Gearbox

[ditchcrawler]

If you were fitting a new gearbox would you go for a PRM, Technodrive or Hurth on a 1500cc Beta?

Brian

[NBMike]

I finally got my rebuilt engine running last weekend only to find the gearbox is in drive all the time. (No neutral!) So I may be looking for a new gearbox soon myself. (I'll take this one apart first to try to see what's what)

Don't know what I would fit yet though.

Mike

[tosher]

If you were fitting a new gearbox would you go for a PRM, Technodrive or Hurth on a 1500cc Beta?

Brian

 

My boat has a PRM 150 which works very well and is smooth to operate and I am very happy with it but here is a tale about the robustness of Hurth gearboxes that might help you decide. - For many years I drove a rich mans yacht around the Med for a living. It was a sail boat and had a Perkins auxilliary engine coupled to a Hurth gearbox that after 15 years service reverse gear became very difficult to engage, which made stopping a bit of a hit & miss affair. It was decided to have a complete new engine/gearbox installed and so an engineer from Perkins visited the boat to measure up etc. During his inspection of the old installation he found that the Hurth gearbox linkage was in fact connected up with forward and reverse the wrong way round and that the folding prop had been reversed to to compensate and make the boats direction of travel agree with the direction of the gear lever. So for the previous 15 years when we had been travelling forward the gearbox was actually in reverse, I commented to the engineer that I understood there was a time restriction on using manual gearboxes in reverse because of thrust bearing loadings, yes there is he said there is---15 to 30 MINUTES! Neadles to say we stuck with Hurth for the gearbox. tosher.

[dor]

My experience of the Technodrives as fitted by Vetus are they are crap. I wouldn't go for a Vetus engine again based solely on their gearboxes. I understand Hurth are even worse.

 

Give me a PRM 150 anytime.

 

The problem with so many of the gearboxes fitted to inland waterway boats is that they just are not designed for the purpose. I understand about 1% of Vetus' production goes into I.W. vessels, so they do not have much interest in doing anything special for them. If you think about it, the average salty boat gets put into gear, cruises for a few hours then gets put out of gear. Compare that to a narrowboat going through a flight of locks, the Audlem flight say, and the gearbox will do more engaging and disengaging in a couple of hours than it would in an average salty boat in a year.

[denboy]

if you can get one prm 160 gets my vote(260 is the new version same thing tho)

[Big COL]

PRM every time. Just make sure you get the ratio right.

[johnthebridge]

PRM every time, but you haven't mentioned Borg Warner, which are also very good.

A boatbuilder friend of mine used to describe Hurth 'boxes as "engine fuses".

[Keeping Up]

PRM every time, but you haven't mentioned Borg Warner, which are also very good.

A boatbuilder friend of mine used to describe Hurth 'boxes as "engine fuses".

Just as long as you don't get one of the old Borg Warner "velvet drive" boxes. That's what we had originally; when it failed after a couple of years the Borg Warner engineer said we were lucky to have made it last so long since most people had got less than a year's use before getting their money back under warrantee.

[johnthebridge]

Just as long as you don't get one of the old Borg Warner "velvet drive" boxes. That's what we had originally; when it failed after a couple of years the Borg Warner engineer said we were lucky to have made it last so long since most people had got less than a year's use before getting their money back under warrantee.

Agreed, but I was under the impression that a new 'box is required.

[churchward]

If you were fitting a new gearbox would you go for a PRM, Technodrive or Hurth on a 1500cc Beta?

Brian

 

I have an older style Beta V1505 (one of the red painted ones) with a Hurth mechanical box. It is the original box so has been whirring away for 10 years or so now although I don't know how many hours it has done but it seems not a huge amount. It (touch wood) is in good order and continues to do what it is supposed to.

 

If I had to replace it firstly for simplicity (ie bell housing, drive plate connections etc) it would be simpler to consider a replacement Hurth. On the other hand experiences with hydraulic PRM units on other boats they seem on the whole quieter than the mechanical Hurths so I would have to think about them too.

