Generator Help...

[Cinimod]

Hi...

 

We have pretty much all we need running off the 12v system now...

• LCD TV (Max 5A with DVD playing)
  
• 2 x Laptops (via 12v to 19v adapters from Maplins)
  
• 1 x Wireless Internet Router (12v 1A)
  
• 2 x phone chargers (?Minimal?)
  
• 1 x Fridge... (Lots of power)...
  
• (plus the radio if that is on...)
  

 

Now - we can run this lot no problem.

But as we do not have an electric hook up we need to charge currently using the engine.

The bonus to charging using the engine is it does the hot water too, but how much fuel does the engine typically use per hour?

Drawbacks?

• The engine is pretty noisy in the boat!
  
• The engine is noisy for the neighbours
  
• I believe it is not good for the engine to run it with no load
  

 

What we are considering is a generator - now I think we have 2 options -

1. Use the genny to charge the batteries and take power as 12v only
   
2. Use the genny to supply 240v to run applicances and also the battery charge unit (which we use when on mains)
   

The issue I see is that looking at the generators their direct 12v output appears to only be about 8.5Amps tops... which I do not think is enough to charge up the batteries whilst we are using the 2 laptops and LCD TV(as a 2nd monitor) at the same time

 

Are any of these any good? Or can anyone recommend a different genny?

 

Kipor IG2000

Whole list of eBay ones...

 

ANY help in making this decision is greatly appreciated.

 

Thank

 

The other thing we are considering is 360w worth of solar panels to cover most of our needs - but this is going to attract an outlay of around £1k and does not help us if we need more power at night!

[chris w]

I can't recommend a particular genny but whichever one you use, ensure you use it to run a mains charger. Don't ever try to charge your batteries from the 12v DC (8A) output. You will waste a lot of genny fuel getting nowhere.

 

Re solar panels. If one runs the maths, and taking average lighting conditions and 5 hours use per day, 360W of solar panels will provide around 40AH of charge actually into the batteries.

 

Calculation: 360W will be the maximum output in bright sunlight. So say 50% average sunlight (180W) and a charge voltage of 14v this gives about 12A of charge current. Over 5 hours per day, this equates to 60AH but, due to battery physics, only 70% of this will result in useful charge actually inside the battery. So the net result is around 40AH per day. You will be using around 100AH per day based on the equipment you describe including lights, pumps etc. (The fridge will use about 50AH per day on its own). I always reckon that, to be totally reliant on solar, one needs about 1KW of solar panels on a typical narrowboat.

 

Chris

Edited October 13, 2008 by chris w

[alan_fincher]

I'm no expert, (never having owned a generator yet), but from what I understand, if one of your motivations to move away from engine generation is noise, then Kipor are hardly a good choice.

 

Aren't they universally reported as pretty noisy ?

 

The problem is that often the nice quiet ones are also those with a mouthwatering price tag.

[larkshall]

Obtain a mains generator and charge batteries via a mains charger. This means you dont waste fuel, and gives you a wide and varied choice of batter chargers to suite need and pocket

 

It also means you can power the odd device you may use once in a while, (electric drill, or other power tools), domestic devices, (mixers, juicers, coffee makers), or even a vacuum cleaner.

 

I'd opt for a 2kw honda silent type for ultimate flexibility in your position.

[Chris Pink]

1. Use the genny to charge the batteries and take power as 12v only
   
2. Use the genny to supply 240v to run applicances and also the battery charge unit (which we use when on mains)
   

 

My recommendation would be a Honda EU10i and, as chris w says, a good battery charger. You can run up to 50A charger on this which should do what you want and give you an auxiliary 240V output as well. Mine, although rated at 800W runs for instance a 1200W vacuum cleaner fine (though i suspect a little less powerful than it might). you can also use a number of lesser 240V stuff, eg laptop chargers while the batteries are charging.

 

I have a vintage engine and it whinges if i use it to charge batteries alone.

 

The Honda is virtually silent and I have yet to hear any bad about them.

Edited October 13, 2008 by Chris Pink

[blackrose]

I had a EU10i (now sold), but I would recommend a EU20i because if you end up wanting to use other bigger mains appliances at the same time it gives you that possibility. Also at 1.6kw rated output it will run a small washing machine if you want (without running the charger at the same time).

