What do I look for in/on an engine?

[Lodewicus]

Hi 👋 so I'm currently looking for my first narrowboat and I know that the things I need to concentrate on are the hull and the engine. 

 

I've opened up the boards to look at the engine on each boat I've visited but apart from seeing if it's sitting in a puddle of oil or water I don't really have much clue of what I should be looking at. 

 

Could you please give me some pointers as to what to look for? Or which parts I should be paying most attention to?

 

Thank you 😊 

[Alan de Enfield]

56 minutes ago, Lodewicus said:

Hi 👋 so I'm currently looking for my first narrowboat and I know that the things I need to concentrate on are the hull and the engine. 

 

I've opened up the boards to look at the engine on each boat I've visited but apart from seeing if it's sitting in a puddle of oil or water I don't really have much clue of what I should be looking at. 

 

Could you please give me some pointers as to what to look for? Or which parts I should be paying most attention to?

 

Thank you 😊 

 

If you do not know about engines then 'looking' will not be much use to you, without knowing 'how it should sound' what the exhaust 'smoke' should look like you will learn very little.

 

Is the engine room / engine hole clean and dry, no oil or oily water under the engine.

Does the exhaust have 'black dust on it' (holes in exhaust)

 

What paperwork is there, any records of engine servicing or other maintenance ?

 

If you are worried you can ask the surveyor for a "Hull and mechanical gear" survey which will include investigating the engine, sending the oil sample away for analysis etc. It will cost a bit more but if you want some reassurance about the engine it 'costs'

 

 

Edited January 5 by Alan de Enfield

[ditchcrawler]

57 minutes ago, Lodewicus said:

  apart from seeing if it's sitting in a puddle of oil or water I don't really have much clue of what I should be looking at.  

Thats quite a good start, it its covered in dirty oil from oil leaks and rust from hoses dribbling with loads of oily water in the grip tray its probably not well cared for 

[Tonka]

Just now, ditchcrawler said:

Thats quite a good start, it its covered in dirty oil from oil leaks and rust from hoses dribbling with loads of oily water in the grip tray its probably not well cared for 

Or if it is a cruiser stern the floor boards are not watertight 

[LadyG]

I think you need longevity, so the makes used by hire firms are a start. I'm assuming you don't want a Vintage engine.

I have Isuzu, there was Canaline, and now there is Beta and the likes. BMC, that's the 1960s British Motor Company, still have spares,  and rebuilds are possible. I believe,

It may depend on how old the boat is, what was installed at the time.

I understand Vetus are put in modern boat because they are cheap, so I'd swerve them.

You could look at my engine hole and see it is the original engine though one mount has been replaced. Everything is clean and dry so I can spot any problem. The hoses are dry and clean, no cracks, probably original. The fastenings, mainly stainless steel are not cutting in to the hoses nor loose.

There is no water in the engine hole, but there is a barrier which prevents weeping from the stern tube coming in to the main engine compartment, it has a bilge pump. This arrangement will vary.

There was no log book with my boat when I bought it, but it looked OK, not obviously neglected.

I believe you can get the oil tested to determine the engine wear and tear.

Other than that take it out for a run.

The gearbox, and the propshaft should not be rattling, crunching,  or loose, but then neither should the engine!

Edited January 5 by LadyG

[Lodewicus]

19 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

If you do not know about engines then 'looking' will not be much use to you, without knowing 'how it should sound' what the exhaust 'smoke' should look like you will learn very little.

 

Is the engine room / engine hole clean and dry, no oil or oily water under the engine.

Does the exhaust have 'black dust on it' (holes in exhaust)

 

What paperwork is there, any records of engine servicing or other maintenance ?

 

If you are worried you can ask the surveyor for a "Hull and mechanical gear" survey which will include investigating the engine, sending the oil sample away for analysis etc. It will cost a bit more but if you want some reassurance about the engine it 'costs'

 

 

Thank you. 

