Small narrowboats

[Gary Peacock]

 

 

 

 

 

In the dark and distant past we used to build 25-35' narrowboats (Water bugs) that proved to be quite popular but over the years demand dropped off and with more demand for larger boats it made them not really very attractive to build.

 

We do still get the occasional enquiry for them and the stock reply over the last few years had become "Sorry but not interested in anything under 40'!" so after this standard response was rolled out last week I got to thinking if it really does make sense to turn away business?

 

The obvious problem with building a small boat is that it still needs the expensive bits of any boat- a bow and a stern, the bit in the middle is mostly just flat plate plus fit out and this is where the money is made. That money is not just profit but also needed to cover the overheads etc so it is pretty obvious that boats with little in the way of a middle bit aren't the best proposition to build.

 

Just out of curiosity we did a few costings on how much one would actually now cost to build and quite surprisingly it isn't that unviable, every one I think had become accustomed to the costs associated with larger boats while forgetting that a smaller boat needs less of the must have items like windows etc and doesn't have the space for the expensive complications available in larger boats.

 

To make them worthwhile they are going to have to be of a fairly simple design and a fairly basic fit out to keep the build time short compared to a full size boat, but based on that a 30-33' boat would have to sell for about £45K it might even be feasible to do some more at 25'.

 

It still seems a lot of money for a small boat but maybe in a market where nobody is interested in building them anymore there might be customers that have that kind of budget for new build small narrowboats?

[Purple Fairie]

A friend of ours builds only small narrowboats

 

littleboatco

 

and he's doing quite well, even though we're out in the sticks

[magpie patrick]

As your are a bespoke builder, and thus only have to build one if someone wants one, the answer is probably yes. You a few K above a wilderness boat but nearly ten feet longer and an actual narrow boat to boot.

 

what spec were you thinking of: I assume a fairly basic one (after all, where do you put the aga, microwave, washing machine and freezer on a 30 footer!)

 

At the moment, we are seriously considering downsizing because Ripple is simply too big: all the costs are higher and maintenence and all that take much longer. Given the floor seems to have fallen out of the second hand boating market we won't be changing just yet. Your price is around what I paid for her two years ago (when life's aspirations were very different!). If I was spending that now I'd have a newere shorter boat, and possibly a brand new 30-35 footer.

 

You might face a risk with cancelled orders though

[alan_fincher]

I think these can be excellent little holiday boats, particularly if you are not away for weeks, and only have two on board.

 

I can only imagine demand would grow, from people who want to cruise, but can no longer sustain the costs of 50 feet or more.

 

Some excellent ones have sold near us, and I always thing they are a good idea.

 

The one big apparent difference between the Ledgard example, and the Little Boat Co one posted by Purple Fairie seems to be engine choice. LB seems to be inbord. LBC only outboard. I'd personally only consider an inboard powered example.

 

What was the motor of choice in your's, please, Gary ?

[John Orentas]

One of the problems with the small boats the time around was the of availability of appropriate engines, the builder obviously went for the bottom end of the market with twin or even single cylinder jobs which in all honesty were not much good, also they were usually fitted with Hurth 50 or equivalent gearboxes which did not stand up to canal work.

 

So any builder has a dilemma, the boat must be low cost but not a 'cheapie', not easy.

[tony collins]

To make them worthwhile they are going to have to be of a fairly simple design and a fairly basic fit out to keep the build time short compared to a full size boat, but based on that a 30-33' boat would have to sell for about £45K it might even be feasible to do some more at 25'.

 

It still seems a lot of money for a small boat but maybe in a market where nobody is interested in building them anymore there might be customers that have that kind of budget for new build small narrowboats?

 

I think there should be a market. Look at the success that Sea-Otter enjoyed before they forgot their market niche and started to overreach themselves by building bigger boats. And they were using aluminium! You still see Springer water bugs about.

 

Your position depends on your order book, but in the absence of other work would you not like to build a smaller boat?

 

Tony

 

Edited: to say that the majority of boat on our moorings are below 35ft.

