PC Vista question

[alan_fincher]

 

I think the problem when considering any make of computer equipment is that one person's perfect buy is somebody else's 'dog'.

 

The major company I worked for for years would go through a spell of using one manufacturer, until some better offer caused them to switch, but for laptops this usually meant a few years with Dells, then a few with IBMs, before switching back again.

 

Each had its admirers and its haters, particularly in in the teams that had to look after them, but I think at the end of the day it would have been very hard to decide which was the better bet for the business.

 

The Dells got caught up in the "exploding battery" fiascoes, and at one stage IBM hard disks were failing faster than they could get spares. I'd still have been happy to get gifted one of either though - many of the "Stinkpads" being particularly nice machines.

 

That said, when I have had a quick look around some laptops in Currys / PC World / Staples, etc, they look so nasty I'd not touch them with a barge pole. If bits look like they might fall off, then they probably will.

[Chris J W]

I do some programming and need access to DOS for it - the language I use is almost older than the GU! DOS defaults to a US keyboard and, although I've now found a workaround, it is long winded and not automatic.

 

Have you considered using VMWare for your DOS sessions? Used it a while back (admittedly on my Mac, but the principle is the same) to have a wander down memory lane and run an old DOS game or two. Biggest problem I had was remembering all the tips and tricks to use the memory mapping properly to balance the normal and extended space.

 

You mentioned USB issues, too. Yep, I suffer the same 'problem' that Vista gets narked if you're not consistent with which USB port you use - especially for removable drives when it insists that even though it recognises the USB ID it gives a different drive name or, now and then, a different drive name despite being the one you use all the time. Damned annoying when your iTunes library suddenly shrinks as the drive name has changed.

[fender]

I bought a vista A**r laptop from C***t recently to use whilst out cruising.

 

I started off by transferring data from my previous (XP) desktop, then added Office 2007 and endeavoured to activate some of the software off the desktop that I'd downloaded earlier and transferred over. Things like an FTP program and AVG Anti Virus software - I don't trust Norton.

 

PaintShop Pro wouldn't work - it kept popping up messages about colours. I spoke to Corel, who now own PaintShop and was told PaintShop 9 wasn't compatible with Vista so I lashed out and upgraded to the latest PaintShop version. Even that didn't like working, sometimes taking 15 minutes to load! Amazingly, PaintShop 9 started to work after I loaded the later version!

 

 

Paint Shop Pro 9 does work on my laptop's Vista! I dont even run it in compatibility mode. When I start Paint Shop pro 9 Vista just automaticaly switches from Windows Aero to Windows Basic. I imagine that it does depend on the dexterity of the graphics card as well as whether Aero is being used or not. What you could have done is to try running it in compatibility mode as Paint Shop Pro is a bit funny with Vista's graphics management.

[Chris J W]

 

I think the problem when considering any make of computer equipment is that one person's perfect buy is somebody else's 'dog'.

 

Agreed! I used to love my Dell kit, but my mates hated them. The Latitude D600 was cracking laptop, and I miss my Optiplex SFF G260 - even though it was a bit limited for internal expansion.

 

That said, when I have had a quick look around some laptops in Currys / PC World / Staples, etc, they look so nasty I'd not touch them with a barge pole. If bits look like they might fall off, then they probably will.

 

I know what you mean! I had a wander into PCWorld and Currys on Tuesday to see if they had any of the new MacBooks in and all the MS Laptops just looked and felt so, well, tacky.

 

Paint Shop Pro 9 does work on my laptop's Vista! I dont even run it in compatibility mode. When I start Paint Shop pro 9 Vista just automaticaly switches from Windows Aero to Windows Basic. I imagine that it does depend on the dexterity of the graphics card as well as whether Aero is being used or not. What you could have done is to try running it in compatibility mode as Paint Shop Pro is a bit funny with Vista's graphics management.

 

I've got PSP-10 working on Vista without moaning about the graphics (but I honestly can't remember how I did it!) but at the cost of not being able to to directly launch it by double-clicking a pic or right-click-open-with as after it's fired up it complains it can't see the path.

[Gibbo]

Have you considered using VMWare for your DOS sessions? Used it a while back (admittedly on my Mac, but the principle is the same) to have a wander down memory lane and run an old DOS game or two. Biggest problem I had was remembering all the tips and tricks to use the memory mapping properly to balance the normal and extended space.