 

With my car I can tell if it's not right by the sound of it. I guess the same will happen over time with a narrowboat engine. 

[Lodewicus]

15 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

Thats quite a good start, it its covered in dirty oil from oil leaks and rust from hoses dribbling with loads of oily water in the grip tray its probably not well cared for 

Thanks. 

 

Yes that's what I would think. 

 

[Lodewicus]

14 minutes ago, Tonka said:

Or if it is a cruiser stern the floor boards are not watertight 

Thanks.

 

Yes! I was advised to avoid cruiser sterns, but have come to the conclusion that I won't let stern type out me off of a boat that feels right. 

 

I lifted the boards on a cruiser stern and found an issue that they needed to solve, lol. Also the board had blown and wasn't sitting properly (made of wood). 

[Lodewicus]

7 minutes ago, LadyG said:

I think you need longevity, so the makes used by hire firms are a start. I'm assuming you don't want a Vintage engine.

I have Isuzu, there was Canaline, and now there is Beta and the likes.

It may depend on how old the boat is, what was installed at the time.

I understand Vetus are put in modern boat because they are cheap, so I'd swerve them.

You could look at my engine hole and see it is the original engine though one mount has been replaced. Everything is clean and dry so I can spot any problem. The hoses are dry and clean, no cracks, probably original. The fastenings, mainly stainless steel are not cutting in to the hoses nor loose.

There is no water in the engine hole, but there is a barrier which prevents weepng from the stern tube coming in to the main engine compartment, it has a bilge pump. This arrangement will vary.

There was no log book with my boat when I bought it, but it looked OK, not obviously neglected.

I believe you can get the oil tested to determine the engine wear and tear.

Other than that take it out for a run.

The gearbox, and the propshaft should not be rattling or loose, but then neither should the engine!

Thank you for all the tips. 

 

I was advised to avoid Barrus Shire but not why. 

 

The boat I'm considering the most has an air cooled Lister under a cruiser stern. My budget isn't huge so I'm aware I'm at the bottom end of the market with it all. Engines are something I'm going to take the time to learn more about. 

 

One broker I went to said they could start the engine but in no way shape or form could I take the boat out for a test. That confused me a bit. 

 

 

[MtB]

Also, look at the tachometer. There will usually be a 'running hours' meter on it too. Its generally considered it is getting close to needing a rebuild when the hours get towards 10,000. 

[Tonka]

4 minutes ago, Lodewicus said:

Thank you for all the tips. 

 

I was advised to avoid Barrus Shire but not why. 

 

The boat I'm considering the most has an air cooled Lister under a cruiser stern. My budget isn't huge so I'm aware I'm at the bottom end of the market with it all. Engines are something I'm going to take the time to learn more about. 

 

One broker I went to said they could start the engine but in no way shape or form could I take the boat out for a test. That confused me a bit. 

 

 

How old is the boat ?

is it to live on ? if so how is the water heated ?

 

[Tony Brooks]

Dip the oil and see how thick it is, the thicker and blacker, the more likely the servicing has been neglected. You may have to do this on several boats to get an idea of how runny the oil should be. It should be a little more runny than that in modern car, but not much. Ditto the gearbox oil, but it might be red and a bit thinner. Dark gearbox oil suggest a lack of oil changes.

 

Check the coolant in the header tank, you should be able to see it, and it should not be very rusty coloured. It should be slightly sweet if you put the merest drop on your tongue. No sweetness indicates no antifreeze - a bad sign of lack of maintenance (note a few old canal boats my use canal/river water for cooling, my advice is avoiding them).

 

I would suggest feel it and see if it is stone-cold, if not the vendor might be trying to hide a bad stater (worn out engine/battery) from you. If it is warm, arrange to come back in a few hours and specify the engine must be stone-cold.

 

If it is cold, go through the starting procedure (or ask the vendor to do it).  A good engine should start within seconds/a very few revolutions, once the starter is operated, a bad one will take longer.