Edited October 13, 2008 by tony collins

[chris w]

£45K for a 30ft boat sounds expensive when people like the "New Boat Company" were selling new 50 footers for only £4K more than that, with an amazingly good fit-out too. I think you need to be looking at closer to £1K/ft at that end of the market.

 

Chris

[Mac of Cygnet]

I think these can be excellent little holiday boats, particularly if you are not away for weeks, and only have two on board.

 

I can only imagine demand would grow, from people who want to cruise, but can no longer sustain the costs of 50 feet or more.

 

Some excellent ones have sold near us, and I always thing they are a good idea.

 

The one big apparent difference between the Ledgard example, and the Little Boat Co one posted by Purple Fairie seems to be engine choice. LB seems to be inbord. LBC only outboard. I'd personally only consider an inboard powered example.

 

What was the motor of choice in your's, please, Gary ?

 

I have a 27ft 'Owl' class narrowboat built by Mick Sievewright in the 1980s, and I find it just right for me and the dog, spending most of the summer and frequent weeks in the winter on her. (When the wife and her dog come on board it gets a bit crowded). For someone who doesn't want all the bells and whistles the size is just right - mooring is easier, and moorings are cheaper and easier to find, it can turn anywhere and go anywhere, and uses less fuel than a large boat and less heating in winter. All in all much more enjoyable than a 47ft (shared) boat we used to have. Many people, boaters and non-boaters, have commented on Cygnet, saying that she would be an ideal size of boat for them. The original engine was a Volvo, and the present one the smallest Vetus 2-cylinder, the only trouble being that it is shoe-horned into the space available, making maintenance very difficult - this is the only feature I dont like about the small size.

 

The only boat I would consider as a replacement would be a similar sized Sea Otter, and they are very popular, with many similar internal features. OK, I know they went bust, but many people consider that is because they strayed too much from their original (small) size range. And apparently they are back on track now, after their foray into receivership prompted a wave of enquiries to the agents from people who had been thinking of buying one.

 

So yes, I think the demand is there, but it's not exactly a very good time to be building boats altogether, is it?

 

Mac

[Gary Peacock]

What was the motor of choice in your's, please, Gary ?

 

In the old ones it was normally small 2 and 3 cylinders from various sources but in those days pre RCD you could fit what you pleased, today the engine would need to comply to the new mandatory regulations.

 

So normally now it would be a Barrus Shire offering but they don't do anything less than 33hp which would be a bit big for a really small boat so probably it would be one of the 3 cylinder Beta Marine Green Lines, I think they still do a 28hp..

 

Alternatively the 3 cylinder Isuzu 25 might be a good choice too especially if trying to keep the price down.

 

If you were to go down the road of raw water cooling the choices available would be greater and the prices lower.

 

 

I think one of the biggest considerations here is going to be do people want a good small boat or just the cheapest boat?

 

If it is just the cheapest then you could knock a few thousand off by tweaking the steel spec, fitting the cheapest engine, cheaper insulation methods, using an integral water tank and cheaper paint etc

 

If price isn't so much of an issue the way we priced it was based on what we would normally do but with the loss of the unnecessary/impossible bits on a small boat.

 

 

It's really got me thinking now if price or size would be the thing that would make them attractive?

 

Maybe it would be better to throw away the specs for the full size boat and just try to get the construction costs down to produce a good cheap but basic boat.

Edited October 13, 2008 by Gary Peacock

[AlanJ]

I believe the "shorter" end of the narrowboat market is an opportunity!

We used to make use of my step-mum's 35' boat - was great for weekends/holidays and that was with two small kids. Was a squash with 4 adults on-board but that wasn't really what it was designed for.

You can't live on them, but as a recreational thing they fit the bill.

[larkshall]

Gary, I think the answer to this one is a qualified 'Yes'

 

The impending credit crunch, lousy exchange rates, and reduced disposable income would dictate downsizing, including boats/caravans etc.

Also note others are beginning to offer smaller boats, or 'trailer' sailors, This of course bypasses high marina charges.