 

My two favourite CAD packages (one for schematics, one for PCB artwork) are old DOS packages. The newer ones are horribly complicated to use, don't add anything of any real use and the wheels fall off at least hourly. This has been the main reason for keeping loads of old machines around.

 

However with Vista this is no longer necessary. This.... http://www.dosbox.com has been around for a while but always been a bit flaky. Especially the display drivers. Under Vista it works perfectly and I now run ancient DOS packages on the latest vista machines in a window which could never be done reliably on XP. Being able to use Vista for this makes life so much easier than having to scrabble around trying to find replacement parts for broken vintage PCs.

 

You mentioned USB issues, too. Yep, I suffer the same 'problem' that Vista gets narked if you're not consistent with which USB port you use - especially for removable drives when it insists that even though it recognises the USB ID it gives a different drive name or, now and then, a different drive name despite being the one you use all the time. Damned annoying when your iTunes library suddenly shrinks as the drive name has changed.

 

This problem goes back to Win 98SE and continued through 2000 and XP. It isn't something new to Vista.

 

Gibbo

Edited November 27, 2008 by Gibbo

[Chris J W]

My two favourite CAD packages (one for schematics, one for PCB artwork) are old DOS packages. The newer ones are horribly complicated to use, don't add anything of any real use and the wheels fall off at least hourly. This has been the main reason for keeping loads of old machines around.

 

However with Vista this is no longer necessary. This.... http://www.dosbox.com has been around for a while but always been a bit flaky. Especially the display drivers. Under Vista it works perfectly and I now run ancient DOS packages on the latest vista machines in a window which could never be done reliably on XP. Being able to use Vista for this makes life so much easier than having to scrabble around trying to find replacement parts for broken vintage PCs.

 

Used DosBox, but I've found VMWare more 'fun' to use, especially when keeping my hand in creating virtual networks, installations, upgrades, etc. I can tell you - trying to run virtual NT Server, Exchange, and three XP Clients on a 2Ghz 1Gb machine is not the worlds quickest setup ...

 

This (USB) problem goes back to Win 98SE and continued through 2000 and XP. It isn't something new to Vista.

 

True, but it just feels much worse on Vista - possibly because it makes such a song and dance of re-finding drivers and sundry UAC bits having their say. Without doing a proper side-by-side test (and I've really not got the inclination to do so! ) I'd say that Vista is more inconsistent in USB handling. And even if they are equal, there's a definite perception (for me) that Vista is worse.

[smileypete]

I am tempted to stay with XP, but with memory so cheap these days it seems a bit luddite to not move forward, but having to buy a new system is bad enough, without having to shell out on a load of new software as well.

 

Any comments or experiences?

 

Some PC's, laptops will allow will allow you to 'downgrade' the installed copy of Vista to XP.

 

This is because many corporate purchasers want to stick with XP.

 

I reckon every other Microsoft OS is a bit of a turkey

 

Windows 3.1 - good

Windows 95 - turkey (too much £££ memory)

Windows 98 - good

Windows ME - turkey

Windows XP - good

Windows Vista - turkey

Windows ???? - good? (hopefully!)

 

cheers,

Pete. (was on Vista but back to XP)

[Gibbo]

It's odd that some people love Vista and others hate it. As we all do roughly the same things with it I can only see two possible reasons:-

 

1. Some people tried it in its early days when it really was terrible and haven't actually tried it in its later incarnations.

2. Hardware problems that are only shown up by Vista because it's more demanding than XP.

 

Any others?

 

I'm running it on several machines but they are all expensive real branded machines (HP, IBM etc) and haven't had anything like the number of problems I had with XP. I haven't tried it on a cheapo.

 

Gibbo

[grahoom]

It's odd that some people love Vista and others hate it. As we all do roughly the same things with it I can only see two possible reasons:-

 

1. Some people tried it in its early days when it really was terrible and haven't actually tried it in its later incarnations.

2. Hardware problems that are only shown up by Vista because it's more demanding than XP.

 

Any others?

 

I'm running it on several machines but they are all expensive real branded machines (HP, IBM etc) and haven't had anything like the number of problems I had with XP. I haven't tried it on a cheapo.

 

Gibbo

 

Any Mac users running Vista on bootcamp ? If so how well does it run?

[RLWP]

It's odd that some people love Vista and others hate it. As we all do roughly the same things with it I can only see two possible reasons:-

 

1. Some people tried it in its early days when it really was terrible and haven't actually tried it in its later incarnations.