 

Once running, give it a bit of a rev and let it idle, look at the lights/gauges.

 

There should be no warning lamps on APART from on some boats an ignition on warning - that is different to charge warning lamp(s).

Any oil pressure gauge should read at least 40 psi when cold and preferably closer to 60psi.

Any temperature gauge should read at the bottom of it's scale at this time (usually fully anti-clockwise)

If there is a voltmeter it should read at least 13.5 V but the closer to 14.4 the better - the higher the reading the better charged the battery is likely to be.

 

Now look at the exhaust and give it a rev, the exhaust should be fairly clear, but if not, don't worry for now, go and look at the rest of the boat. After 15 minutes, come back and rev to about 1200 to 1500 rpm. The exhaust should be more or less clear, if not the injectors might need attention.

 

Watch the engine as you rev it. It should not shake about much and the exhaust beat should be even with no gaps or coughs. An uneven exhaust beat, coughing or silent gaps in the beat suggests a misfire, could be injection equipment or a worn engine.

 

By now any temperature gauge should read close to 80 to 90C and all the warning lamps should still be out.

 

Good luck

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Tonka]

3 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

Dip the oil and see how thick it is, the thicker and blacker, the more likely the servicing has been neglected. You may have to do this on several boats to get an idea of how runny the oil should be. It should be a little more runny than that in modern car, but not much. Ditto the gearbox oil, but it might be red and a bit thinner. Dark gearbox oil suggest a lack of oil changes.

 

Check the coolant in the header tank, you should be able to see it, and it should not be very rusty coloured. It should be slightly sweet if you put the merest drop on your tongue. No sweetness indicates no antifreeze - a bad sign of lack of maintenance (note a few old canal boats my use canal/river water for cooling, my advice is avoiding them).

 

I would suggest feel it and see if it is stone-cold, if not the vendor might be trying to hide a bad stater (worn out engine/battery) from you. If it is warm, arrange to come back in a few hours and specify the engine must be stone-cold.

 

If it is cold, go through the starting procedure (or ask the vendor to do it).  A good engine should start within seconds/a very few revolutions, once the starter is operated, a bad one will take longer.

 

Once running, give it a bit of a rev and let it idle, look at the lights/gauges.

 

There should be no warning lamps on APART from on some boats an ignition on warning - that is different to charge warning lamp(s).

Any oil pressure gauge should read at least 40 psi when cold and preferably closer to 60psi.

Any temperature gauge should read at the bottom of it's scale at this time (usually fully anti-clockwise)

If there is a voltmeter it should read at least 13.5 V but the closer to 14.4 the better - the higher the reading the better charged the battery is likely to be.

 

Now look at the exhaust and give it a rev, the exhaust should be fairly clear, but if not, don't worry for now, go and look at the rest of the boat. After 15 minutes, come back and rev to about 1200 to 1500 rpm. The exhaust should be more or less clear, if not the injectors might need attention.

 

Watch the engine as you rev it. It should not shake about much and the exhaust beat should be even with no gaps or coughs. An uneven exhaust beat, coughing or silent gaps in the beat suggests a misfire, could be injection equipment or a worn engine.

 

By now any temperature gauge should read close to 80 to 90C and all the warning lamps should still be out.

 

Good luck

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

you are talking about a water cooled engine 

the op likes an air cooled the best so far

[Tony Brooks]

12 minutes ago, Lodewicus said:

I was advised to avoid Barrus Shire but not why. 

 

Personally, I think there are better value engines out there. The base unit is fine, but I get the impression spares are expensive, but nowhere near as bad a Vetus. This applies to the Shire range. Definitely steer clear of their budget range Shakes engines. not very long-lasting or reliable at all.

3 minutes ago, Tonka said:

you are talking about a water cooled engine 

the op likes an air cooled the best so far

 

Yes, now he has told us. At that end of the market, he will get what is available at the price he will pay.

