Railway boats and canals

[NB Alnwick]

Graham

 

In which issue(s)was your article published? It would be interesting to read your conclusions!

 

Thanks

 

ATB

 

Martin O'Keeffe

 

Unfortunately I don't have access to the index just now but I will try and find out which issue it was in. Also, it is worth bearing in mind that the article was aimed at a wide general interest readership and rather than purporting to be a work of historical reference.

[tarboat]

I am doing some research on railway company owned canals and narrowboats. Can anyone suggest any websites that contain photographs of boats, canals or notices that suggest railway ownership?

 

There are a number of photographs of boats in MS&L, Great Central, and LNER livery on this site: www.brocross.com/canal/canal.htm

 

Cheers,

[boatmanckp]

There was a railway interchange it the bottom pound of Marple locks it was quite visible in the 60s. CKP

[NB Alnwick]

There are a number of photographs of boats in MS&L, Great Central, and LNER livery on this site: www.brocross.com/canal/canal.htm

 

Cheers,

 

Many useful photographs and records exist but there are scant details of liveries or paint schemes and as contemporary photographs are monochromatic, in most cases we can only guess at the paint colours used. Having said that, I am quite certain that the railway companies concerned would not have painted their boats in the ornate style of their main line express passenger coaches or locomotives - which is what some present day owners of ex-railway boats seem to believe. In their working days these boats (in my opinion) would have enjoyed a livery status little better than engineer's or works' wagons, common freight wagons or works' barrows - which means that the most likely paint finish would have been shades of grey through to black with perhaps a hint of colour or contrast on the cabin sides . . .

[Mac of Cygnet]

We will be here all day if we start listing interchanges on the BCN!

 

Richard

 

Well we've been here since 11 March 2008, so another day won't make any difference.

[Heartland]

Well we've been here since 11 March 2008, so another day won't make any difference.

 

Apart from publishing the Railway Interchange Book, I did provide a full list of West Midlands Interchangw basins and boatage depots in Birmingham and Black Country Canalside Industries p 105 -107. This book was published by tempus in 2005. The only one not on the list is the proposed basin at Rood End. But if there is an interest I will seek out the disc to see if I can copy it across.

 

Ray Shill

[magpie patrick]

There was a railway interchange it the bottom pound of Marple locks it was quite visible in the 60s. CKP

 

There is indeed, but it's above lock 2 not lock 1 (they are numbered from the bottom upwards). No one seems to know why it was built but there is some suggestion that the canal was used to carry construction traffic for the railway, which goes underneath the canal between locks 3 and 4.

 

I've a vague recollection that there was a siding to the wharf which would be necessary for trains to be served once the railway was open. However, it was gone long before I knew the locks.

 

The road adjacent is known locally as "The Printworks Road" and may have been the route of the temporary tramway that served whilst the locks were being built

[billh]

There is indeed, but it's above lock 2 not lock 1 (they are numbered from the bottom upwards). No one seems to know why it was built but there is some suggestion that the canal was used to carry construction traffic for the railway, which goes underneath the canal between locks 3 and 4.

 

I've a vague recollection that there was a siding to the wharf which would be necessary for trains to be served once the railway was open. However, it was gone long before I knew the locks.

 

The road adjacent is known locally as "The Printworks Road" and may have been the route of the temporary tramway that served whilst the locks were being built

 

There is still a short cutting through to the main line at Marple Wharf Junction also, now buried in dredgings is a substantial blue brick "platform " running parallel to the canal, allowing goods transfer on the level between railway and canal.

Two other interchanges on the Ashton Canal, were Prince's (sometimes Princess) Dock at Guide Bridge Brookside sidings and Ashton Old Wharf ( now the Sea Cadets HQ).

The latter was a substantial warehouse between Lower Wharf St and the canal. Rail access was into the top storey from the viaduct of the Stalybridge branch. The lower floor was at street level but there were large loading ways on the canal side. I have no information about use of the canal at this point, the warehouse was destroyed by fire about 1960 and demolished later. You can still see the stub end of the viaduct leading into the warehouse.

The Prince's dock was originally constructed by the MSLR to enable large quantities of ballast to be brought from the Bugsworth area for use on their Woodhead line and branches. In the 1860's there were around 20 boats just engaged with this traffic. This lasted into the 1880's when the company gained rail access to the quarries . The dock continued to be used , mainly for maintenance purposes through the GCR, LNER and even BR period. The last recorded use I have, shows 10 tons of coal loaded onto Joel on October 19th 1948, the coal was distributed to the Ashton Canal lock keepers at Fairfield,Stockport Junction, Park Lock(7) and Ancoats, each got two and a half tons. Thereafter the coal was loaded at the yard at Benson's Bridge in Droylsden. Prince's dock remained useable into the 1960's, the connecting siding often used to store wagons, boats could access the dock until about twenty years ago when it was vandalised by BR/ Railtrack filling it in. the structure is all intact but buried, ironically with used ballast.