 

On a share boat we used to have we had a PRM260 equivalent I think which was quieter and perhaps smoother in use than the Hurth but on the other hand talking to other share boat owners they seemed to "let go" without much warning and need replacing where others who have lived with Hurth boxes for a few years seem to say that they start to tell you when they are reaching the end of life with new an not so nice noises before turning their toes up. Of course share boats have a hard life (perhaps get used more than a hire boat even) so needing replacing after a few years (4-8 or more seemed to be the spread) is possibly not unreasonable and 8 years share boat use might easily represent a lifetime of holiday boat use with a single owner.

[Timleech]

Technodrive are reckoned to be not really designed for inland waterway duty, there are also alleged issues about running out of gear for long periods.

 

If you're considering a Hurth/ZF, I would suggest looking at a size bigger than the minimum for your engine. That's actually not a bad plan for any gearbox for canal duty.

 

Tim

[Neil TNC]

If you were fitting a new gearbox would you go for a PRM, Technodrive or Hurth on a 1500cc Beta?

Brian

 

My own experience is:

Earnest's PRM 150 has done over 9,000 locks / 6000 hours...so you gauge how many times it has been in and out of gear.

(and at the moment it is not leaking oil - selector arm seal recently replaced)

Beatty's Hurth did just under 6000 locks in our ownership, then promptly terminally failed

 

From choice with a barge, I would have a PRM 500, which has a pto built in.

 

Ian Clarke did a lot of research when he put a 5 cylinder Kutota Nanni in his wooden motor-sailer. The general consensus, even amongst the cruiser owners was to have a PRM.

He got it right with the gearbox (PRM 260), but NOT the 5 cylinder Nanni.

Graham Thomas at Riversdale Barge in Ireland always has PRM's on his hire and private build wide beam narrowboats and barges (mostly Beta's). He has has one PRM 160 go...but you should have seen the state of the prop, after some hirers wrecked the whole drive train/engine mounts.

[Guest]

My experience of the Technodrives as fitted by Vetus are they are crap. I wouldn't go for a Vetus engine again based solely on their gearboxes. I understand Hurth are even worse.

 

Give me a PRM 150 anytime.

 

The problem with so many of the gearboxes fitted to inland waterway boats is that they just are not designed for the purpose. I understand about 1% of Vetus' production goes into I.W. vessels, so they do not have much interest in doing anything special for them. If you think about it, the average salty boat gets put into gear, cruises for a few hours then gets put out of gear. Compare that to a narrowboat going through a flight of locks, the Audlem flight say, and the gearbox will do more engaging and disengaging in a couple of hours than it would in an average salty boat in a year.

Echo, although I like the Vetus (Mitsubishi) engine. Do you find the Technodrive is very noisy Dor?

Edited January 24, 2009 by Guest

[John Bean]

I wouldn't use anything but a PRM. Their aftersales service is reliable and helpful just like their gearboxes

[David Schweizer]

The PRM 160 (now the 260) gets my vote every time. it is capable of operating the drive on a sea fishing boat, so a narrowboat is a piece of cake.

 

I have one on my boat and after 28 years and well over twenty thousand hours it is still going strong. When I had the engine re-built two years ago, I asked the engineer to srtrip down and overhaul the gearbox at the same time. He stripped it down and came to the view that there was no wear in anything, the rattling in drive which I had thought to be a gearbox fault, turmed out to be a disintegrating drive plate. So all he did was replace the drive plate & oil seals, and re-assembled it.

Edited January 25, 2009 by David Schweizer

[ditchcrawler]

Just as long as you don't get one of the old Borg Warner "velvet drive" boxes. That's what we had originally; when it failed after a couple of years the Borg Warner engineer said we were lucky to have made it last so long since most people had got less than a year's use before getting their money back under warrantee.

A friend had one of those, it lasted a long time, he was told that the short life ones were a "bad batch" but that was sufficient to finish the off. He couldn't get his repaired and had to have a new box which was a bit longer and not as smooth.

[ditchcrawler]

Thanks for all the advice, a new Beta engine with a PRM box is now on order. It wasn't for me but for a friend who decided rather than spend money on his old engine he would bit the bullet and buy a complete new unit. Many thanks once again.