I see others are talking about engine sizes etc, Can I suggest you examine diesel outboards or sterndrives?, would reduce the amount of accommadation space eaten into for engines et all?, Negates weed hatches too.

[MtB]

We do still get the occasional enquiry for them and the stock reply over the last few years had become "Sorry but not interested in anything under 40'!" so after this standard response was rolled out last week I got to thinking if it really does make sense to turn away business?

 

Hi Gary,

 

I get a similar problem when people ask me to travel miles to mend a boiler. It seems much more gentle to say "Yes I can do it, but as you are miles away the cost will be quite high, say £xxx as an estimate." That way you pass it back to them to say 'no thanks' and occassionally someone says 'yes that's fine I rerally want YOU to do the work. And then I know I'm getting paid an appropriate price for the time I'll spend on them and teir repair.

 

if you are talking to a punter who really IS willing to spend £45k on a well-bult 30 footer and you say 'yes but they are £45k', you're no longer turning them away and if they carry on talking to you you'll probably get the order. But you are also giving the right message to the person who thinks a boat half the length will be half the price.

 

We used to call this "price conditioning" back in the days when I briefly tried selling double glazing!

 

Cheers, Mike

[tidal]

as someone who has been looking for a good boat beteen 25 and 30ft long (which would be perfect for me as a pemanently single liveaboard), I have found that as soon as a reasonably well kept one appears it gets a lot of interest and sells very quickly.

 

As others have said, the few new boats of this size (that I have seen) are OB powered which for a day/short trip boat is fine but only rarely do you see one (other than a pure bespoke) which has an inboard. Even worse, most that I have seen have a large cruiser stern. (wasted space)

 

If it is any indicator a small Sea Otter that I knew might be coming up for sale, went so fast that it didn't actually get the advert up before the deposit was paid !!

 

I would certainly be interested in the prospect of a fairly basic new boat of that size.

[Liam]

Tidal,

 

A friend of mine is selling her 27ft Siveright Owl Class boat for £16k ono with nearly new and hardly used Vetus engine with stern/cratch covers which has been well looked after. Based on the Bridgewater canal, but heading up to brokerage at the weekend so if you're interested I can get you a number to cut out the brokers taking their fee.

 

If interested let me know I will get you a phone number.

[Gary Peacock]

as someone who has been looking for a good boat beteen 25 and 30ft long (which would be perfect for me as a pemanently single liveaboard), I have found that as soon as a reasonably well kept one appears it gets a lot of interest and sells very quickly.

 

As others have said, the few new boats of this size (that I have seen) are OB powered which for a day/short trip boat is fine but only rarely do you see one (other than a pure bespoke) which has an inboard. Even worse, most that I have seen have a large cruiser stern. (wasted space)

 

If it is any indicator a small Sea Otter that I knew might be coming up for sale, went so fast that it didn't actually get the advert up before the deposit was paid !!

 

I would certainly be interested in the prospect of a fairly basic new boat of that size.

 

Well it's looking like we are definitely going to offer them.

 

At the moment we are looking at 30'-33' and basing it on nearly the same specification of a full size Hebble Range boat rather than just trying to build the cheapest boat available on the cut.

 

The intension would be to build the smaller boat in a similar manner to the larger ones with the customer being able to have the same input into both steel work and fit out rather than trying to adopt the production line stock boat approach.

 

At the moment this is the working spec- (Sorry it's a bit list like at the moment and it may get changed a bit before it is finalised)

 

HULL SPECIFICATION

 

Full conformity to RCD cat D & BSS, built to CBA code of practice guidelines.

 

Your choice of stern -Trad, Modified Trad, Semi Trad, Cruiser (we do not charge extra for different styles!)

 

STEEL

 

Oiled de-scaled BS EN10025 steel. This steel remains rust and scale free from flat plate to completed hull.

 

WELDING

 

The Base plate is stick welded and conventional MIG welding is used elsewhere throughout the hull. All welds are dye pen tested.

 

BASE PLATE 10mm

 

SIDES 6mm.

 

CABIN SIDES 5mm.

