The art of lining a vent with sound proofing material whilst still creating an adequate labyrinth to deaden noise is quite fun but must be done to get the best results.

Roger

[alan_fincher]

My guess, though I could be wrong, is that none of the products that sandwich a "lead like" layer in actually use real lead, or even metal.

 

All those I have seen use a really dense plastic, although it is "lead like".

 

Note that the quality and construction of these sheets with the "lead" layer in can vary enormously. Some have much thicker "lead" and much denser foam.

 

I suggest you get TW Marine to send you a sample of theirs, then compare to that in other places like Midland Chandlers, and the like.

 

You can easily see that one is likely to kill more sound than the other, although you are likely to find the extra quality comes at a premium. At least if you compare quality and price though, you are making a more informed decision.

 

Personally I've heard too many stories of the self adhesive stuff falling off. We went for the stuff with no adhesive layer, and used copious amounts of Evostick - it's never going to fall off, but I was "high" for days after the installation!

[Tony Brooks]

My guess, though I could be wrong, is that none of the products that sandwich a "lead like" layer in actually use real lead, or even metal.

 

All those I have seen use a really dense plastic, although it is "lead like".

 

Note that the quality and construction of these sheets with the "lead" layer in can vary enormously. Some have much thicker "lead" and much denser foam.

 

I suggest you get TW Marine to send you a sample of theirs, then compare to that in other places like Midland Chandlers, and the like.

 

You can easily see that one is likely to kill more sound than the other, although you are likely to find the extra quality comes at a premium. At least if you compare quality and price though, you are making a more informed decision.

 

Personally I've heard too many stories of the self adhesive stuff falling off. We went for the stuff with no adhesive layer, and used copious amounts of Evostick - it's never going to fall off, but I was "high" for days after the installation!

 

 

And being a 20 year old Springer I fear he may end up trying to stick the stuff to rust which will fall off. Thats why I made an engine box and lined that.

[Albion]

snipped

Personally I've heard too many stories of the self adhesive stuff falling off. We went for the stuff with no adhesive layer, and used copious amounts of Evostick - it's never going to fall off, but I was "high" for days after the installation!

 

Alan, you are so right.

Your story made me laugh because that was exactly what happened to me when I was working buried deep in the engine hole and under the stern deck of the trad boat that I had at the time. It wasn't until I finally surfaced from using the heavy vapour Evostik type glue that I realised just how woozy I was. It was a little scary at the time because you then realised with a vengeance why they put the warnings on the tin.

Roger

[Guest User]

I've just fitted some to the underside of a cruiser stern deck.... even onto sound wood, glue was never going to work, the sound deadening is just too heavy ... stainless screws and repair washers worked a treat though. Maybe bond battens first onto metal surfaces ?

Edited May 30, 2009 by Graham!

[ditchcrawler]

I've just fitted some to the underside of a cruiser stern deck.... even onto sound wood, glue was never going to work, the sound deadening is just too heavy ... stainless screws and repair washers worked a treat though. Maybe bond battens first onto metal surfaces ?

Check the prices against www.asap-supplies.co.uk before youi part with money

[alan_fincher]

I've just fitted some to the underside of a cruiser stern deck.... even onto sound wood, glue was never going to work, the sound deadening is just too heavy ... stainless screws and repair washers worked a treat though. Maybe bond battens first onto metal surfaces ?

Even the very heavy stuff from TW Marine will stay stuck to any sound wooden surface if you use Evostick, and plenty of it, (follow the instructions about letting it go very tacky before bringing the surfaces together). Biggest problem would be not getting it correctly lined up at the first attempt.

 

We have it "hanging" from the underside of 18mm plywood boards above the engine, and I'm very confident to say it's not going anywhere, (or at least not anywhere that the rest of the boat doesn't).

 

If applied to a properly prepared metal surface, I can't see why it should be any less effective.

[nicander]

I have used Noisekiller products on two boats now with a great deal of success. I would buy their thinner lead foam sandwich which has a sticky back which is cheaper and is no trouble at all to line an engine space. No doubt the thicker products are more effective but are much harder to fix. I have lined all the removable boards so that they sit on the foam and lined most of the rest of the space some with the eggshell type which stops reflected sound. Each time when I started the engine I was impressed with the reduction in noise. Even more so our present boat which has a hospital silencer which works well but exaggerates engine and gearbox noise which I think is usually to a certain degree drownded by the exhaust. Ring Steve at noisekiller,he is very helpful.

Many thanks for this! Certainly sound worth a try.

[nicander]

Even the very heavy stuff from TW Marine will stay stuck to any sound wooden surface if you use Evostick, and plenty of it, (follow the instructions about letting it go very tacky before bringing the surfaces together). Biggest problem would be not getting it correctly lined up at the first attempt.