2. Hardware problems that are only shown up by Vista because it's more demanding than XP.

 

Any others?

 

I'm running it on several machines but they are all expensive real branded machines (HP, IBM etc) and haven't had anything like the number of problems I had with XP. I haven't tried it on a cheapo.

 

Gibbo

 

Yes, "Commitment" and "Consistency" are psychological phenomena identified by RB Cialdini in Influence - Science and Practice.

 

Having taken a decision people will then naturally take all of the consequences associated with it. So, if you have bought a Ford, you will naturally begin to take a stance of Fords being better, be more prepared to buy another and so on. To quote Cialdini: 'People add new reasons and justifications to support the wisdom of commitments they have made'.

 

So, having decided to go with operating system "A" then any other operating system becomes progressively worse and "A" better within your mind over time.

 

Richard

 

for "A" read: Vista;XP;Linux;OS-X;UNIX;"enter your choice here"

[Chris J W]

It's odd that some people love Vista and others hate it. As we all do roughly the same things with it I can only see two possible reasons:-

 

1. Some people tried it in its early days when it really was terrible and haven't actually tried it in its later incarnations.

2. Hardware problems that are only shown up by Vista because it's more demanding than XP.

 

Any others?

 

I'm running it on several machines but they are all expensive real branded machines (HP, IBM etc) and haven't had anything like the number of problems I had with XP. I haven't tried it on a cheapo.

 

Gibbo

 

Been using Vista since August 07, all updates, two reinstalls. Still perceive it to be a PITA compared to XP (differing spec machines taken into account)

 

I'll grant that hardware can be an issue - substandard RAM, drives etc, but there's also the good old software bloat effect and the biggest problem of all (IMHO) - massive inconsistencies in installation and removal of software. I've know machines (XP and Vista) that worked perfectly well if 'Y' was installed before 'X' but never if 'X' was installed before 'Y' - registry problems mainly manifesting themselves in, say, program 'X' being the default program for 'Open' and 'Y' being for print. (That's broad brush, I admit)

 

And as for uninstall? God, the amount of garbage that's left behind in files/directories and orphaned registry keys - no wonder the people that make 'Complete' removers manage to make so much money.

 

Possibly there's issues for those of us that have been round the MS block a few times that, knowing what goes on under the hood, are a bit more aware of the problems we see and have more of an informed view of what we want and expect to happen. Maybe that's why I'm gradually moving more to Mac as, if you'll grant the cliche, it just works! However, I do get VERY frustrated when it doesn't do somethings the way I'm used to that MS experience has caught me. So I'm caught in a bit of a Catch-22 sometimes as my experience and perceptions are biased. (And to add a bit of personal context - I've been an IT professional for twenty years, fully MS certified until two years ago, and more qualifications with systems from PR1MOS, Novell, Notes, Banyan, IP and more inbetween - and I'm soooo glad that I'm actually starting to forget most of it!)

 

New, less experienced, or less technically minded have no such perceptions and probably don't understand the frustrations of those that know better.

[alan_fincher]

I reckon every other Microsoft OS is a bit of a turkey

 

Windows 3.1 - good

Windows 95 - turkey (too much £££ memory)

Windows 98 - good

Windows ME - turkey

Windows XP - good

Windows Vista - turkey

Windows ???? - good? (hopefully!)

 

Your theory would work out a treat, had you not left out Windows 2000, (which some love but I found a Turkey because of ridiculous start up times).

 

Personally, despite it's warts, I found 95 a blessing after trying to get 3.1 to behave. We still have a PC in the house that's on 95, I'm shamed to admit, albeit it's not on the network any more, and hence not on the Internet.

 

I don't like the idea that hardware is cheap, therefore it doesn't matter that your OS gobbles vast amounts of it, hence I don't like Vista. I can't see why any GUI based OS needs to use more resources than XP already does, really.

 

Having dabbled with one of the smaller distributions of Linux, (Fluxbuntu), even the Linux camp seems to have lost it's way a bit, and even that really needs more resources than I consider sensible. You apparently can't put the more fully functioned Ubuntu onto a PC with less than 256Mb of RAM, so my hope that I might revitalise an old 128Mb Thinkpad for use on the boat came to nowt, (.... but it would run windows 95 very well indeed!.....)