 

Hondas are not cheap - the best deals are from Tidy Co, Just Generators & Edge Technology

Edited October 13, 2008 by blackrose

[Chris Pink]

I had a EU10i (now sold), but I would recommend a EU20i because if you end up wanting to use other bigger mains appliances at the same time it gives you that possibility.

 

What's the fuel consumption like between the two?

[steelaway]

 

What we are considering is a generator - now I think we have 2 options -

1. Use the genny to charge the batteries and take power as 12v only
   
2. Use the genny to supply 240v to run applicances and also the battery charge unit (which we use when on mains)
   

The issue I see is that looking at the generators their direct 12v output appears to only be about 8.5Amps tops... which I do not think is enough to charge up the batteries whilst we are using the 2 laptops and LCD TV(as a 2nd monitor) at the same time

 

 

 

ANY help in making this decision is greatly appreciated.

 

Thank

 

Hi There

 

You will also need a 30-40 amp mains charger - idealy the 3 stage type

 

Alex

Edited October 13, 2008 by steelaway

[Cinimod]

Thank you for all your help and suggestions.

 

Good news is - we already have a Sterling 1230 (12v 30amp) charger, so I think that side of things is taken care of.

 

The call really comes down to which gennie.

 

My issue really is the cost of the Honda and is it REALLY that much better.

 

I guess in for a penny in for a pound it would be the Eu20i that we would go for - which is coming in at around £880 from Edge, £890 from Just Gen and £873 from Tidy - this is a 'tidy' sum of money.

 

Looking on eBay there is this Kipor 2000 generator, which appears to be only slightly louder and have only slightly higher fuel consumption - the price for this piece of kit - around £300 (here is the link)

 

Can you see my issue?

 

I know the Honda comes with a 5yr warranty, but I could buy a couple of the Kipors and still be in pocket during that time... the issue is does 2db really make that much of a difference - I can house it in the engine bay, so that will muffle it too... its enough to drive you crazy!

[alan_fincher]

.....there is this Kipor 2000 generator, which appears to be only slightly louder.....

How are you judging that, though ?

 

If it relates to decibels, don't forget this is one of the most misunderstood "units" around.....

 

Having heard the Hondas and the Kipors, I'd be amazed if the latter is really only slightly louder. (It certainly doesn't sound like it - some of the little Hondas are remarkably quiet....)

[jelunga]

In my view mounting an air cooled petrol generator will be:-

 

 

 

a) Fatal to the generator due to lack of cooling

 

Fatal to the boater due to very high risk of explosion due to petrol fumes

 

c) Fatal to the boater due to exhaust gas poisoning.

 

Just my view

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thank you for all your help and suggestions.

 

Good news is - we already have a Sterling 1230 (12v 30amp) charger, so I think that side of things is taken care of.

 

The call really comes down to which gennie.

 

My issue really is the cost of the Honda and is it REALLY that much better.

 

I guess in for a penny in for a pound it would be the Eu20i that we would go for - which is coming in at around £880 from Edge, £890 from Just Gen and £873 from Tidy - this is a 'tidy' sum of money.

 

Looking on eBay there is this Kipor 2000 generator, which appears to be only slightly louder and have only slightly higher fuel consumption - the price for this piece of kit - around £300 (here is the link)

 

Can you see my issue?

 

I know the Honda comes with a 5yr warranty, but I could buy a couple of the Kipors and still be in pocket during that time... the issue is does 2db really make that much of a difference - I can house it in the engine bay, so that will muffle it too... its enough to drive you crazy!

Edited October 13, 2008 by jelunga

[Cinimod]

In my view mounting an air cooled petrol generator will be:-

 

a ) Fatal to the generator due to lack of cooling

b ) Fatal to the boater due to very high risk of explosion due to petrol fumes

c ) Fatal to the boater due to exhaust gas poisoning.

 

We have a cruiser stern, I guess this would still be applicable...

 

 

Having heard the Hondas and the Kipors, I'd be amazed if the latter is really only slightly louder. (It certainly doesn't sound like it - some of the little Hondas are remarkably quiet....)

