elessina

DBA Events web page is here There will be a visitors day at the Bisham Abbey rally (Aug bank holiday Sunday) We have a 60ft x 12'6" barge on the Thames. I would not change the width, but wish when cruising we were a little shorter..... but then wish we were longer when moored up for long periods!! Generally most look for a crew of more than 2 when cruising on a barge longer than around 60ft. There are a lot more things to go wrong on a boat than a house, this can make living on board much more complicated, especially if not DIY minded as repairs are always more expensive Just think of the loo, rarely a problem in a house, always an issue on boats. Ian Elessina

Providing that we do not use the washing machine, or Vac, or hairdryer or iron or electric kettle etc. our daily consumption is around 1000wh per day. More if we watch a few hours of tv in the evening. We have a large battery bank (910ah). The fridge and freezer consumes around 700wh per day (more when sunny = hot, less when cloudy = cooler). Ian

Ernie, We have 2 x Kyocera 130W 12V panels and a Steca PR1515 controller, wired up to give 24v. Installed mid May, so far we are very pleased with them. I have installed them in a frame, that enables me to slightly tilt them (20 deg) to (manually) follow the sun. This helps, and often gives 20% more power than when flat. The Kyocera panels are Polycrystalline, which are around half the size of Amorphous panels, but slightly more expensive. Since we are 24v I will quote everything in watts. From mid May to mid June we averaged 730wh per day from the panels Mid June to mid July we averaged 923wh per day from the panels Generally if it is a rainy day we get around 450wh in a day, reasonably sunny day around 1300wh in a day. We have a Shoreline 128 litre fridge with 16 ltr freezer and a Shoreline 93 ltr freezer. On every occasion we have left the boat (up to a week) with everything switched off except fridge and freezer we have returned with more power in the batteries than when we left.... A nice feeling!. We purchased the panels through the internet, and found Energy & Environment Ltd at Manchester the cheapest Tel : + 44 161 881 1383 www.energyenv.co.uk Hope this helps in your decision making Ian Elessina

We have 2 x 130w solar panels. Over the last two weeks we have had a mixture of sunny and cloudy days. Best day so far, on an almost clear sunny day, we got 1040watts in a day output from the two panels (520w per panel) On a cloudy day we get around 250wats from the two panels. I can (and do) angle the panels towards the sun but only at an approx angle of 15 degrees from the horizontal. When I do this we get between 10 and 20% increase in power. May average, the panels will run the fridge, LED lighting, water pumps etc. They certainly are not sufficient to keep the batteries topped up when running hair dryers, Washing machines, Irons, Vacs etc. On a sunny day they will run the TV for a few hours. More power from the panels will likely be available (sun dependant) in June, July and August. Sometime we moor up close to trees (shade), we are then down to 250w per day, even on a sunny day. I have given figures in Watts because we are 24v. If you wish convert to Amp hours at 12v divide the watts figure by 12. Ian, Elessina

I had a similar problem, simply because I had over tightened the T handle. On my separator is a thick washer (approx 3mm thick). When over tightened it deformed. I simply loosened it off a little. Only needs a slight tightening. Worth checking to see if it is the same. Ian Elessina

When first installed we used to get water out of the Pressure relief valve. Our Whale pump was 3bar, pressure relief valve was 3 bar!!!!. The Whale pump has a little grub screw under a QC label that can adjust the pressure (info from Whale direct), this I did, but still water came out of the pressure relief valve. I then removed a non return valve I had installed in the cold water feed to the calorifier (this to stop hot water running back down the cold water supply pipe when the calorifier was hot). No problems with the Pressure relief valve since. This I believe is because the (long length) of cold water supply pipe back to expansion tank from the calorifier acts as a pressure cylinder (when the water gets hot, the pressure increases). Replacement pump is well below 3bar, (I think 1.5bar). I did not want another 3 bar pump! Our calorifier is also 3 bar design, 5 bar max..... another reason for a lower pressure pump. Anyone with a Whale 18l/min pump needs to be aware it is 3bar and that most PRV and calorifiers are 3bar rated..... we were not at the time of purchase (3 years ago). Ian

A bit late, but... After around 3 years we had the same problem with our Whale pump. I installed a non return valve on the inlet side, this worked for 6 months, until the pump started cycling again, this time water was dripping from the pump body. Likely the extra pressure on the pump caused by the non return valve was its eventual failure. I replaced the Whale with a Jabasco ParMax3 (and removed the NRV) this is much quieter than the Whale. It does look like 3 years is the normal life time when used a lot. Some say 24v equipment is more durable than 12v.... our pump was 24v!. Ian

Thats the problem with 1500rpm generators, they need more valuable on board space. I am advised that Fischer Panda service intervals for their 3000 rpm generators is 150 hours, Northern Lights 1500 rpms are 250 hrs. I noticed in Victrons generator test that you do not save much fuel when running any generator at lower outputs Ian

Map of UK canal and rivers showing length and width restrictions here Ian Elessina