 

We have it "hanging" from the underside of 18mm plywood boards above the engine, and I'm very confident to say it's not going anywhere, (or at least not anywhere that the rest of the boat doesn't).

 

If applied to a properly prepared metal surface, I can't see why it should be any less effective.

Thanks to everyone for all these helpful suggestions and comments.

[Theo]

I've just fitted some to the underside of a cruiser stern deck.... even onto sound wood, glue was never going to work, the sound deadening is just too heavy ... stainless screws and repair washers worked a treat though. Maybe bond battens first onto metal surfaces ?

 

I used screws and repair washers under the engine boards but the back steps are steel and would have required drilling and threading. Mammoth tape is the dog's. It really is unbelievably sticky.

 

Nick

[bag 'o' bones]

Dynamat

 

Type it into google.

 

Not the cheapest by any means.

 

Everything else is second best!

[WotEver]

Dynamat

 

Dynamat is nothing more than vibration dampening material. Cars are generally made of 1mm or less thick steel - the panels vibrate. Narrowboat hulls are generally made of 6 or 8 mm steel (dunno about OP's Springer - my guess would be 6mm) - they don't vibrate much. Boats generally want engine noise reducing as opposed to panels dampening - and that requires density.

 

Noisekiller or similar 30mm foam panels with the lead sandwich as previously advised are much more suitable for killing engine noise on a boat. It's not cheap, but it's highly effective.

 

For what it's worth I've had no problems with the self-adhesive panels falling off even when they get soaked with rainwater hanging upside down from a steel engine cover on a cruiser stern, but as they say - your mileage may vary

 

Regards,

Tone

[Guest User]

It'll be interesting to see how the service life of the contact adhesives holds up. For me, thinking a little further down the line, I like the idea of accessibility and ease of replacement. I feel that screws and washers, where its possible to use them, facilitate this. Mind you, this is probably borne from the fact that I still have nightmares about removing residual film of contact glue from a 50ft length of ceiling of a boat that had been completely lined with vinyl, but which had detached itself over time. Its a job and a half to get the old glue off in order to get a sound suface again

[Tony Brooks]

It'll be interesting to see how the service life of the contact adhesives holds up. For me, thinking a little further down the line, I like the idea of accessibility and ease of replacement. I feel that screws and washers, where its possible to use them, facilitate this. Mind you, this is probably borne from the fact that I still have nightmares about removing residual film of contact glue from a 50ft length of ceiling of a boat that had been completely lined with vinyl, but which had detached itself over time. Its a job and a half to get the old glue off in order to get a sound suface again

 

 

Absolutely - how may others here can remember the BMC 1100 saga of head lining falling down whilst driving. From the day I replaced my first one I have had a distrust of gluing things to metal.

[Billypownall]

It'll be interesting to see how the service life of the contact adhesives holds up. For me, thinking a little further down the line, I like the idea of accessibility and ease of replacement. I feel that screws and washers, where its possible to use them, facilitate this. Mind you, this is probably borne from the fact that I still have nightmares about removing residual film of contact glue from a 50ft length of ceiling of a boat that had been completely lined with vinyl, but which had detached itself over time. Its a job and a half to get the old glue off in order to get a sound suface again

There is no problem at all with the thinner Noisekiller sound proofing. Just cut to size peel off the backing and stick on any clean surface. You can look for work if you want but I would recommend to take the easy way. I have had no problems at all on two boats and been pleased with the results. I find it strange that nobody else on this forum seems to be as positive as I am with these products.

[WotEver]

I find it strange that nobody else on this forum seems to be as positive as I am with these products.

 

:::Waves hand:::

 

I've had them stick like... umm, brown stuff to a blanket for the last 4 years with absolutely no problems whatsoever. I didn't even do THAT good a job of cleaning the panels prior to sticking them either.

 

Regards,

Tony

[chieftiff]

There is no problem at all with the thinner Noisekiller sound proofing. Just cut to size peel off the backing and stick on any clean surface. You can look for work if you want but I would recommend to take the easy way. I have had no problems at all on two boats and been pleased with the results. I find it strange that nobody else on this forum seems to be as positive as I am with these products.

 

Perhaps other members haven't discovered the joy of degreaser nor understand the concept of pressure sensitive adhesive? The same type of adhesive is used on modern external car trim which seems to hold up pretty well for around 15 years exposed to vibration and the environment, the amount of grip is directly proportional to the pressure applied on application (and the adhesives inherent attributes of shear & flow as well as some obscure forces such as Van Der Wal (sp?). The adhesives used for engine bay noise reduction panels are specifically designed to cope with the environmental condition found in an engine bay (heat & moisture) but may not be particularly good at coping with extreme cold which could be a problem on a metal decked cruiser stern I would imagine.

 

Can you tell that my last employer sent me on a 3 day course about modern and advanced adhesives?

Edited June 1, 2009 by chieftiff