[alias]

26 minutes ago, Lodewicus said:

One broker I went to said they could start the engine but in no way shape or form could I take the boat out for a test. That confused me a bit. 

 

I was told that at one broker and questioned it.  Their explanation was that with a flight of locks in one direction, and with the nearest winding point in the other direction being two hours away, they didn't think it a reasonable request due to the time either journey would take. 

[MtB]

31 minutes ago, Lodewicus said:

One broker I went to said they could start the engine but in no way shape or form could I take the boat out for a test. That confused me a bit. 

 

One gets this at car dealerships too. (DAMHIK.)

 

In my case I think it was code for "We don't think you can afford this so we are not going to waste our time taking you on a test run out". 

 

Another dealership took a different view and I bought a car from them. 

 

Not all brokers are the same. Or car dealerships. 

 

 

[Gybe Ho]

2 hours ago, Lodewicus said:

 

Could you please give me some pointers as to what to look for? Or which parts I should be paying most attention to?

 

 

1. Look at the oil colour on dipstick, if a brown/cream colour that is water mixed in with the oil = big problem
2. Are there random wires snaking around the engine bay and connected with bulldog clips = ouch bodged DIY electrics
3. How many inline fuse holders can you see in the engine bay? Too many = indicates yet more bodged owner electrical projects
4. * If in water, does it start?
5. Does the engine squeal as it starts = loose fanbelt, small cost to fix
6. Hear a heavy knocking sound for a few second when the engine is cold = worn bearings inside but difficult to distinguish from regular diesel engine clunking sounds.
7. Weird blue or white tinge to exhaust smoke colour = needs investigating
8. Gently engage forward gear, does the boat tug against the mooring lines
9. Same for reverse
10. Don't rev too much and yank the mooring pins out
11. Engine off then repeat the dipstick oil colour check
12. Batteries poorly secured = common BSS inspection failure point these days.

 

* Be very careful starting an engine out of the water, you don't want to find a minced human dead under the propellor at the end of your inspection.

Edited January 5 by Gybe Ho

[alias]

13 minutes ago, MtB said:

Not all brokers are the same.

 

Indeed not.  A request for a demonstration from another plain speaking broker with a Yorkshire accent later that day was met with: "if that's what it takes to help you get your hand in your pocket, let's go".

[MtB]

1 minute ago, alias said:

 

Indeed not.  A request for a demonstration from another plain speaking broker with a Yorkshire accent later that day was met with: "if that's what it takes to help you get your hand in your pocket, let's go".

 

Lol exactly! 

 

To be fair I was out looking at cars wearing my very best boater gear and making all the local scarecrows look smart and stylish. Bit of a test, really. 

 

 

[David Mack]

42 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

This applies to the Shire range. Definitely steer clear of their budget range Shakes engines. not very long-lasting or reliable at all.

I think Barrus's budget range was 'Shanks'. I agree with Tony, it is to be avoided.

59 minutes ago, Lodewicus said:

The boat I'm considering the most has an air cooled Lister under a cruiser stern.

Most probably an SR or ST. Absolutely bomb proof and will run for ever, even if badly worn. Spares are available. The main thing to watch for is that the injector pumps are inside the crank case so any fuel leaks will be inside the engine and will dilute the engine oil. So watch out for a rising level on the dipstick.

Usually very noisy, which makes conversation impossible, particularly on a cruiser stern. Unlike water cooled engines it won't heat your domestic hot water.

[Lodewicus]

1 hour ago, MtB said:

Also, look at the tachometer. There will usually be a 'running hours' meter on it too. Its generally considered it is getting close to needing a rebuild when the hours get towards 10,000. 

They have those? Ok I'll keep an eye out, thanks.

1 hour ago, Tonka said:

How old is the boat ?

is it to live on ? if so how is the water heated ?

 

1980. Yes to live on. Water heated by immersion or alde boiler. 

 

Was going to see it this weekend but the snow put an end to that. 