 

ROOF 4 mm. (Our roofs do not bend or rely on a large curve for rigidity.)

 

STRINGERS

 

55 x 55 x 5mm

 

FLOOR BEARERS

 

70 x 70 x 6mm

 

BOW LOCKERS

 

Fitted as standard with steel hinged lids.

 

CABIN DOORS

 

3mm folded steel doors front and rear. (Not flat plate!)

 

SAFETY RAILS

 

Cruiser and trad equipped with steel safety rails with timber tops.

 

FUEL TANK

 

Integral split tank to maximum size dictated by design with environmental anti-spill traps. purposes.

 

GAS LOCKER

 

Self draining vented locker(s) to suit design.

 

WEED HATCH

 

Quick release easy access design with independent deck hatch access if design requires.

 

DECK FITTINGS

 

T stud or bollards forward, pole and plank rack, roof eye and stern bollards.

 

FENDER EYES

 

Brass recessed.

 

DECKS

 

All self draining. All deck hatches with self draining frames.

 

RUBBING STRAKES

 

50 mm x 12 mm one full top, one full mid stake and one bow strake.

 

HAND RAILS

 

Integral folded roof section with drain scuppers (not angle section) or tubular rails to suit design and customer requirements.

 

ENGINE BED

 

Fully welded anti-flex bearers to suit engine.

 

ENGINE COOLING

 

Skin tank to match engine requirements.

 

STERN TUBE & SHAFT

 

To match engine requirements with R&D coupling and brass quick release greaser bilge and automatic bilge pump.

 

STEERING

 

Nylon anti-seize rudder bearings.

 

Solid forged swan neck (not bent tube.)

 

ANODES

 

4 x 1.5 Kg

 

BALLAST

 

The floor is painted with blacking to spray foam level and new concrete flags are then laid on roofing felt.

INSULATION

Fully polyurethane spray foamed.

WINDOWS

 

High quality Wesley Marine Windows in customer's choice of porthole or radius corner top hoppers; a choice of finishes installed to customers

 

design.

 

VENTILATION

 

3 x Brass mushroom vents. Brass or Stainless steel door/bulkhead vents.

 

Underwater paintwork system - Hull blacked to gunnels with Rylard Standard Black Coal Tar Blacking.

 

Upperworks paintwork system High Quality Craft Master paint.

 

The hull is fully prepared prior to two coats of colour matched primer/undercoat when dry this is flatted back and three coats of 2 pack high gloss paint

 

are applied.

 

CHOICE OF COLOURS

 

Any choice of one colour from the British Standard or RAL Standard colours charts (approximately 400 choices!)

 

 

ENGINE

 

Beta Marine Green line 28hp or Isuzu 25hp with 2 years warranty.

 

 

PLUMBING

 

WATER TANK

 

Food Grade Stainless Steel to maximum size to match design

PIPING

 

Hep²O Professional Flexible Plumbing System for Hot & Cold & Central Heating System.

 

CALORIFIER

 

With 1Kw immersion heater.

 

WATER PUMP

 

12.5 litre per min automatic 4405 Series Flojet.

 

 

DECK FITTINGS

 

Brass

 

 

ELECTRICAL

 

Electrical system meets the standards laid down by the RCD, BMEA and BSS.

 

240V AC SYSTEM

 

Landline input to custom made AC control panel.

 

Equipped with-

 

Mains present indicator.

 

Correct polarity indicator.

 

RCBO

 

1 x 10 A MCB protected circuit.

 

1 x 16A MCB protected circuit.

 

All AC internal cabling run in 2.5mm² Arctic cable.

 

SOCKETS

 

Choice of 2 x double Brass, Chrome or brushed stainless double sockets.

 

2 x White single sockets located in TV unit and Fridge space.

 

DC SYSTEM

 

All low voltage cabling used complies to Bs6862, Bs6360

 

1 x 110A batteries

 

2 x 110A batteries

 

Heavy duty easy access starter battery, domestic battery bank isolators.

 

12V distribution panel.