Interesting, $8,502 plus $1,843 for the sound enlosure at 2005 prices,direct from USA. Rather noisy. with a noise level of 70 to 75 Dba (compared to 54 Dba of the Fischer Panda AC unit). I could not see sound enclosure size, but looks on the large size (compared to Fischer Pandas 520x370x520) Ian

Also look at the price, Fischer Pandas 3.2Kw 12v DC unit sells for around £8,000. Their 3.8Kw AC unit is around £4,000 Ian

I believe it is often double, so 3.6Kw required, just for a couple of seconds. Ian

We purchased two 8v to 30v LED G4 replacements about 5 months ago, and have sine purchased a further 10. We did have some initial problems with the 1st batch, and Ultraleds replaced them. So far no more problems. We had a cool white and a warm white initially, but ordered 10 x cool whites. Cool whites are white, warm are yellow and not quite so bright. We have seen 30v on charge, and had no problems with the them at this voltage. They consume around 1w. Ultalights link here Ian Elessina

Yes, but the only real alternatve is a £5K+ generator. We have tried the £500 petrol generator, and the £2K Electrolux travel power, now looking at a £5K+ generator. Ian

I find being able to see the bow helps, this can be done with a pole at the bow (we have a very light - cheap - flag on it, so indicating the wind direction as well). Try it with a stick, long enough so you can see it from the helm. If it helps (and it does for me) then get a nice flag pole. Ian

Victrons Generator test indicate that you do not need a large generator, and point to the Fischer Panda 4000i (a 4Kw unit) being able to run electric cookers etc (up to 13Kw loads) through the Victron. See the Victron Generator Test on another thread for details and link to report. The generator will need to run for long periods (6 to 9 hrs per day), but if not live aboard this would not be a problem as I believe the unit is designed for 5,000hr use before major overhaul. I do not like gas on board, but still feel it is the best option for cooking. Ian

I believe it means that, with generator running, a 1.8Kw elecrtric motor was switched on, this overloaded the generator, cutting it out. A 1.8Kw electric motor, needs more than 1.8Kw on start up. Ian

Victron have done some tests on around 20 diesel Generators, varying in size from 3.0Kw to 10Kw in size Since most of us are only interested in compact ones, I have taken some results as shown below:- Generator Make......... Output voltage.........Frequency...... Relative Sound Levels... Comments..................... RPM Fischer Panda 4000i.... 227v to 230v......... 49.8 to 50.2 hz........... 69................... load tested up to 12Kw......2800 Mastervolt Whisper 3.5....208 to 245v........49 to 52.5hz............... 77...................Did not start 1.8Kw motor.. 3,000 Paguro 4000...................220 to 242v..........50 to 51.5hz.................75...................Did not start 1.8Kw motor... 3000 Northern Lights M673LD2..224 to 233v.......50 to 54.5hz.............66.................... None................................ 1,500 Observations:- All ran the Victron Muli unit, all had very similar fuel consumption figures at same loads The Mastervolt does not come out very well, Northern Lights does well, but but highest hz (54.5) and not so compact as the others The Fisher Panda looks best amongst the compact models, it can also be run at 2000rpm and can have auto start You can see the test here here then click on second bullet point down... presentation used... victron energy Ian Elessina

Hi David, Thanks for info, both here and within the other posting. The Mastervolt does seem to be as good as any, better than most, and is a nice compact unit. Ian

You would need a very big generator (the compact ones have around 5 hp motors), approx same size as your engine, if not bigger for inefficiencies, so may as well go down the Electrolux TravelPower route!!!!Ian Yes you can, a good idea if having a generatorIan

