Size Matters .............................

[ihatew0rk]

Well it does to my wife anyway!!!!!!!!!!

 

As per my other posts am now seriously starting to look into living on a boat, credit flop and all that. If I buy a wide beam of 12' wide instead of the more usual 10' what additional problems am I likely to encounter? Feeling is if we can make it as big as possible we can use more free standing furniture and make it feel like existing home, therefore making the switch less traumatic. Ideally would like a 70' x 12' normal style design on Grand Union. Thanks all in anticipation as you'll probably get sick of me over the coming weeks/months, Dave

[blackelle123]

If I buy a wide beam of 12' wide instead of the more usual 10' what additional problems am I likely to encounter? Feeling is if we can make it as big as possible we can use more free standing furniture and make it feel like existing home, therefore making the switch less traumatic.

Are you sure you want to move onto a boat?

There is nothing more traumatic than moving, but if your expecting to have the same or similar type of living conditions as living in house, perhaps you shouldn't move.

Living on a boat is about the lifestyle and the experience, not just having a moveable 'house'! I don't wish to rain on your parade, but having sold up to live on my narrowboat, I know that there is so much more to it!!

[ihatew0rk]

It's actually a combination of both, just to make it as comfortable as possible. I am sure it is totally different, hence the research etc. It's such a major change that you can't try out proerly first. What do you think are the major factors to take into account? Thanks in anticvpation as we need all the help we can get!!

[Gary Peacock]

At 70 x 12ft that's big, it's the kind of thing we build for Europe.

 

If you don't intend cruising it much and are thinking more along the lines of house rather than boat it might make sense but a boat of that size will not come cheap, conventional narrowboat designs become very "iffy" from a scantling calculation point much above 8ft so to do correctly a 12ft boat is not going to be cheap even at a more normal 60ft.

 

You also have to consider that you will be buying a boat that is very restricted by its size, in the North of England most wide boats are restricted to 57ft so if you were at anytime to resell the boat you have a severely reduced customer base.

 

But on the other side of the coin a boat of that size would be very attractive in Europe.

 

If Europe is a possibility you should also consider that if building from new it would be probably be better to go with a design adapted more towards Europe than UK based ditch crawling.

 

There is a bit more info on larger boats here-

 

http://www.ledgardbridge.com/html/broadbeam.html

 

There is also a bit about Dutch Barges there too.

[Athy]

Perhaps a static houseboat would suit your requirements? The large size would not be a drawback but you would still be on the water.

[blackelle123]

It's actually a combination of both, just to make it as comfortable as possible. I am sure it is totally different, hence the research etc. It's such a major change that you can't try out proerly first. What do you think are the major factors to take into account? Thanks in anticvpation as we need all the help we can get!!

 

Have you ever lived on a boat i.e a weekend, or tried a hire boat. I think you should! I found that the complete lack of storage, personal space and room to move was definately the first thing that hit me. Now I have got used to it.

We had to basically get rid of EVERYTHING that we owned and moved onto the boat with basic kitchen quipment, bedding & linen, about 15% of our original wardrobe, a few books and our cd music and DVD collection condensed into folders.

Nothing is instant anymore, it used to be so easy to come home from work and start switching on everything from the TV, central heating and dishwasher. Now much more thought has to be taken - Have you got enough water, does the diesel need topping up, is there enough gas and most importantly - does the loo need to be emptied. Now its winter, you have to think about keeping warm.

 

We had researched (so we thought) before making the move, but I wish we had taken more time, read my blog if you want an insight.

[Lady Muck]

Thats a massive boat by canal standards - it would be a b*gger to move around. If you want something that big, you'd have no chance of a mooring unless you were on the Medway or somewere like that. It probably wouldn't be cheaper than a flat of the same size either. I take it you're not planning to cruise it? If it doesn't have a fully serviced mooring a consideration is how easy it is to move your behemoth to the water point/pump out etc.

 

One reason I like our 57 footer is because it is easy to wind (turn around) nearby our mooring.

 

Your post gave me the heebie jeebies - if you decide to live on a boat because you like boats then you'll probably love it, if you are trying to use it as a substitute bricks and mortar house, it doesn't matter how much freestanding furniture you put onboard it will still be a boat and all the quirkes,foibles and inconveniences of living on a boat will still be there.