Brian

[Billypownall]

My experience of the Technodrives as fitted by Vetus are they are crap. I wouldn't go for a Vetus engine again based solely on their gearboxes. I understand Hurth are even worse.

 

Give me a PRM 150 anytime.

 

The problem with so many of the gearboxes fitted to inland waterway boats is that they just are not designed for the purpose. I understand about 1% of Vetus' production goes into I.W. vessels, so they do not have much interest in doing anything special for them. If you think about it, the average salty boat gets put into gear, cruises for a few hours then gets put out of gear. Compare that to a narrowboat going through a flight of locks, the Audlem flight say, and the gearbox will do more engaging and disengaging in a couple of hours than it would in an average salty boat in a year.

Just what is your experience with Technodrive gearboxes for you to say they are crap? Our last boat had a Technodrive box which I must say sounded a bit agricultural as it clonked into gear. When I voiced my doubts about this I remember the installer saying they were bullet proof and he had never known one fail. Furthermore as a gesture of his confidence he doubled the warranty. Although we only did about 900 hours the geabox gave no problem and this is the case under new ownership another year down the line. I know Catweasel has a similar Vetus Technodrive setup and when I last spoke to him on this site his gearbox was still clonking with no problems. Our new boat has a PRM 150 which certainly goes more quietly into gear. I hope it is as reliable as the Technodrive as some have mentioned oil leaks with the PRM. As an aside I have to say that the Mitsibushi engine with the Technodirve seemed a lot quieter than the Barrus Shire 40 we now have. Whether this is a basic fact or due to the installation I am not sure.

[David Schweizer]

Just what is your experience with Technodrive gearboxes for you to say they are crap? Our last boat had a Technodrive box which I must say sounded a bit agricultural as it clonked into gear. When I voiced my doubts about this I remember the installer saying they were bullet proof and he had never known one fail. Furthermore as a gesture of his confidence he doubled the warranty. Although we only did about 900 hours the geabox gave no problem and this is the case under new ownership another year down the line. I know Catweasel has a similar Vetus Technodrive setup and when I last spoke to him on this site his gearbox was still clonking with no problems. Our new boat has a PRM 150 which certainly goes more quietly into gear. I hope it is as reliable as the Technodrive as some have mentioned oil leaks with the PRM. As an aside I have to say that the Mitsibushi engine with the Technodirve seemed a lot quieter than the Barrus Shire 40 we now have. Whether this is a basic fact or due to the installation I am not sure.

There was a batch of boxes sold a few years ago with an oil leak fault which developed after a couple of years in service. As far as I know it had something to do with the gasket fitted being thinner than the design spec. Not sure which box it was though.

 

Someone I know had one with an oil leak. He contacted Newage about it and they arraged to send a fitter to the boat who changed it there and then, free of charge.

Edited January 25, 2009 by David Schweizer

[Keeping Up]

My old PRM Delta leaked like a sieve from new - I used to collect a pint a day in a can underneath and pour it back in the top each night. After several attempts by the fitter, including fitting a thicker gasket between the two halves, the leaks were reduced to a mere drip which persisted until the rear seal wore out after 5000 hours and started throwing oil everywhere. At that time the box was inspected and declared unfit for repair.

 

It was replaced by a PRM 150. Within a few weeks Newage had it back to replace the front seal, and in the next 12 months the fitter had 3 more attempts to make it oil tight - replacing the selector shaft seal and others - before returning it again to Newage who stripped it down and replaced every seal it had. Within a few weeks the fitter had to replace the selector shaft seal again. It now leaks only a few drips a day except when I'm running hard on a river when it drops maybe a pint a week.

 

I dream of the utopian situation of having a gearbox which doesn't leak, just like the old Lister hydraulic one on my previous boat, but I have long given up hope of ever achieving that dream!

[Billypownall]

My old PRM Delta leaked like a sieve from new - I used to collect a pint a day in a can underneath and pour it back in the top each night. After several attempts by the fitter, including fitting a thicker gasket between the two halves, the leaks were reduced to a mere drip which persisted until the rear seal wore out after 5000 hours and started throwing oil everywhere. At that time the box was inspected and declared unfit for repair.