 

Equipped with-

 

12V Meter.

 

10 x individually thermal breaker protected circuit

5 x halogen down lighters with conventional domestic switching with switch plates to match

choice of sockets.

 

 

EXTERNAL ELECTRICAL

 

Head lamp

 

Horn

 

 

LPG SYSTEM

 

The LPG systems are carried by a CORGI Boat qualified fitter. (We do not OEM self certificate.)

 

Equipped to take 1 x 13 KG bottle (bottle not supplied).

 

HEATING

 

Alde LPG central heating running 3 radiators.

 

System is equipped with a twin coil calorifier with 1KW immersion heater. This system provides for 3 independent sources of hot water: Engine, Central Heating, Shore Power

 

FITOUT

 

The fit out will largely remain down to the individual customers choice. We have no fixed layout and are happy to work with the customer to provide a layout to suit.

 

FLOOR

 

3/4” Exterior grade plywood (not shuttering ply.)

 

LINING

 

Choice of 9mm Ash or Oak veneered ply with matching trim or 8mm Kronospan in a large choice of colours or finishes.

 

All trim is screwed and plugged or nailed and filled by hand, we do not use nail guns, no nails or cups and screws.

 

All doors are hardwood edged we do not believe in the routed MDF edge effect.

 

WINDOW LININGS

 

Standard aluminium in a choice of finishes.

 

GALLEY

 

Choice of traditional cabinet made or domestic kitchen units to your own layout. (Traditional narrowboat designs normally feature cabinet made units

 

while barge styles favour domestic units.)

 

APPLIANCES.

 

Spinflo Caprice 2020 cooker in stainless steel.

 

12v Fridge with ice box.

 

SALOON

 

Open plan with Corner TV unit.

 

Shelving.

 

BATHROOM

 

Corner shower unit. The shower is lined with your choice of Formica faced boards from an extensive range. (We do not recommend the use of tiles on boats.)

 

Ceramic basin and monoblock tap and mirror.

 

Thetford cassette toilet.

 

BEDROOM

 

Double bed with wardrobes to suit design.

 

FLOORING

 

Choice of carpet and or vinyl (Hardwood or Laminate available)

 

 

FIRE FIGHTING EQUIPMENT

 

Smoke detector

 

Carbon monoxide Detector

 

LPG Detector

 

Dry powder extinguishers to requirerments.

 

1x Fire blanket.

 

 

DOCUMENTATION

 

Certificate of conformity to Cat D of the R.C.D..

 

Full owners manual and diagrams.

Edited October 14, 2008 by Gary Peacock

[tidal]

Liam

is that the same one you mentioned on t'other place?

I tried PM'ing you for details then but it kept kicking me out.

[Liam]

Tidal, yep the one mentioned here.. Narrowboat for sale

 

It is actually 27ft not 30ft as incorrectly stated in the add. An old couple who were retired owned the boat for many years. He was down almost daily pottering about on it. Unfortunately he died about 18 months ago (at home) and the lady can't cope with the boat on her own so it is now up for sale. She's had a few people window shopping but nothing serious, hence the reason it is being taken over to Harral Brokerage at the weekend by friends.

[tidal]

Liam

Sorry for delay replying. I had to check what I can do and when

Sadly, as I have been having no luck finding the boat I want (or have been beaten to boats I wanted) I decided to get heavily involved in some business here until well after Xmas. Having shaken hands on that I cannot go back on my word and this precludes the trips back I would need to go boat hunting again.

 

Same as it ever was, whenever you stop looking something good turns up

 

Gary

 

Interesting specs..........have to ask why the Alde not solid fuel? and why no air gap beneath ballast (or have i misread)

 

One last thing, have you ever fitted a self igniting water heater to a boat? I gather there are now room sealed versions as well

[Liam]

No probs Tidal. It's been for sale for some time, and I have a feeling it's not going to be sold fast at Harrals so it may still be available when you get back to boat hunting

[duztee]

To get back to the original post!

Yes Gary, I would agree there is a significant market for a short boat, not everyone lives aboard, a lot of us just want a boat to be able to enjoy the canals in our free time.