 

So - is there any way to make the Kipors quieter?

Is there anywhere to see them together to be able to compare them to see what we would be willing to put up with?

 

Problem is we would really like to sort it this week so we have a gennie for next week as we are running the engine excessively at the moment to power everything - it does not help that the house batteries are not wired correctly (+ve and -ve taken from the same battery at the end, rather than opposite corners!) which is something else I need to sort as soon as I can get to a store to get some cable.

 

Thanks again for all your input - very useful.

[Proper Job]

My situation is very similar to Chris Pink

 

Ye Olde engine doesn't like being run just for battery charging so I looked at generators.

 

I plumped for the Honda EU 20i. They are as quiet as they come and don't upset the surrounding boats to much. From what I've see/heard, the Kippor's are much noisier.

 

I would advise you went for the 20 rather than the 10. It is handy if you ever want to use power tools/1600W vacuum cleaners etc.

 

I also run a 1kW immersion heater in my calorifier now and again and it doesn't appear to make to much impact on fuel consumption. This is especially useful if your only source of hot water is from your engine.

[blackrose]

What's the fuel consumption like between the two?

 

Not sure because they only give running time on 1/4 load (which will be 225w for the EU10i & 400w for the EU20i) and of course the fuel tank capacity is different.

 

I'm sure someone more intelligent than me could work it out.

 

http://www.justgenerators.co.uk/pages/HondaEU10i.htm

 

http://www.justgenerators.co.uk/pages/HondaEU20i.htm

 

We have a cruiser stern, I guess this would still be applicable...

 

 

 

 

So - is there any way to make the Kipors quieter?

Is there anywhere to see them together to be able to compare them to see what we would be willing to put up with?

 

Problem is we would really like to sort it this week so we have a gennie for next week as we are running the engine excessively at the moment to power everything - it does not help that the house batteries are not wired correctly (+ve and -ve taken from the same battery at the end, rather than opposite corners!) which is something else I need to sort as soon as I can get to a store to get some cable.

 

Thanks again for all your input - very useful.

 

What Jelunga says is correct - you cannot run a petrol generator in a boat's engine space (unless you have a death wish of course!)

 

Have a search through the forum archives on the subject - besides storage of petrol and the hazards of petrol fumes (which are heavier than air so especially hazardous when refueling), the other safety issues to be aware of are earthing the generator and carbon monoxide getting into the living space of the boat.

 

Also, the difference between the Kippers and the Hondas is not just the dB levels or how long they will last. The Honda EU range put out a pure sinewave and voltage stability is +/- 1% meaning you can run any equipment within the generator's rated power output including sensitive equipment like microwaves and washing machines. If this isn't important to you then by all means save some money and buy a Kipper.

Edited October 14, 2008 by blackrose

[bottle]

Hi

 

Fuel consumption:

 

Eu10, 2.3 litres in 8.3 hrs = 0.27 litres per hour

 

Eu20, 4.1 litres in 10.5 hrs = 0.39 litres per hour

[Cinimod]

Not sure because they only give running time on 1/4 load (which will be 225w for the EU10i & 400w for the EU20i) and of course the fuel tank capacity is different.

 

I'm sure someone more intelligent than me could work it out.

 

http://www.justgenerators.co.uk/pages/HondaEU10i.htm

 

http://www.justgenerators.co.uk/pages/HondaEU20i.htm

 

I assumer the reference to Kipper for the other gennies as they are a bit of a wet fish?

 

OK so some figures @ 1/4 load (which I guess is the quietest and most efficient way to run the gennie)

 

10i - output @240v, just under 1amp, 8.3hours, 2.3l tank - 0.28 l/hr

20i - output @240v, 1.67 amps, 10.5hours, 4.1l tank - 0.4 l/hr

 

However, I guess that the 10i will need to run at more than 1/4 load to provide all the power we need, whereas the 20i will be able to run at a lower load ratio, so it may well turn out that the 20i uses only the same, or less petrol - just the difference in the initial outlay. The other benefit of the Honda over others that I can see is that you can link 2 gennies together if you need the extra output - which could come in handy one day.