We are just about ready to ditch our Electrolux Travel Power and install a compact diesel generator, probably the Mastervolt 3.5Kw unit, connected up to the skin tank. Some of my own personal thoughts on this ‘generation subject’ below:- The Travel Power:- • The Travel Power needs relatively high engine revs to get 3.5KW out of it. At normal cruising speed we are lucky to get 1Kw, sometimes much less. • We find that after a short period of time, the battery charge amps from the Travelpower (via Victron Multiplus charger) reduces significantly, likely because the ‘intelligent’ charger sees amps from the alternator and thinks (wrongly) the batteries are fuller than they actually are….. in other words charging batteries simultaneously from alternator and 240v charger does not work very well. • With the upcoming red diesel tax changes in November, I feel I want to restrict engine hours to cruising only, so if challenged I can prove approx fuel used for propulsion, the rest being heat and generation. The pros and cons of a 3000 rpm or 1500 rpm generator:- • There are no ‘compact’ 1,500 rpm generators. Space for a fixed generator is not easy to find (and that on a 60ft Dutch Barge, so narrowboat even harder!), so therefore the diesel generator MUST be compact. As much as I would like a 1500 rpm Northern Lights, physical size rules it out as their smallest unit in acoustic enclosure is 825x538x552 (l,w,h) and will not fit into my engine room, this compared to Mastervolts (505x400x500) and Fisher Pandas (520x370x520), which will fit (both of these are 3,000rpm units) • Researching generators (including search on this forum) indicate that most 3000rpm generator are good for 10,000hrs before a major overhaul (3 hrs per day every day for 10 years), We will; not be using it anywhere near that much. • I do know of a few people with Mastervolt 3,000rpm units, and are happy with them….( But I know more with Northern Lights, and they highly recommend them) • Our 3000 Victron Multiplus has a 70amp (at 24v) battery charger, to run this it will need 2Kw to 2.5Kw of power, any generator over 2.5Kw will not charge up the batteries any quicker (but will allow other simultaneous use eg. Washing machine). Our incoming 240v supply is limited to 16A (3.5KW), so a 3.5Kw generator (3Kw nominal output, 6Kw peak) will be amply sufficient for us (as we cook on gas) and that anything large will be wasted. We could still put the washing m/c on, but during the cycle sometimes we would not get a full (70a) charge, but all this is automatically done within the Victron, Experience running our washing m/c tells me that although it takes up to 2Kw, it does not for long periods, most of the time it only takes around 500w. • Research indicates that generators should be run with a minimum 70% loading. So a 6Kw generator would need a minimum 4.2Kw, if not cooking electric, that is a lot of power to use continuously over a few hours. We use around 700wh per day (incl fridge, freezer, tv, lights pumps etc), excluding 1Kw water heater, washing m/c, Vac, Iron, hair dryer etc, when these are used, we average around 2Kw per day, and 5Kw per day if totally reliant on electric for water heating (eg no cruising at all). • According to manufacturers data, at full load a typical 3.5Kw compact will use 1.2litres of fuel per hour. A typical 6Kw 1500rpm generator will use over double this amount. • Manufacturers data show very little difference in noise levels between 1500 rpm and 3000rpm units ….. So I have convinced myself that a 3000 rpm has as many benefits as a 1,500 rpm generator,… but if I had the space, I would probably go for the 1500 Northern Lights unit, but since this is too large to fit it will be a compact 3,000rpm unit!!! Alternatives to a compact generator. A portable Honda petrol / LPG generator. We tried a 3000w Kipor (output not smooth enough to run the Victron), but even so, found it awkward to use (needs petrol!!!, needs cover when raining, must be careful with exhaust, needs to be stored somewhere safe but not inside!!, etc.). Solar / wind panels. If we spent £5,000 (approx cost of a compact generator) on solar panels, these would go a long way in providing our electric needs, in summer. But we would then have lots of panels, which may be unsightly and possibly prone to theft, unless bolted down, but if bolted down can not easily be moved to face the sun. Most canals / rivers provide shelter from the wind (trees, buildings, hills around, so not good for wind generation. Since I do not have a ‘spare’ sea cock, and do not want to dry dock again to install one (then have blocked filters etc), I am looking into skin tank cooling. One Mastervolt agent said not possible without spending £7.5k and then without a warranty, another said we regularly install them and have quoted me £4k + VAT, and since they are fairly local I will be visiting them soon to check out finer details, then hopefully buy and install it. I also know someone with a generator who has connected its cooling water into their central heating water system. Great in winter (free heating), they say even in summer isolating the radiators and running it through the hot water calorifier is still ok for at around an hour, so I might try this, as it would be very easy to connect into, and has the benefit of free heating in the cooler mornings and evenings (before 8:00pm of course). With a two way valve it could be connected to either keel cooling or central heating, but I see that this could easily go wrongly if incorrectly set and lead to overheating of one or the other. Just my thoughts, any other thoughts / advice appreciated. Ian Elessina

We have tried a couple of the 30v LED Ultraleds, as replacements in our individually switched downlighters , after 2 months use (and a couple of initial problems which resulted in quick replacements) I am now looking to get 10 more LEDs from Ultraleds. In my opinion the warm LEDs give around 70% light of a 10w Halogen. The cold LEDs give 80%. Both consume 1w, so consume just one tenth of the power of a halogen. We have decided we prefer the cold LEDs, but as said, I would also suggest getting one of each and deciding which you prefer. The 30v LEDs are suitable for 12v and 24v systems, I have seen a 31v charge with no problems so far. The other good point about the LEDs is that they are much cooler running. Some of our halogen downlighters have burnt reflectors, which could be dangerous if the reflector was close to a combustible material (wood, some insulations etc). Ian Elessina

It is an equalisation / absorption charge. It occurs about once per week, maybe even once per month. I could set it to a lower charge (Victron Multiplus) but the supplier of the batteries (2v traction ex submarine ones) advised a 32.5v max charge, which I have reduced to 32v as I feel it reduces life of some equipment. I am thinking about reducing the voltage even further, but battery life is more important than a £2 light bulb.IanElessina We have used standard domestic light switches. No problems after 3 years use. We use them to turn on a bank of lights (4 lights in the galley) but each light is also switchable (built in micro switch) so when on battery power we can reduce the amount switched on.Ian Elessina

All of our light fittings were 12v, with 12v 10w tungsten bulbs. I replaced the bulbs with 24v 10w tungstens. After nearly 3 years we have some of the original 24v bulbs still in place with around half having to be replaced (blown). Our battery charger charges up to 32v, so I guess this reduces life expectancy. We have recently installed a couple of 30v LED lamps, consuming 1w each. So far so good, just a touch less output than the 10w tungstens. Ian Elessina