 

We found it very hard at first and we both love boats and had lots of experience of them. It wasn't stress of living in a small space, it was the stress of trying to figure out the electrics (we had constant flat batteries because we had no clue) and stuff like that.

 

I agree with Athy, perhaps a static houseboat would suit you better, they come up for sale occasionally.

Edited November 4, 2008 by Lady Muck

[barge sara]

Ideally would like a 70' x 12' normal style design on Grand Union.

 

You don't say whether you have any boat handling experience. If not, and you plan to cruise a boat that size I suggest you arrange to stand at the helm of a big barge ASAP and certainly before you commit to having one built! You may find it quite scary first time.....

Two possibilities occur:

1. The DBA occasionally run weekends for people who are thinking of buying barges, giving them the opportunity to visit member's barges.

2. A barge handling course on a big boat, probably in France. Have a look at www.bargehandling.com

 

HTH.

 

John MV Sara.

[bottle]

Ihatework

 

By now I think you will be getting the gist, to live on a boat you need to like boating and the living comes second.

 

It is not a cheap alternative to living on land.

 

The size of boat you are thinking of, is not a boat but, a small ship.

 

May I suggest that you hire for at least a week, out of season, a narrowboat.

 

I know you wish to have a widebeam but the cost would be high.

[Ex- Member]

We have a 10/6 wide beam, TBH I would never bother with anything over that if you want to cruise regularly. It really doesn't give you that much more space, and 12 f/t + boat is a pig to handle. Our 10/6 is very manoeuvrable but spacious at the same time, in fact the floor space available is more than my dads 1 bedroom council flat. I think 10/6 is the best maximum compromise if you want to cruise the canals with some good living space. If you're happy to moor rather than cruise, then 12 or 12/6 even would be an ideal floating bungalow. It really depends on what you want to do.

 

For us the cost of living on a boat will be much cheaper than on land. Just council tax and rent/mortgage alone would save us £125 per week let alone getting rid of the car and associated running costs around another £50 per week. We're planning on a lot of solar energy supply which will keep future diesel costs down. Our boat is bought and fully paid for though so no loans mortgages and the like. Unfortunately we'll have to wait another year plus until we get on the water full time, but looking forward to it immensely.

[david and julie]

We have a 10/6 wide beam,

I've seen a few widebeam boats referred to as being 10ft that actually measure 10ft-6".

 

Anyone any idea if there is a standard(ish) size or do they vary from builder to builder?

Edited November 4, 2008 by david and julie

[ihatew0rk]

Thanks all for your replies. I take it therefore that width is more of a restriction to length? ie would a 70' x 10' be a more suitable compromise? We've been oin board a few 60'x10' boats and we were hoping to buy a lined, wired & hetaed boat to finish off ourselves, ie kitchen (sorry galley) & bathroom (ok heads!). I hold an ICC for sail & power and have previously owned pleasure boats but not residential type. With ipods & e-books etc the storage of non-essentail stuff doesn't worry me. I shall have to continue working and do want to cruise at least 2 days per week. The aim is a complete lifestyle change, ie very little m ortgage vastly reduced borrowings/costs etc enabling me to take a job at a lower salary. This is becoming a bit Mills & Boon, sorry about that. Anyway please keep the advice coming, any ideas when the next DBA open weekend is, can't find it on there website? Thanks again all, Dave

[alan_fincher]

You still have things to learn about the canals....

 

Kitchens are usually called kitchens.

Bathrooms are usually called bathrooms.

Toilets are usually called toilets.

 

And while we are at it the boat generally has a front, back, left and right.

 

Alan

[Strads]

Groans...

 

there are enough 55/60 wide beams on the lower GU as it is... playing at CC, most at least are considerate,, but 70ft,,, more than a tadge awkward to turn in a number of the winding holes, never mind pass if you find them coming at you on their fortnightly bridge hop, - especially when you (US) cant get over into the shallows..

 

still could provide a certain spectator sport element to baance it out,,,

 

each to their own as they say, but suspect that size will be a lonely club

[barge sara]

any ideas when the next DBA open weekend is, can't find it on there website?