1 hour ago, Tony Brooks said:

Dip the oil and see how thick it is, the thicker and blacker, the more likely the servicing has been neglected. You may have to do this on several boats to get an idea of how runny the oil should be. It should be a little more runny than that in modern car, but not much. Ditto the gearbox oil, but it might be red and a bit thinner. Dark gearbox oil suggest a lack of oil changes.

 

Check the coolant in the header tank, you should be able to see it, and it should not be very rusty coloured. It should be slightly sweet if you put the merest drop on your tongue. No sweetness indicates no antifreeze - a bad sign of lack of maintenance (note a few old canal boats my use canal/river water for cooling, my advice is avoiding them).

 

I would suggest feel it and see if it is stone-cold, if not the vendor might be trying to hide a bad stater (worn out engine/battery) from you. If it is warm, arrange to come back in a few hours and specify the engine must be stone-cold.

 

If it is cold, go through the starting procedure (or ask the vendor to do it).  A good engine should start within seconds/a very few revolutions, once the starter is operated, a bad one will take longer.

 

Once running, give it a bit of a rev and let it idle, look at the lights/gauges.

 

There should be no warning lamps on APART from on some boats an ignition on warning - that is different to charge warning lamp(s).

Any oil pressure gauge should read at least 40 psi when cold and preferably closer to 60psi.

Any temperature gauge should read at the bottom of it's scale at this time (usually fully anti-clockwise)

If there is a voltmeter it should read at least 13.5 V but the closer to 14.4 the better - the higher the reading the better charged the battery is likely to be.

 

Now look at the exhaust and give it a rev, the exhaust should be fairly clear, but if not, don't worry for now, go and look at the rest of the boat. After 15 minutes, come back and rev to about 1200 to 1500 rpm. The exhaust should be more or less clear, if not the injectors might need attention.

 

Watch the engine as you rev it. It should not shake about much and the exhaust beat should be even with no gaps or coughs. An uneven exhaust beat, coughing or silent gaps in the beat suggests a misfire, could be injection equipment or a worn engine.

 

By now any temperature gauge should read close to 80 to 90C and all the warning lamps should still be out.

 

Good luck

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Wow! Thank you for this. I've copied to a document so I have it with me when I go see a boat. Thank you. 

45 minutes ago, alias said:

 

I was told that at one broker and questioned it.  Their explanation was that with a flight of locks in one direction, and with the nearest winding point in the other direction being two hours away, they didn't think it a reasonable request due to the time either journey would take. 

Yup I was told the same. Doesn't mean it couldn't have gone around the marina ... It wouldn't be much but would surely give some idea of handling?

 

The other thing that was suggested was the boats wouldn't have a licence/insurance/bss. 

41 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

One gets this at car dealerships too. (DAMHIK.)

 

In my case I think it was code for "We don't think you can afford this so we are not going to waste our time taking you on a test run out". 

 

Another dealership took a different view and I bought a car from them. 

 

Not all brokers are the same. Or car dealerships. 

 

 

This is so true. I asked in the generic sense before I'd stepped foot on any boats. But also I tend to look like I've been dragged through a hedge backwards when I go to view boats so that probably doesn't help, lol. 

 

Let's put it this way. I didn't find one that I even wanted to ask them to start the engine of. 

32 minutes ago, Gybe Ho said:

 

1. Look at the oil colour on dipstick, if a brown/cream colour that is water mixed in with the oil = big problem
2. Are there random wires snaking around the engine bay and connected with bulldog clips = ouch bodged DIY electrics
3. How many inline fuse holders can you see in the engine bay? Too many = indicates yet more bodged owner electrical projects
4. * If in water, does it start?
5. Does the engine squeal as it starts = loose fanbelt, small cost to fix
6. Hear a heaving knocking sound for a few second when the engine is cold = worn bearings inside but difficult to distinguish from regular diesel engine clunking sounds.
7. Weird blue or white tinge to exhaust smoke colour = needs investigating
8. Gently engage forward gear, does the boat tug against the mooring lines
9. Same for reverse
10. Don't rev too much and yank the mooring pins out
11. Engine off then repeat the dipstick oil colour check
12. Batteries poorly secured = common BSS inspection failure point these days.

