Diamond Leisure Batteries

[Byeckerslike]

Hi all,

 

I have come to the realization that our narrowboat is proving to be more costly than we anticipated! Over the last 3 week-ends, we have bought home one of the 3 domestic batteries and coddled and nurtured them, only to find that all our efforts are in vain. We ran the engine for 10 hours yesterday, only to find that once evening had fallen that the lights were even dimmer than usual!

I have come to realize that the previous owners were a little "truth economical", they told us that the batteries were fine, and NEVER caused them any concerns, but I now realize that their usage pattern is completely different to ours - they would use the boat 4 times a year, for at least a weeks continuous cruising, were-as, we are using the NB every week-end.

The domestic bank has 3 x 110Amp batteries charged with a Lucas A127 55Amp alternator. I now understand that I was neglecting the charging of the batteries, we would arrive mid afternoon on a Friday, start the engine and run the engine for 3 hours max. Saturday, we run the engine for maybe 4 hours tops and we return to the mooring on Sunday - 1 hour running maximum to return to the marina.

The boats electrics are very simple, 1 12v mini hi-fi, 2 water pumps and a 12v fridge, plus a 600W inverter, which we rarely used, and a 12V car type socket which we use to charge up the mobile phones and the DAB radio batteries.

The batteries are phucqued, I checked the voltages last evening, and with the engine running, the charge was 14.42V, and with the engine off (after 10 hours charging) 10.31V.

I tried starting the engine off the domestic batteries and they barely excited the starter solenoid!

 

We purchased the Sterling external alternator charger yesterday (PDAR) and this will be fitted next week-end.

 

Having trawled the webby for good prices, I have come across some Diamond Leisure batteries at a fair price, and I am hoping that some of you may have favorable experiences of their quality / life?

 

Many thanks,

 

Rob and Heather

[NB Willawaw]

10.31V ??

 

Yes I agree with your diagnosis.

The beauty of owning batteries fron new is that you know how you treat them.

 

The Diamond type you mention are quite ordinary leisure batteries, perfectly adequate

for weekend use as long as you charge them and dont let them go below 50% state of charge.

 

Did you want sealed batteries ?? open topped take a lot more punishment and can take the higher

equalisation charges that will stop them sulphating over time.

Edited February 17, 2008 by NB Willawaw

[NB Phoenix]

I think that if I understand from the forum (sorry ONE of the forums) electrics gurus correctly (Chris W). Is that cheap is best regarding batteries. Normal deep cycle lead acid batteries seem to be the favourite for NB's as opposed to the more expensive sealed or gel type. I hope I've got that right as I'm in the same boat (excuse the pun) as you and will need to go out next week to buy four domestic batteries for my boat. My old batteries were four years old but were allowed to go flat on at least two occasions. I have found a battery manufacture / supplier locally (Stevenage) who can supply 110ah at around £60.00 each. I'm hoping Chris will give you (and me) a bit more info in the next few days.

Edited February 17, 2008 by NB Phoenix

[carlt]

I think that if I understand from the forum (sorry ONE of the forums) electrics gurus correctly (ChrisJW).

I'm sure the HBF will be most flattered by you elevating him to the ranks of "electics guru". At pretender to your crown perhapds ChrisW?

 

(Only joshing, btw. I get all the various Chrisses confused, at times. Just when I've got them sorted out another one joins!)

[NB Phoenix]

I'm sure the HBF will be most flattered by you elevating him to the ranks of "electics guru". At pretender to your crown perhapds ChrisW?

 

(Only joshing, btw. I get all the various Chrisses confused, at times. Just when I've got them sorted out another one joins!)

 

 

Ouch!

 

Thanks Carl.. Edited my mistake so don't say anything and hopefully no one will notice.

[Byeckerslike]

I think that if I understand from the forum (sorry ONE of the forums) electrics gurus correctly (ChrisJW). Is that cheap is best regarding batteries. Normal deep cycle lead acid batteries seem to be the favourite for NB's as opposed to the more expensive sealed or gel type. I hope I've got that right as I'm in the same boat (excuse the pun) as you and will need to go out next week to buy four domestic batteries for my boat. My old batteries were four years old but were allowed to go flat on at least two occasions. I have found a battery manufacture / supplier locally (Stevenage) who can supply 110ah at around £60.00 each. I'm hoping Chris will give you (and me) a bit more info in the next few days.

Exactamondo! )

I, too am in the same boat as you, and our beliefs (wrightly, or, wrongly ) concerning batteries are the same. These batteries are heavier than most, they weigh 28kg. According to Sterlings website, wet re-fillable batteries are the best for NB domestic applications. I am again (wrightly, or, wrongly ) assume that the heavier the battery = denser lead plated inside, which gives an indication to the lay person (ie, me!) that they are better than lighter ones!