Just remembered...... The transhipment warehouse at Whaley Bridge between Peak Forest Canal and the Cromford & High Peak Railway ( not an MSLR owned line).Midland Railway?

Bill

[tarboat]

 

Just remembered...... The transhipment warehouse at Whaley Bridge between Peak Forest Canal and the Cromford & High Peak Railway ( not an MSLR owned line).Midland Railway?

Bill

 

The Cromford & High Peak was eventually a LNWR owned line, leased from 1862 and taken over in 1887. At the Cromford end of the line there was interchange with the Cromford Canal at High Peak Junction. The Cromford Canal passed to the Midland Railway and LNWR jointly in 1852.

[Ray T]

Many useful photographs and records exist but there are scant details of liveries or paint schemes and as contemporary photographs are monochromatic, in most cases we can only guess at the paint colours used. Having said that, I am quite certain that the railway companies concerned would not have painted their boats in the ornate style of their main line express passenger coaches or locomotives - which is what some present day owners of ex-railway boats seem to believe. In their working days these boats (in my opinion) would have enjoyed a livery status little better than engineer's or works' wagons, common freight wagons or works' barrows - which means that the most likely paint finish would have been shades of grey through to black with perhaps a hint of colour or contrast on the cabin sides . . .

 

 

Any use?

 

 

 

[Starcoaster]

Is that an old pic, or a posed modern one? It seems to be of very good quality!

[NB Alnwick]

Is that an old pic, or a posed modern one? It seems to be of very good quality!

 

Clearly a very modern one! The board lettered 'Peak Forest Canal Society' is a clue together with the dress of the young ladies looking on - attire that would not have been seen away from a sports field before nationalisation in 1948.

 

Who can say if the colours are correct? Certainly the style of signwriting matches old black and white images but would the London & North Eastern Railway have used such extravagant colours on a work boat?

[Heartland]

Clearly a very modern one! The board lettered 'Peak Forest Canal Society' is a clue together with the dress of the young ladies looking on - attire that would not have been seen away from a sports field before nationalisation in 1948.

 

Who can say if the colours are correct? Certainly the style of signwriting matches old black and white images but would the London & North Eastern Railway have used such extravagant colours on a work boat?

 

 

I would think Sue Day from the Horse Boating Society might help with details regarding the image reproduced. It is an interesting thought though,

with modern restoration every attempt is made to have a brightly coloured craft. In working days, I wonder how many of these railway boats were kept in pristine condition. On a similar subject the Railway Companies did sometimes deck out their horses for events and competitions. Has anybody come across evidence of such occuring with canal boat horses.

 

Ray Shill

[Pluto]

I would think Sue Day from the Horse Boating Society might help with details regarding the image reproduced. It is an interesting thought though,

with modern restoration every attempt is made to have a brightly coloured craft. In working days, I wonder how many of these railway boats were kept in pristine condition. On a similar subject the Railway Companies did sometimes deck out their horses for events and competitions. Has anybody come across evidence of such occuring with canal boat horses.

 

Ray Shill

There was a section for boat horses in the Mayday celebrations at Burscough at the start of the 20th century, though I have not found out the fate of the cup which was presented. I also have several photos of canal company horses involved with local celebrations, usually with a delivery cart as the basis for a decorated float.

[Derek R.]

And as with the pride of presentation brought through the centuries of equine management, I'm sure all brasses and tack would be polished to a 'T'. Boatmen's display would not have stopped at the boat, though there were always the exceptions. If the Company themselves might not have cosidered such showmanship essential for pride, I feel certain the individual given charge of their steeds would have - if only to show his fellows a little one-upmanship. Having said that, we have seen recent images posted of shabby looking craft not long after their commission, however, paintwork takes time and a dock, whereas brass polishing and the like can be carried out whilst underway, or waiting to load/unload.

 

I fancy that when the railway companies were at their most productive and competetive, their image was everything. Perhaps this would have extended to their water craft, but as they themselves were in some ways the usurpers of such form of goods carriage, perhaps not?

 

In 'Colours of the Cut' No. 32, Edward Paget Tomlinson depicts CHEOPS of the L.M.S. in grey panels, white surround and red dividing line.

HOCKLEY of the G.W.R. was more basic: brown backgound with plain black letterin and surround. Whereas the locomotives and rolling stock of such companies in their hayday were painted, polished, lined and splendid in all respects.

 

But again, we are left with the research of others and their written words. How much is 'copycat' research of value? The only way to know for sure is to access the records of the companies involved, and if it no longer exists there - conjecture and hearsay is all that is left. Always open to challenge.