I am sure that a short boat with it's reduced annual costs but still offering all the basics is a sound idea.

If you require more evidence of public opinion then look no further than Excellence Afloat at Valley Cruisers, their Elan Valley is a beautiful 32' Tug Style, which is very popular and attracts a full seasons bookings.

Duztee.

[tidal]

To get back to the original post!

 

*apologises for slight sidebar even though it was at least partially on topic*

 

Anyway, as I said earlier I am sure from experience that the need for more smalller boats is out there now and given the current (and probable future) financial situation, I have no doubt that the demand will get higher.

 

DOES anyone currently build 25 to 30ft basic boats with an inboard engine? I haven't seen any except one-off specials in recent years and these are normally self-builds.

 

I have a friend with a 25ft outboard pwered boat who is looking to turn that to an inboard with a leg/sterndrive but this seems like a less than popular option. Is there a reason for this?

[John Orentas]

I have a friend with a 25ft outboard pwered boat who is looking to turn that to an inboard with a leg/sterndrive but this seems like a less than popular option. Is there a reason for this?

 

 

Stern-drives have never found favour on the canals, they tend to be expensive, vulnerable to damage in locks etc. and from personal experience the gearbox forward/reverse mechanisms are not as robust as they might be..

 

The advantages they have of being more compact are not so significant on longer boats.. Very handy though being able to swing the prop out of the water.

[chris w]

I think that if there were a good market for shorter boats, we would see many, many more of them on the canals. F/G cruisers are generally shorter boats and relatively cheap too second hand. I remember the Southern GU had loads of them 20 years ago. Now it's a rare sight.

 

Chris

Edited October 15, 2008 by chris w

[Gary Peacock]

Gary

 

Interesting specs..........have to ask why the Alde not solid fuel? and why no air gap beneath ballast (or have i misread)

 

One last thing, have you ever fitted a self igniting water heater to a boat? I gather there are now room sealed versions as well

 

 

At the moment fitting a solidfuel stove to a new boat is legally a tricky issue, in the absense of any official legislation the definition of what is safe or unsafe is not defined.

 

The industry guidance at the moment makes it nigh on impossible to fit one while following it because it requuires the stove must be fitted in accordance with the manafacturers instructions and be approved by the manafacturer for marine use. (There are very few stoves on the market that tick those boxes.)

 

Obviously any good boatbuilder knows how to fit a stove safely but unfortunately in a world where seeking compensation is now so popular in the event of an incident that could be attributed to a solid fuel stove then the boatbuilders own interpretation or best practice is going to have to stand up in court where what they consider safe can often be proved by the highly paid expert witnesses to not be.

 

It sounds a bit over the top but there is a case of this nature going on at the moment.

 

The problem with the room sealed instantaneous water heater is that it needs a 230v supply so without you have an inverter it is a non starter.

 

The air gap under the ballast is not commonly done these days but if people want it then you just use strips of UPVC used in the window industry I have my doubts how necessary it really is but doing it isn't any big thing.

 

Anyway I have still been doing a bit more work on the small boat idea and we have narrowed it down to probably building a 30'ish version of this 40' one we did.

 

 

 

 

The well deck would fairly minimal but probably keeps the overall look better than not having one at all.

 

The stern could either be a cruiser style or maybe a "modified trad" might make better use of the space and give a nicer look.

 

Edited October 23, 2008 by Gary Peacock

[Tony Brooks]

snip

 

 

The well deck would fairly minimal but probably keeps the overall look better than not having one at all.

 

Snip

 

 

I agree with that but look at the length of the forward locker. One of the things that attracted me to JennyB is that the froward locker is no more than a cubbyhole to form a small chain locker. I doubt the front "deck" is more than 12" long. The well deck is also much shorter than usual.

 

This means the swim continues back past the front bulkhead to a small degree but I estimate I have probably another 2ft of cabin space than is typical and in the UK I think we need "anti-rain space rather than "sun space". The sun & eating out area is the cruiser stern.