 

Still have not managed to work out a comparison for running your engine to charge the batteries and provide power... anyone any idea how much diesel an Isuzu Marine IM4LB33 uses an hour?

 

Looking at a motorhome board the kips do get a very mixed review... Decision made? Probably the Honda, but it is a big chunk of money... mind you over the 5 yrs of the warranty I think you save the cost in petrol, and there is also the benefit that the honda can be converted to LPG if desired... (am I talking myself into this?)

[blackrose]

I assumer the reference to Kipper for the other gennies as they are a bit of a wet fish?

 

OK so some figures @ 1/4 load (which I guess is the quietest and most efficient way to run the gennie)

 

10i - output @240v, just under 1amp, 8.3hours, 2.3l tank - 0.28 l/hr

20i - output @240v, 1.67 amps, 10.5hours, 4.1l tank - 0.4 l/hr

 

However, I guess that the 10i will need to run at more than 1/4 load to provide all the power we need, whereas the 20i will be able to run at a lower load ratio, so it may well turn out that the 20i uses only the same, or less petrol - just the difference in the initial outlay. The other benefit of the Honda over others that I can see is that you can link 2 gennies together if you need the extra output - which could come in handy one day.

 

Still have not managed to work out a comparison for running your engine to charge the batteries and provide power... anyone any idea how much diesel an Isuzu Marine IM4LB33 uses an hour?

 

Looking at a motorhome board the kips do get a very mixed review... Decision made? Probably the Honda, but it is a big chunk of money... mind you over the 5 yrs of the warranty I think you save the cost in petrol, and there is also the benefit that the honda can be converted to LPG if desired... (am I talking myself into this?)

 

I thought the HMI Isuzu website might give fuel consumption figures but I can't find it. I'd say about 1 litre/hour.

 

It's not just the fuel consumption comparison - if you're concerned about the price of a Honda generator then you should also be concerned about the price of your engine. Personally I'd rather put lots of hours on a £900 generator than a £5000 engine.

 

Added to that is the reduced noise of the generator which to me and my neighbours is worth quite a lot.

[Cinimod]

I thought the HMI Isuzu website might give fuel consumption figures but I can't find it. I'd say about 1 litre/hour.

 

It's not just the fuel consumption comparison - if you're concerned about the price of a Honda generator then you should also be concerned about the price of your engine. Personally I'd rather put lots of hours on a £900 generator than a £5000 engine.

 

Added to that is the reduced noise of the generator which to me and my neighbours is worth quite a lot.

 

Thank you.

 

I have had an email exchange with HMI and they have sent over a PDF of fuel consumption - but they lowest they go is 50% load, and at that point it is around 1.2l/hr so I would hope it would be lower...

 

To do some back of the fag packet calculations...

 

Running engine - approx 0.8 ltr/hr (guess!) so call it about 80p per hour...

Running Honda Eu20i - approx 0.4ltr/hr so around 50p per hour...

 

At a saving of 30p an hour it would pay for itself in... about 500 days running - but then there is also the saving in wear on the engine, easier servicing, better resale value on the boat if lower engine hours, less servicing of the engine (which is a lot more than the gennie) - OH - and BIG noise difference - sorry still trying to talk myself into it... I guess I know what we should do, but it is a big chunk of money...

 

Can you recommend anything to check the charge state of the batteries, so that we only have the battery charger on when required, so reduce the load on the gennie?

 

Thanks - the help on this forum is WONDERFUL!

[Justme]

Can you recommend anything to check the charge state of the batteries, so that we only have the battery charger on when required, so reduce the load on the gennie?

 

Thanks - the help on this forum is WONDERFUL!

 

 

A SmartGuage from HERE

 

Justme

Edited October 14, 2008 by Justme

[GSer]

Sorry for a slight hi-jack, but if a genny is decided to be the best route, where do people store the petrol, can it be stored in the gas locker legally?

 

Paul

[Cinimod]

Sorry for a slight hi-jack, but if a genny is decided to be the best route, where do people store the petrol, can it be stored in the gas locker legally?