Time will tell (That I am sure of!)

[steelaway]

Exactamondo! )

I, too am in the same boat as you, and our beliefs (wrightly, or, wrongly ) concerning batteries are the same. These batteries are heavier than most, they weigh 28kg. According to Sterlings website, wet re-fillable batteries are the best for NB domestic applications. I am again (wrightly, or, wrongly ) assume that the heavier the battery = denser lead plated inside, which gives an indication to the lay person (ie, me!) that they are better than lighter ones!

Time will tell (That I am sure of!)

 

 

Eggzakerly!

 

Just like I like miwimin

 

Heavy and Wet!

 

Alex

[Chris J W]

I'm sure the HBF will be most flattered by you elevating him to the ranks of "electics guru". At pretender to your crown perhapds ChrisW?

 

(Only joshing, btw. I get all the various Chrisses confused, at times. Just when I've got them sorted out another one joins!)

 

I get confused by 'em and I'm one of 'em!

[Nickhlx]

Eggzakerly!

 

Just like I like miwimin

 

Heavy and Wet!

 

Alex

 

 

Well that's one of my boxes ticked ( battery type)

 

( and that's something else we have in common, Alex !!)

 

Nick

[chris w]

I would definitely recommend NOT getting sealed batteries for a NB. Wet batteries are cheaper, can be charged faster and take a lot more punishment. Sure, you have to check the water levels once every 6-8 weeks but it's a small task compared to all the advantages.

 

I would also recommend 135AH batteries.... although a little more expensive than 110AH, you get a lot more capacity in virtually the same foorptint.

 

The total true capacity of 3 x 110AH batteries is 765AH while that of 3 x 135AH batteries is 1000AH; an increase of 31% for not a lot more money and less space than 4 x 110AH which would give a near equivalent capacity (1100AH)

 

Chris

Edited February 17, 2008 by chris w

[Chris Pink]

I would also recommend 135AH batteries....

 

What would your choice of battery model/manufacturer be for 135Ah?

[chris w]

What would your choice of battery model/manufacturer be for 135Ah?

 

I don't have a recommendtion, other than go for the cheapest. They are all the same if they are quoted as 135AH @ the 20hr rate and described as "leisure" or "marine" batteries ie: not just designed for starting, which have thinner plates. Usually the heavier the battery (ie: more lead) the better they will withstand deep discharges.

 

Chris

 

PS: My new boat came with 2 x 135AH batteries on the domestic side. I increased this to 3 x 135AH with one from Denham Marina at around £80 which seemed a competitive price. (Can't remember the make.)

Edited February 18, 2008 by chris w

[steelaway]

What would your choice of battery model/manufacturer be for 135Ah?

 

Hi There

 

I have always tried to buy Exide batteries, for all my 12v needs and have never been disapionted.

Although I have six volt batteries on my boat - not Exide.

 

Alex

[Canal Shop Man]

The total true capacity of 3 x 110AH batteries is 765AH while that of 3 x 135AH batteries is 1000AH; an increase of 31% for not a lot more money and less space than 4 x 110AH which would give a near equivalent capacity (1100AH)

 

Chris

How does 3 x 110 = 765??? Total capacity is 330AH and available power is about half that = 165AH and so on for the other batteries.

[magnetman]

Its all very technical i believe, apparently a bigger Ah capacity is 'more bigger' for some reason. 2x110ah in one bank is more than two seperate 110ah batteries used one after the other. Or something.

[steelaway]

How does 3 x 110 = 765??? Total capacity is 330AH and available power is about half that = 165AH and so on for the other batteries.

 

Hi There

 

Ask Chris W. As I understand it, you have to apply and is subject to 'Phuckit's Law'.

By I am not an expert.

 

Alex

[chris w]

How does 3 x 110 = 765??? Total capacity is 330AH and available power is about half that = 165AH and so on for the other batteries.

 

You sell batteries presumably, but don't seem to understand that their discharge curve is NOT linear; it's an exponential curve. So you can't simply say that the total capacity of 3 x 110AH is 330AH. It's not that simple. One can't use simple linear arithmetic. You need to understand this to be able to advise YOUR customers.

 

Thus 110AH at the 20hr rate is just ONE point on a curve. The general mathematical expression for an exponential curve is Ae^-sT.

 

To calculate the true capacity of 3 x 110AH batteries, the calculation is:

 

((3 x 110)/20)^1.3 x 20 = 765AH QED

 

 

As an example, if one of your customers should ask how long it would take to completely discharge 3 x 110AH batteries if he/she drew 50A continuously from them, you would answer 330/50 = 6.6 hours.

 

This is the wrong answer for the reasons given above.