 

To answer Gibbo's point, on the whole every new Microsoft OS through the whole list that Pete provides, up to XP, has run software that worked on a previous version. I still run stuff perfectly on XP originally supplied for 3.1. I have only ever had one thing cease to work - an exceedingly old copy of something called TurboCAD ceased to work after SP2 got applied to XP - that really is my only problem with backward compatibility.

 

People who supply other software I use have stated my versions will not work on Vista, and it looks like things like PaintShop Pro and Nero Burning software probably will not either.

 

Why should I shell out a lot of extra money on new OS, new hardware and new application software, just to be able to do what I can already do ?

[grahoom]

Your theory would work out a treat, had you not left out Windows 2000, (which some love but I found a Turkey because of ridiculous start up times).

 

Personally, despite it's warts, I found 95 a blessing after trying to get 3.1 to behave. We still have a PC in the house that's on 95, I'm shamed to admit, albeit it's not on the network any more, and hence not on the Internet.

 

I don't like the idea that hardware is cheap, therefore it doesn't matter that your OS gobbles vast amounts of it, hence I don't like Vista. I can't see why any GUI based OS needs to use more resources than XP already does, really.

 

I find it incredible the amount of Bloat OS have.

 

regarding linux - have you looked at - Damn Small Linux

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damn_Small_Linux

 

Damn Small Linux or DSL is a free operating system for the x86 family of personal computers. It was designed to run graphical applications on older PC hardware—for example, machines with 486/early Pentium processors and very little memory. DSL is a Live CD with a size of 50 MB. What originally started as an experiment to see how much software could fit in 50 MB eventually became a full-fledged Linux distribution. It can be installed on storage media with small capacities, like bootable business cards, USB flash drives, various memory cards, and Zip drives.

 

or there are the following (small linux distro's)

 

* Mini Linux

* Feather Linux

* Puppy Linux

Edited November 27, 2008 by grahoom

[Liam]

You missed out NT too!

[Chris J W]

<snip>

 

I don't like the idea that hardware is cheap, therefore it doesn't matter that your OS gobbles vast amounts of it, hence I don't like Vista. I can't see why any GUI based OS needs to use more resources than XP already does, really.

 

<snip>

 

Why should I shell out a lot of extra money on new OS, new hardware and new application software, just to be able to do what I can already do ?

 

Programmers have gotten far lazier over the years in the knowledge that hardware will soon catch-up with poorly written code. (Ahh ... the good old days of the frustration of trying to fit HUGE programs into 8k of RAM!)

 

 

You missed out NT too!

 

I think Alan was thinking purely of "Home" products.

[chris w]

I was privileged once to be seated next to Buzz Aldrin at a dinner and he told me that the TOTAL memory available for the first moon landing was 32K, yes K, adding there was judicious use of many "Do" loops!

 

Chris

[Gibbo]

Programmers have gotten far lazier over the years in the knowledge that hardware will soon catch-up with poorly written code......

 

Obsolutely agree.

 

I write software for microcontrollers and PCs. The software I write for microcontrollers is highly efficient, extremely compact, uses an absolute minimum of resources, is written entirely in assembly langauge, never crashes and takes months for even tiny routines to be completed to my satisfaction. But that's how it has to be with microcontrollers.

 

The software I write for PCs is written in high level langauges, is bloated, lazily and inefficiently coded, slow, cumbersome and drinks memory and disc space. Why? because the resources are there, they are cheap and almost unlimited and it makes writing the software much quicker. Huge packages can be finished in a couple of weeks instead of a couple of years. It's just the way it is.

 

Gibbo

[dor]

Ah, you forgot the golden rule... never buy an A##r!

 

So, are Acer really that bad? Shame as I was tempted by a good deal on one of them. I thought anything would be better than PCworld/currys Packard Bells or Emachines and their other 'own brand' machines.

[Keeping Up]

I've read some very odd tales of Acer laptops on the Vista forum. Having said that, my desktop PC is an Acer, bought from PC World a year ago) and it's been really very good indeed.

 

Edited to add: my previous PC was an e-machines. It was cheap, and it worked OK-ish for over 5 years. By comparison the Acer seems miles better.

Edited November 27, 2008 by Keeping Up

[Marc Harris]

So, are Acer really that bad? Shame as I was tempted by a good deal on one of them. I thought anything would be better than PCworld/currys Packard Bells or Emachines and their other 'own brand' machines.

 

The thing that totally cheesed me off with acer is when i swapped my £1300 8104wlmi to Vista (after downloading all the Vista drivers from Acer). Everything worked fine, except the pcmcia port, the driver just would not work. Despite numerous calls / emails and general badgering by a large group of people all having the same issue, the only response from Acer is that "the driver works" and they would not be producing another version.