 

Paul

 

Not sure - but don't have to worry about that one now... made the decision today whilst on the phone to Edge Technology (nice chap called Chris)

 

Not sure why we delayed so long, as we knew what we wanted... just had to justify it I guess... so the decision - Drum roll - Thank you, thank you, thank you to all who helped us decide - the Honda EU20i... BUT not just a Honda EU20i, but one with the LPG conversion on it so we don't need to bother with petrol. (Or at least have the choice)

 

Apparently the gennie uses 1/3 kg of gas per KW/h of energy, so by my calcs..

at a 1/4 load which is 400w - it would use 0.13kg per hour...

 

Which at approx 20quid for a 13kg cylinder works out at - 20p per hour...

Petrol on the same load is about 0.4l per hour or approx 40p an hour

 

Given that we can save 20p an hour, that means the conversion pays for itself in 800 hours... about 100 working days...

So let's face it - that is not really the issue. For some reason it is supposed to be greener... also does not need as much servicing when running on LPG and is imperceptibly quieter!

 

The thing that made us decide is the longer running time you can get from a gas cylinder

13kg @ 1/4 load lasts about 100 hours - rather than the 10hrs for petrol!

 

So thanks again to all you wonderful helpful people.

However, it may be handy to have a 5l can of petrol handy just in case we run out... so can you keep it in the gas locker?

[Nickhlx]

Perfect timing for this thread for me too - will likely do the same thing in a few months time.

 

And I would also heartily recommend the Smartgauge too - I will also be fitting one in addition to the existing instrumentation

 

Nick

[GSer]

Not sure - but don't have to worry about that one now... made the decision today whilst on the phone to Edge Technology (nice chap called Chris)

 

Not sure why we delayed so long, as we knew what we wanted... just had to justify it I guess... so the decision - Drum roll - Thank you, thank you, thank you to all who helped us decide - the Honda EU20i... BUT not just a Honda EU20i, but one with the LPG conversion on it so we don't need to bother with petrol. (Or at least have the choice)

 

Apparently the gennie uses 1/3 kg of gas per KW/h of energy, so by my calcs..

at a 1/4 load which is 400w - it would use 0.13kg per hour...

 

Which at approx 20quid for a 13kg cylinder works out at - 20p per hour...

Petrol on the same load is about 0.4l per hour or approx 40p an hour

 

Given that we can save 20p an hour, that means the conversion pays for itself in 800 hours... about 100 working days...

So let's face it - that is not really the issue. For some reason it is supposed to be greener... also does not need as much servicing when running on LPG and is imperceptibly quieter!

 

The thing that made us decide is the longer running time you can get from a gas cylinder

13kg @ 1/4 load lasts about 100 hours - rather than the 10hrs for petrol!

 

So thanks again to all you wonderful helpful people.

However, it may be handy to have a 5l can of petrol handy just in case we run out... so can you keep it in the gas locker?

 

 

I'm glad you have made a decision, how do you figure on setting it all up then? Will you just stand an LPG bottle beside the genny on the towpath? Or perhaps keep the bottle in the gas locker and run a pipe to the genny, wherever that may be?

 

On mine I think I might have tried keeping the generator on the front locker cover outside of the cratch at least any leaks of fuel or exhaust fumes would have the chance of not collecting in the bilges

 

Questions, questions and so few answers

 

Good luck

 

Paul

[colin loach]

just to put the cat amongst the pigeons i built my own generator Easley, using a Honda engine and a 90 amp alternator. charges the batteries in about 1 hour. i sold it when i bought my new boat, but i will make another one. the unit works out about £200. Colin.

[n.b.Goldie]

I can recommend the Honda EU2.0i. It ran all mains on my old boat for about 8 years (washing machine, tumble drier etc..) I had it converted to run from propane so no petrol to be kept on the boat. I think Edge Technologies still do them. All I ever did to it was change the oil regularly. Never even changed the spark plug..

 

The genny was used at least four hours a day to charge batteries via a sterling digital 30 amp charger. I let the genny go with the boat when I sold it last Feb, wish I had'nt!

 

Fumes are an issue with any fuel and I stood my genny on the back deck with the exhaust pointing over the side. The gas bottle stood next to it. We never had any problems with fumes entering the boat.