Engine not running after fuel filters change

[Roberto Conigliaro]

Hi everyone, I am a bit of an emergency as I changed the fuel filters on my Barrus Shire engine and now the engine is not running.

It did work for a few minutes after I changed that filters, so I thought that for once all went nice and smooth but no no..

There must be some air lock or something, basically I am not getting any fuel on the second filter, the one closer to the engine - I have tried bleeding both filters and bleeding all the 4 injection vales. Tried to prime it with the manual pump for several minutes and tried to crank the engine for a while too. The first filter has a steady flow of fuel when I open the bleed valve, but the second filter is not getting any fuel at all, I even took it out again and it was pretty dry. (The second filter on the photo it's under the bell manual pump next to the main part of engine)

Any ideas of what might be happing and how to solve the problem?

 

[Tony Brooks]

Try filling the ENGINE filter with clean diesel before fitting it (assuming it is a spin on type).

[Roberto Conigliaro]

3 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

Try filling the ENGINE filter with clean diesel before fitting it (assuming it is a spin on type).

 

They are both the same as the one on the photo attached, I tried to fill them but they leaked straight away so I just waited until the run most of the diesel down and put them on. 

[Alan de Enfield]

Were you careful not to tread on the filter alongside the 'tread plate'

you may have knocked or squashed something.

 

(That's a stupid place to put a filter - or tread plate) 

[Roberto Conigliaro]

4 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Were you careful not to tread on the filter alongside the 'tread plate'

you may have knocked or squashed something.

 

(That's a stupid place to put a filter - or tread plate) 

In think so, I didn't step on it or anything.. as I mentioned, it did work for a few minutes and then stopped. For some reason there's a blockage between the first and second filter and the latter one is not getting any fuel despite all the bleedings...

[ditchcrawler]

9 minutes ago, Roberto Conigliaro said:

In think so, I didn't step on it or anything.. as I mentioned, it did work for a few minutes and then stopped. For some reason there's a blockage between the first and second filter and the latter one is not getting any fuel despite all the bleedings...

Or there is air getting in to the second filter housing so it can't draw fuel from the first. A common cause is the rubber seal in the top of the housing, leaving the old one in place or the O ring on the centre spindle 

[Roberto Conigliaro]

10 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

Or there is air getting in to the second filter housing so it can't draw fuel from the first. A common cause is the rubber seal in the top of the housing, leaving the old one in place or the O ring on the centre spindle 

In which way the rubber seal could cause a problem, do you mean if it's not perfectly tight? I did change all the rubber seals to the new ones and all seemed nice and tight..

Would someone would be so kind to explain all steps / how to bleed the system in order. I must have done something wrong obviously..

 

 

[magnetman]

What is the level of fuel in the tank? 

 

If its low it could be difficult. 

 

Filling the tank will usually help to show up any problems. 

 

 

Assuming it is an ordinary built in tank inside the rounded back end of the Boat. 

 

 

[bizzard]

1 hour ago, Roberto Conigliaro said:

In which way the rubber seal could cause a problem, do you mean if it's not perfectly tight? I did change all the rubber seals to the new ones and all seemed nice and tight..

Would someone would be so kind to explain all steps / how to bleed the system in order. I must have done something wrong obviously..

 

 

It's usually the large thin O ring at the top of the first 296 filter unit that can give trouble. It's a knack, making sure the filter canister is not bulking onto the metal suround instead of snugly onto the sealing 0 ring in the circular slot. Nip the bolt up to not quite tight and gently turn the canister by hand making sure it's seated on the o ring before fully tightening. If it's not seated properly it will obviousely draw in air when you pump the pump on the engine. Obviousely the large thicker 0 ring goes at the bottom of the filter.

Edited February 14 by bizzard

[Scholar Gypsy]

I use a bit of silicon grease to hold the new O-rings in place while fitting everything together.  PS You did make sure the old rings were removed?

[Tony Brooks]

I find it hard to believe that Barrus have fitted a 296 type filter as an engine filter. It sounds as if you might have a sedimentor and agglomerator in addition to the engine filter, but I can't be sure without tracing the pipes.