 

* Be very careful starting an engine out of the water, you don't want to find a minced human dead under the propellor at the end of your inspection.

Minced human 😂 😂 😂 love it!

 

Thank you. At one boat they decided to start the engine without me asking. It just wouldn't start (they said the batteries must have been too low) they sprayed it with easy start in the end. I'm guessing that was a red flag? The guy said he didn't like doing that as the engine can get addicted to it but they wanted it started. 

26 minutes ago, alias said:

 

Indeed not.  A request for a demonstration from another plain speaking broker with a Yorkshire accent later that day was met with: "if that's what it takes to help you get your hand in your pocket, let's go".

Now that's a good attitude!

22 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

Lol exactly! 

 

To be fair I was out looking at cars wearing my very best boater gear and making all the local scarecrows look smart and stylish. Bit of a test, really. 

 

 

That's how I tend to look all the time 🤣🤣🤣

[Alan de Enfield]

Air cooled engines are often not generating electricity as well as a modern water cooled engine with a couple of alternators.

Fixes can be had, it may already have been done, or it may not.

 

They were designed for the likes of dumpers so never needed to produce anything more than a 'top-up' for the starter battery.

But there were 'marine' options - I do have a copy of the Marinised version manual for the SR series if you get it.

 

You will need a full set of imperial spanners and tools - forget all these foreign Iohnny come lately metric things.

 

Try and find out the battery charging arrangements (how many batteries are there for both domestic bank and starter) Is there an ammeter anywhere showing a charge rate when the engine is running - ideally a DC Clamp meter would give you an idea but you probably don't have one (yet)

 

[Gybe Ho]

1 hour ago, Lodewicus said:

 

Thank you. At one boat they decided to start the engine without me asking. It just wouldn't start (they said the batteries must have been too low) they sprayed it with easy start in the end. I'm guessing that was a red flag? The guy said he didn't like doing that as the engine can get addicted to it but they wanted it started. 

 

 

Not necessarily. At this time of year a neglected boat with a part charged starter battery, ice cold viscous engine oil, a hint of gummy diesel bug in the fuel lines etc. it is a minor miracle any such engine would start. The more interesting test would be 24 hours later when the engine is cold again, this time you want the engine to start without the spray otherwise the concern would be loss of cylinder compression or other serious stuff on the fuel injection side.

Edited January 5 by Gybe Ho

[Lodewicus]

6 minutes ago, Gybe Ho said:

 

Not necessarily. A this time of year a neglected boat with a part charged starter battery, ice cold viscous engine oil, a hint of gummy diesel bug in the fuel lines etc. it is a minor miracle any such engine would start. The more interesting test would be 24 hours later when the engine is cold again, this time you want the engine to start without the spray otherwise the concern would be loss of cylinder compression or other serious stuff on the fuel injection side.

Ahh ok. Yes. Makes sense. Thank you. 

 

Sadly I had to walk away from that boat for other reasons, much as I loved it!

 

 

[Tonka]

21 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Air cooled engines are often not generating electricity as well as a modern water cooled engine with a couple of alternators.

Fixes can be had, it may already have been done, or it may not.

 

They were designed for the likes of dumpers so never needed to produce anything more than a 'top-up' for the starter battery.

But there were 'marine' options - I do have a copy of the Marinised version manual for the SR series if you get it.

 

You will need a full set of imperial spanners and tools - forget all these foreign Iohnny come lately metric things.

 

Try and find out the battery charging arrangements (how many batteries are there for both domestic bank and starter) Is there an ammeter anywhere showing a charge rate when the engine is running - ideally a DC Clamp meter would give you an idea but you probably don't have one (yet)

 

And please don't try to bodge it by using an adjustable spanner. You will round off the nuts and then never get it out