 

So despite their claim that it was vista compatible, my shiny new vista disk was worthless on that laptop (as at the time our internet was via a pcmcia 3g modem). Waste of vista purchase, waste of a month of trying endless drivers / reformats / tricks. I was not a happy bunny!

 

The Acer tv we have.... don't ask... it must be running Windows ME in there, it crashes, it white-screens, it freezes, it decides the buttons on the front have nothing to do with it, it wont turn off, it randomly mutes itself, it even has crt burns on the screen!! One day, it's going for a swim!!

 

My current laptop is an Alienware.... am i impressed with my £1400 purchase? nope. don't go there!

 

I've been buying Asus laptops recently, and they've all been good, solid, reliable things. I get so many less calls than from the people with the Acers, but ymmv. www.ebuyer.com is a good place to look for laptops, stay clear of pcworld, curries, comet and all those junk high-street stores.

 

Marc

[Chris J W]

<snip>

The software I write for PCs is written in high level langauges, is bloated ...

<snip>

 

Apologies for the quick but I once got into a heated debate with a fellow at work as he stated that this new language called 'C' was quicker than 'Modula-2', to which I replied that that was bollix as it was down to the efficiency of the compilation and linking process. He would not accept this so we ended up having a drag race.

 

Four programming languages were chosen (APL, FORTRAN-77, C and Modula-2) and we, and two others, did a plain and simple 'Life' program based on a pre-set 15x15 grid over just ten iterations. He was NOT chuffed when the results came in. APL was by the quickest program to write, but actual execution on a freshly booted PR1ME 9955-II in console priority mode had the Fortran version quickest, followed by Modula-2, APL then .. waayyyy behind, the C version. Oh how I laughed!!

Edited November 27, 2008 by Chris J W

[grahoom]

Apologies for the quick but I once got into a heated debate with a fellow at work as he stated that this new language called 'C' was quicker than 'Modula-2', to which I replied that that was bollix as it was down to the efficiency of the compilation and linking process. He would not accept this so we ended up having a drag race.

 

Four programming languages were chosen (APL, FORTRAN-77, C and Modula-2) and we, and two others, did a plain and simple 'Life' program based on a pre-set 15x15 grid over just ten iterations. He was NOT chuffed when the results came in. APL was by the quickest program to write, but actual execution on a freshly booted PR1ME 9955-II in console priority mode had the Fortran version quickest, followed by Modula-2, APL then .. waayyyy behind, the C version. Oh how I laughed!!

 

Modula-2 - now that's a blast from the past - I used to like programming in Modula-2 .... happy days.

[Chris J W]

The thing that totally cheesed me off with acer is when i swapped my £1300 8104wlmi to Vista (after downloading all the Vista drivers from Acer). Everything worked fine, except the pcmcia port, the driver just would not work. Despite numerous calls / emails and general badgering by a large group of people all having the same issue, the only response from Acer is that "the driver works" and they would not be producing another version.

 

There can be something similarly frustrating with the Mac community, too. I recently had a problem with Quicktime suddenly deciding not to play audio. Going though some of the Apple support forums you get the attitude of "No! You MUST be imagining it." Took me a lot of wading through Google to find it was a clash between a recent update and third-party codec.

 

Modula-2 - now that's a blast from the past - I used to like programming in Modula-2 .... happy days.

 

They don't make programming languages like it these days! (Though I do remember it being VERY long winded at times.)

[grahoom]

They don't make programming languages like it these days! (Though I do remember it being VERY long winded at times.)

 

yeah it could be long winded, it was basically a re-work of Pascal (to some extent).

 

I have been toying with the idea of buying a nintendo DS - as I want to brush up on my C (C++) - as I've not done any in years, and thought it would give me a good excuse to buy a DS and do some experimenting - there is a good homebrew community out there for the DS. (wheres the geek smiley... )

[Chris J W]

yeah it could be long winded, it was basically a re-work of Pascal (to some extent).

 

I have been toying with the idea of buying a nintendo DS - as I want to brush up on my C (C++) - as I've not done any in years, and thought it would give me a good excuse to buy a DS and do some experimenting - there is a good homebrew community out there for the DS. (wheres the geek smiley... )

 

I can't believe I was actually proud to have a T-Shirt that proclaimed 'Programming is Wirth IT'