 

The correct answer is 765/50^1.3 = 4.7 hours (The 765 is the figue derived earlier)

 

This is a negative variance of 30% and results in a run time of 2 hours less for the example given. Thus understanding what is known as "Peukert" mathematics is vitally important when using and/or specifying batteries.

 

Chris

Edited February 21, 2008 by chris w

[Malarky]

What would your choice of battery model/manufacturer be for 135Ah?

 

I also vote deep cycle lead acid type.

It may be worth a visit to a scrap yard for some lorry bat's, don't base choice on cleanliness tho, check the sides are straight as wear can cause them to buckle. You may also find other things you need; fuses, thick wire, terminals, bulbs etc. which could save you the cost on the batterys! Also If you find you actually have some kind of short or drain, and that is your real problem, you won't be damageing new ones, that could be in top order and hide the fault for a while.

Once you know you've got a fault free system, you can assure yourself you did the recycling bit, and still have resources to get new that will last the course.

[grahoom]

This is a negative variance of 30% and results in a run time of 2 hours less for the example given. Thus understanding what is known as "Peukert" mathematics is vitally important when using and/or specifying batteries.

 

I know nothing about batteries - well very little, so i've been reading this site.

 

http://www.batteryuniversity.com

 

quite useful...

[Keeping Up]

Thus understanding what is known as "Peukert" mathematics is vitally important when using and/or specifying batteries.

Or, if you don't like maths or electrics and just want to use the battery without understanding it too much, just think of it as the battery's equivalent of the way that you don't get so many miles per gallon if you drive your car faster. In this case you don't get so much power out of the battery if you use it faster.

 

Yes I know it's not a precise analogy, but it's a useful way of thinking of it sometimes

[chris w]

I know nothing about batteries - well very little, so i've been reading this site.

 

http://www.batteryuniversity.com

 

quite useful...

 

yes that's a great site

 

hris

[ChrisPy]

Or, if you don't like maths or electrics and just want to use the battery without understanding it too much, just think of it as the battery's equivalent of the way that you don't get so many miles per gallon if you drive your car faster. In this case you don't get so much power out of the battery if you use it faster.

 

Yes I know it's not a precise analogy, but it's a useful way of thinking of it sometimes

thank the lord for a bit of clarity .............. that I can understand

[chris w]

Or, if you don't like maths or electrics and just want to use the battery without understanding it too much, just think of it as the battery's equivalent of the way that you don't get so many miles per gallon if you drive your car faster. In this case you don't get so much power out of the battery if you use it faster.

 

Yes I know it's not a precise analogy, but it's a useful way of thinking of it sometimes

 

I think it's quite a clever analogy too from another perspective Allan.................

 

I wax lyrical about the fact that when a battery label states 110AH, the battery doesn't really have a capacity of 110AH.... that figure is just one point on its curve and is not a reliable figure as to how long the battery will last unless you are discharging at the given (usually 20Hr) rate.

 

Everyone instantly accepts without question, and without thinking about it, that the fuel figure for a car is only a guide and will not be applicable to heavy traffic or 100mph bursts up the autostradas or a myriad of combinations inbetween. Notwithstanding, a lot of people seem to find it hard to grasp that exactly the same situation obtains for a battery.

 

A figure of 110AH (at the 20Hr rate) means that the battery will last 20 hours (to total discharge) if discharged at 110/20 = 5.5A . If this same battery is discharged at a higher or lower current than 5.5A then the battery will last less time or more time.

 

But it's not a linear result. So too with the car fuel analogy. We see a figure for the fuel consumption of say 30 miles/gallon quoted in its literature. Just like the battery, that figure will be quoted at some "rate" ie: speed or mode of driving. We also implicitly accept that the fuel rate for the car will not be linear. You wouldn't expect to get twice the fuel economy at 30mph as you would at 60mph and so on. We unconsciously accept that its a curve. It's a curve for a battery too.

 

Even if one doesn't grasp the mathematics, at least Allan's analogy should help you to understand why it is that, even though the capacity is written on the label, it doesn't mean that's the capacity under every condition - it means that the capacity is as stated under one very precise condition only (just like the30mpg will be for a precise condition). For other conditions you need maths.

 

The most useful aspect of stating a capacity on the label is to be able to compare one battery's "size" against another at the same (20Hr) rate.

 

Chris

Edited February 22, 2008 by chris w

[Nickhlx]

 

 

The most useful aspect of stating a capacity on the label is to be able to compare one battery's "size" against another at the same (20Hr) rate.

 

Chris

 

 

Another possible gauge for quality of battery when comparing two makes of the same e.g 110 Ah is its weight. By no means a definitive way to compare, but if one is significantly lighter than the other, it is likely to contain less lead. Of course the case may be thinner etc but all other things being equal it may help decide which to go for

 

Nick