 

It was replaced by a PRM 150. Within a few weeks Newage had it back to replace the front seal, and in the next 12 months the fitter had 3 more attempts to make it oil tight - replacing the selector shaft seal and others - before returning it again to Newage who stripped it down and replaced every seal it had. Within a few weeks the fitter had to replace the selector shaft seal again. It now leaks only a few drips a day except when I'm running hard on a river when it drops maybe a pint a week.

 

I dream of the utopian situation of having a gearbox which doesn't leak, just like the old Lister hydraulic one on my previous boat, but I have long given up hope of ever achieving that dream!

 

Never had a drip of oil from my Technodrive which Dor says are crap. From these posts one wonders about the reliability of gearboxes. They certainly take a fair old hammering with canal use.

Edited January 25, 2009 by Billypownall

[MoominPapa]

I dream of the utopian situation of having a gearbox which doesn't leak, just like the old Lister hydraulic one on my previous boat, but I have long given up hope of ever achieving that dream!

Well, my Lister gearbox leaks. At least I think it does. It shares the oil with the engine so it's not easy to tell what's leaking from the engine and what from the 'box. The reduction box has its own oil and that leaks too.

 

MP.

[Guest]

Never had a drip of oil from my Technodrive which Dor says are crap. From these posts one wonders about the reliability of gearboxes. They certainly take a fair old hammering with canal use.

Have to say the Technodrive on mine is absolutely oil tight after 1000 hrs. It is the noise when engaging gear that annoys me.

[Tony Brooks]

Just what is your experience with Technodrive gearboxes for you to say they are crap? Our last boat had a Technodrive box which I must say sounded a bit agricultural as it clonked into gear. When I voiced my doubts about this I remember the installer saying they were bullet proof and he had never known one fail. Furthermore as a gesture of his confidence he doubled the warranty. Although we only did about 900 hours the geabox gave no problem and this is the case under new ownership another year down the line. I know Catweasel has a similar Vetus Technodrive setup and when I last spoke to him on this site his gearbox was still clonking with no problems. Our new boat has a PRM 150 which certainly goes more quietly into gear. I hope it is as reliable as the Technodrive as some have mentioned oil leaks with the PRM. As an aside I have to say that the Mitsibushi engine with the Technodirve seemed a lot quieter than the Barrus Shire 40 we now have. Whether this is a basic fact or due to the installation I am not sure.

 

 

As a follow up to posts on this forum and via the magazine I contacted Vetus, dropping the mag name & my supposed title there, and was given verbal confirmation that the Technodrive box must not be run out of gear for longer than a very short time (can't remember but between 10 & 20 minutes)

 

As far as I am concerned and in view of the BW regulations this makes Technodrive boxes unfit for purpose on canal boats unless they charge their batteries by other means.

 

I understand newish Technodrive boxes have failed with bearing problems and the Warranty has been refused because they were run for longer periods out of gear.

 

Quiet apart from that I have never really trusted Italian engineering.

[dor]

Have to say the Technodrive on mine is absolutely oil tight after 1000 hrs. It is the noise when engaging gear that annoys me.

 

The clonk on going into gear is the most alarming thing, especially when it makes the engine, on fairly firm mountings, visibly jump.

 

My Veus 4.17 had its first gearbox replaced after 300 hours. THe replacement (brand new) sounds nearly as bad after another 150. I know someone else with the same engine/gearbox who had their gearbox replaced at under 300 hours.

 

The Vetus drive plate is also not really suitable for inland use. It has very little give in it and the springs often break. My drive plate was replaced with a R&D one with the rubber insert to help reduce the engaging clonk.

 

As I said before, these gearboxes are just not designed for inland waterway use and a morning's trip up a flight of locks will give it more engaging than a year on a sea-going boat, where they are probably very reliable.

 

Tony's assertion that they should not be run out of gear is further proof that these gearboxes should not be installed in a canal boat.

 

The Vetus engine is a good marinising of the Mitsubishi engine, but unless I was given the option of having the Technodrive replaced with a PRM 150 I would choose a different engine next time and would advise anyone to do the same.