 

Gorinchem, Holland. 24-27 April 2009.

[blackrose]

We have a 10/6 wide beam, TBH I would never bother with anything over that if you want to cruise regularly. It really doesn't give you that much more space, and 12 f/t + boat is a pig to handle.

 

I agree with a lot of what people have said on this thread - especially about the need to actually like boats in order to live on one happily.

 

However I've got to disagree with you on this one Julynian. My boat is 12' wide and it gives me loads more space than a 10ft 6in beam boat (60ft2 over a 40ft interior cabin length). A neighbour of mine with a 10ft beam boat came on board mine and he couldn't believe the difference.

 

Also a 12ft beam boat doesn't have to be a pig to handle - mine certainly isn't and it's a bog standard Liverpool Boat. I can turn my boat around at idling speed in just over it's own length (57ft) without the bow thruster. In fact it's very forgiving of my mistakes and handles much better than my old 45ft Springer (but I guess that's not saying very much )

 

Edit: I would say that a 70ft widebeam is too long to be manouvrable - 60ft is about the maximum length I'd want.

Edited November 4, 2008 by blackrose

[Gary Peacock]

I've seen a few widebeam boats referred to as being 10ft that actually measure 10ft-6".

 

Anyone any idea if there is a standard(ish) size or do they vary from builder to builder?

 

You can basically build anything but the bigger it is the more complex the engineering and cost.

 

For a number of years wide boats had issues that fortunately in most cases now are being addressed.

 

These being mainly down to the nature of the inland waterways builders, building narrowboats is easy the odd proportions mean that the engineering is minimal if you can build a good skip or oil tank you should be able to build a fair attempt at a narrowboat.

 

Since the Recreational Craft Directive came into place we have had legal requirements for the design and construction of narrowboats but fortunately for us builders narrowboats are such a weird oddity in terms of beam x length that it was quickly discovered that the new requirements that were worked out along the lines of a more normally proportioned boat are literally swamped by the length to beam ration. In effect this means that even the worst built narrowboat will normally meet the required standard. (So most builders gave a sigh of relief and carried on building with no changes!)

 

However with the increased demand for broad beam boats a problem rapidly became apparent.

When narrowboat builders simply built a 10 or 12ft boat in exactly the same way they built narrowboats, many assumed or chose to ignore the legal requirements because after all nearly every narrowboat was a guaranteed pass so why may work?

 

The difference was that past the 8ft beam point the boats proportions began to suddenly be "real" boat proportions and applying the calculations on completed boats often resulted in a big fat Freddy Fail!

 

While in real terms on the water these boats were probably fairly safe there were a few interesting incidents while craning them where the structural weakness resulted in some amusing thing happening.

 

In the blue water world this kind of non conformity would be taken far more serious probably due to the potential for loss of life while in the ditch crawling world both builders and Mr & Mrs Billy Boater seemed to accept the practice quite happily.

 

Over the last 3 years or so with the profile of the Recreation Craft Directive being raised and the actual procecution of at least one broad beam boat builder a lot of the industry sat up and began to take note of the potential fines and prison sentence that being creative with the Recreational Craft Directive can result in. (But not all!)

 

So back to the original question up to about 11ft beam it is possible to build a good relatively well engineered and conforming boat based on a slightly beefed up narrowboat type construction method.

 

We build 10 & 11ft with very little real difference in price and will even add 6 inch to either of those for free. (You gain 6 inch by altering the side folds and quite often you save the extra 6inch from the scrap bin anyway!)

 

But 12ft, 13ft and 14ft boats are alarmingly more expensive, this comes down to the fact we actually change the construction and engineering design above 11ft 6inch to allow the boats still to comply.

 

So in my view based on the way we build them a 10ft 6inch boat would be my choice while if space is a must 11ft 6inch is the most sensible if on a budget because you would pay quite a lot more for a 12ft one that crosses the line we draw in the sand for the two different designs.

Edited November 4, 2008 by Gary Peacock

[ihatew0rk]

Thnaks Gary,

 

Have just been perusing your website (1 of the best I have to say!). Based on your comments and what is on there it would seem that 60x12 is the maximum sensible size to go for.