 

I echo what others have said about the difficulty some people have in getting 2956 type filters to seal. I find that if, when you are approaching, nipping the canister up against the seal, then if you twist the canister you can tell if it is rubbing on rubber or is scraping on metal.

 

If the hidden filter is like the one in the photo and as long as fuel flows into it by gravity, loosen the bleed bolt which is behind/beside the centre bolt until just air flows out. Replace it and do the same on the hidden one.  I think that you may well have yet another one, but until I know I can't say how to bleed it. There is more to do, but until I know more about where each filter is in the system, I can't tell you what to do next.

[ditchcrawler]

Looking online it looks as if Barrus Shires lists a spin off filter, but I dont know which engine the op has 

Edited February 14 by ditchcrawler

[BoatingLifeUpNorth2]

If the set up is the same as the last Barrus Shire engine I bled circa 2000 engine, both the filters are 3 part, housing, filter and bottom drain bowl all held in place by a long bolt, they are not spin on. The engine only has one filter on the engine as seen near the foot plate, it’s not a spin on but has a metal drain bowl on the bottom and is all connected by a long through bolt, I’m sure it didn’t have a bleed nut, unlike the first filter. Obviously once the first filter is bled you need to bleed the engine filter, there’s no need to bleed to the injectors. The silver dome needs to be pumped to bleed it, it’s fairly easy at first, then it gradually gets harder once bled until it’s too stiff to pump, it does take a while, once pumped to max, try starting the engine.
 Have you pumped the silver dome to max?

 Also be careful in over tightening the long bolts on the filters, they do snap.

 

Edited February 15 by BoatingLifeUpNorth2

[Roberto Conigliaro]

11 hours ago, BoatingLifeUpNorth2 said:

If the set up is the same as the last Barrus Shire engine I bled circa 2000 engine, both the filters are 3 part, housing, filter and bottom drain bowl all held in place by a long bolt, they are not spin on. The engine only has one filter on the engine as seen near the foot plate, it’s not a spin on but has a metal drain bowl on the bottom and is all connected by a long through bolt, I’m sure it didn’t have a bleed nut, unlike the first filter. Obviously once the first filter is bled you need to bleed the engine filter, there’s no need to bleed to the injectors. The silver dome needs to be pumped to bleed it, it’s fairly easy at first, then it gradually gets harder once bled until it’s too stiff to pump, it does take a while, once pumped to max, try starting the engine.
 Have you pumped the silver dome to max?

 Also be careful in over tightening the long bolts on the filters, they do snap.

 

Correct! I have got this exact system on my boat. I am gonna re-start the whole process with all the tips about the O rings gave me above (thanks all by the way) and maxing the silver dome pump.

Before I do that, just the last couple of doubts : as you rightly said, the engine filter doesn't have a bleed nut at the top, but a valve at the bottom, i'd assume that's how I bleed it? The first filter has a bleed nut at the top and a bleed valve at the bottom (see attached photo), do I need too bleed them both? Do I bleed the filters before or after having maxed the silver dome pump?

Also do I need to fill both filters with diesel before putting them on, despite the fact that they'll leak most of the diesel straight away? 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

9 minutes ago, Roberto Conigliaro said:

the engine filter doesn't have a bleed nut at the top, but a valve at the bottom, i'd assume that's how I bleed it?

 

You cannot 'bleed'air out of the bottom - air rises in a liquid.

The bottom 'bleed' is a drain to remove water and should be checked and drained (ideally) as part of your daily engine pre-start checks.

[Peugeot 106]

16 hours ago, bizzard said:

It's usually the large thin O ring at the top of the first 296 filter unit that can give trouble. It's a knack, making sure the filter canister is not bulking onto the metal suround instead of snugly onto the sealing 0 ring in the circular slot. Nip the bolt up to not quite tight and gently turn the canister by hand making sure it's seated on the o ring before fully tightening. If it's not seated properly it will obviousely draw in air when you pump the pump on the engine. Obviousely the large thicker 0 ring goes at the bottom of the filter.

Don’t forget to smear a bit of diesel on the o rings before fitting

[hider]

Its almost certain that it is an o ring problem letting the priming pump on the filter head to suck air. The injection pump on the Barras is self bleeding once you get fuel to it, no need to bleed at the injectors.