 

Do you do Part fitted/finished boats as well as fully done?

 

Thanks again for your help.

 

Dave

[AMModels]

Does that mean then that a boat similar to Progress or Swan (FMC's wide steamer) would no longer be built on safety grounds or were they more along the 10-12' width as opposed to 14' wide?

[sueb]

Thnaks Gary,

 

Have just been perusing your website (1 of the best I have to say!). Based on your comments and what is on there it would seem that 60x12 is the maximum sensible size to go for.

 

Do you do Part fitted/finished boats as well as fully done?

 

Thanks again for your help.

 

Dave

 

BW are in the process of changing the rules again. You need a mooring if you are staying in one area, moving every 14 days is harder than it sounds especially with a large boat. You will need room to moor wherever you move to. You also have no security, most people underestimate the importance of this.

Good luck

Sue

[Gary Peacock]

Thnaks Gary,

 

Have just been perusing your website (1 of the best I have to say!). Based on your comments and what is on there it would seem that 60x12 is the maximum sensible size to go for.

 

Do you do Part fitted/finished boats as well as fully done?

 

Thanks again for your help.

 

Dave

 

Yes we can do anything from a bare hull onwards but we mainly do near completed boats with RCD documentation just leaving the simple jobs that don't fall under the RCD's remit to complete.

Edited November 5, 2008 by Gary Peacock

[elessina]

any ideas when the next DBA open weekend is, can't find it on there website?

......Gorinchem, Holland. 24-27 April 2009.

DBA Events web page is here

There will be a visitors day at the Bisham Abbey rally (Aug bank holiday Sunday)

 

We have a 60ft x 12'6" barge on the Thames. I would not change the width, but wish when cruising we were a little shorter..... but then wish we were longer when moored up for long periods!! Generally most look for a crew of more than 2 when cruising on a barge longer than around 60ft.

 

There are a lot more things to go wrong on a boat than a house, this can make living on board much more complicated, especially if not DIY minded as repairs are always more expensive Just think of the loo, rarely a problem in a house, always an issue on boats.

 

Ian

Elessina

[david and julie]

We build 10 & 11ft with very little real difference in price and will even add 6 inch to either of those for free. (You gain 6 inch by altering the side folds and quite often you save the extra 6inch from the scrap bin anyway!)

So what your saying Gary is that if we take two different boats, one at 10' and one at 10'- 6" theres a good chance the base plates are the same width, but the sides just taper differently?

 

Does the fold(to achieve the taper)also serve to make the sides more rigid? Would a boat without a taper, ie completetly square sides, need any additional strengthening to make up for the lack of a the second fold?

 

I'm thinking of changing to a wider boat eventually and I'm trying to ascertain whether square sides, (to give more internal floorspace) would be worth the extra cost involved.

[Gary Peacock]

So what your saying Gary is that if we take two different boats, one at 10' and one at 10'- 6" theres a good chance the base plates are the same width, but the sides just taper differently?

 

Does the fold(to achieve the taper)also serve to make the sides more rigid? Would a boat without a taper, ie completetly square sides, need any additional strengthening to make up for the lack of a the second fold?

 

I'm thinking of changing to a wider boat eventually and I'm trying to ascertain whether square sides, (to give more internal floorspace) would be worth the extra cost involved.

 

Yes that's it exactly the fold increases the rigidity of the design without it you have to use other methods to achieve it.

 

The other concern is the base plate if you want simplicity you go for a narrowboat style 2 piece base plate but unfortunately at much above 10ft you can no longer do that because you can't get or transport steel plates of that size. So you then have to construct the base plate from a number of plates either running across the beam or in staggered patch work fashion, this obvious takes a long time and influences the end price.

[david and julie]

Thanks for your reply Gary, you've given me food for thought,to be honest I'd prefer a DB but the wife likes fat narrowboats.

 

As a compromise we will probably go for a boat along the lines of your hybrid style or something like Floaters boat here, albeit it at only about 10ft wide.

http://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=14300I

 

We won't be starting this for about another year, but intend to take and maybe even keep the boat in Europe if all goes well.