[Roberto Conigliaro]

1 hour ago, hider said:

Its almost certain that it is an o ring problem letting the priming pump on the filter head to suck air. The injection pump on the Barras is self bleeding once you get fuel to it, no need to bleed at the injectors.

Okay, I am fitting al the 0 rings again with some silicone grease, by doing so I realised that on the second filter I left an old ring (see photo attached), which is larger than one on the filter itself. The filter came with only 2 of the large new replacement 0 rings while here it looks that 3 on total are needed? or I should not fit the 0 ring on the filter itself in this case and just leave the one on there housing?

Edited February 15 by Roberto Conigliaro

[Tony Brooks]

The O ring in the filter should not be there, it will stop the fuel passing through the filter. Pull it out and bin it.

 

The top photo shows that O ring is well-fitted, so when you reassemble when the bolt starts to pull the three parts together start twisting he filter to feel (and hear) if it is rubbing on rubber or metal. It should not rub on metal.

 

 

[BoatingLifeUpNorth2]

It’s a awkward fit to get everything aligned on the engine filter, you can bleed it, get it running and still have a small leak from the filter, you could tighten the bolt slightly to seal, but whatever you do do not overlay force tighten, as you can snap that bolt. Then it’s a pain, but if you do they are readily available.

[ditchcrawler]

2 hours ago, Roberto Conigliaro said:

Correct! I have got this exact system on my boat. I am gonna re-start the whole process with all the tips about the O rings gave me above (thanks all by the way) and maxing the silver dome pump.

Before I do that, just the last couple of doubts : as you rightly said, the engine filter doesn't have a bleed nut at the top, but a valve at the bottom, i'd assume that's how I bleed it? The first filter has a bleed nut at the top and a bleed valve at the bottom (see attached photo), do I need too bleed them both? Do I bleed the filters before or after having maxed the silver dome pump?

Also do I need to fill both filters with diesel before putting them on, despite the fact that they'll leak most of the diesel straight away? 

 

This is the bleed so if you try and bleed it correctly before taking it to bits it may work 

[Roberto Conigliaro]

2 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

The O ring in the filter should not be there, it will stop the fuel passing through the filter. Pull it out and bin it.

 

The top photo shows that O ring is well-fitted, so when you reassemble when the bolt starts to pull the three parts together start twisting he filter to feel (and hear) if it is rubbing on rubber or metal. It should not rub on metal.

 

 

We found the culprit! I had fitted (without realising it) 3 of the large O rings in the second filter and in the first filter, I had fitted the top O ring in the wrong place : on the filter itself rather than on the slot in the metal housing.. 

All worked now - the hand pump got harder and harder and after a couple of cranking attempts the engine was running 

Thanks everyone for the great help  🤗

Edited February 15 by Roberto Conigliaro

[bizzard]

8 hours ago, Peugeot 106 said:

Don’t forget to smear a bit of diesel on the o rings before fitting

No need really it's not a spin on filter.

[Tony Brooks]

1 minute ago, bizzard said:

No need really it's not a spin on filter.

 

Agreed, putting diesel on the top seal may well help it fall out, and make t harder to feel when the filter is twisted during assembly if it is in contact with rubber or metal.

 

I have been getting a bit peed off with well-meaning advice given from a position of lack of know;edge over the last few days. This is juts another example.

[Peugeot 106]

1 hour ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

Agreed, putting diesel on the top seal may well help it fall out, and make t harder to feel when the filter is twisted during assembly if it is in contact with rubber or metal.

 

I have been getting a bit peed off with well-meaning advice given from a position of lack of know;edge over the last few days. This is juts another example.

Well am I sorry Tony.   I’m not peed off but I am slightly pissed off

 

Do I take it that you are the only one + a couple of others who are allowed to offer help  on this forum?

 

i have fitted loads of replacement filters in various CAV filters - I have a farming and yacht background - and never had a problem though I accept that rubbing diesel on isn’t necessary as @bizzardsays.  Bizzard didn’t patronise me.

 

 

You don’t always get things totally correct either Tony though I will bow to your experience and expertise. You have certainly helped me in the past.  
 

I don’t mind being corrected politely and in fact welcome it