Cedar 2024

[DShK]

I thought I'd put up a little log of the work we're doing on Cedar on here. I joined the forum I think about 3 years ago now, and I received a lot of help as a newbie boater. I was steered away from buying a historic boat, a good decision at the time! I thought I'd contribute to the forum in a way that isn't just asking/answering noob questions.

 

She's staying as an unconverted butty. But she's been looking a bit worse for wear. Her bottom and footings aren't particularly old, so I am not expecting any project-ending metalwork to need doing. The work I can do myself I will be. What I know at this point:

 

1. The whole boat needs blasting and painting. The hold is a rusty soup.
2. There ironwork is thinning behind a few knees which need cutting out and a new plate put in. The knees will then be rivetted back in.
3. The knee bends are in varying conditions. Hoping to have these restored with new steel.
4. There's a one or two large dents which I may well have pushed out.
5. The stern deck needs de-riveting, de-rusting, painting and re-rivetting, as rust has set in between the plates.
6. New gunnels, cants and beams. New running gear in due time but I don't see that happening within the next year.
7. New shutts
8. New paint on the cabin - she'll be kept in Erewash livery.
9. Any other work that shows up from the blasting.

 

Work done so far - myself and Jon from Menzie's Marineware have started stripping the boat.

 

The starting point - 

 

 

(I took some 3d scans for good measure and another project...) 

 

 

Once the running gear and cloths were off, we starting taking the gunnels off. We were given some great advice on how best to do this by a chap in the yard. Circular saw between each coach bolt, then hammer a wedge into the grain to split it. Grind the coach bolts off.

 

 

Splitting the rotten cants off:

 

 

Cants/gunnels off. The gunnel angle looks in reasonable condition, so that's good. We left sections of gunnel where the crossbeams are, to give her a bit more rigidity when she's craned.

 

 

Paint can hide the true condition of wood, the deck beam looked decent. As you can see, it was not. The problem here is the coach bolt holes were covered with filler. As the wood contracted, it pushed many of these plugs out and the seal broken. Water was able to get in and rot the wood out. It has been suggested to me to make plugs out of the same wood (expand/contract at the same rate) and fill the gaps with tar.

 

 

Cabin beam wood was good, but we had suspicions there was rust setting under it. Off it came, and yes - there was a decent amount of corrosion. The interface between wood and metal had tried to be sealed with a bituminous strip - but this had not really helped. Very difficult to get a long term seal between wood and metal as I understand it (difference in reaction to weather/temp, means the seal will eventually fail).

 

 

Starting to take the shutts out and cleaning up the soup. Some of the knee bends really are held to together with hopes and prayers.

 

 

And here she is as she sits. Rest of the shutts to come out, and the stern cants. Then stripping off portholes, vents etc ready for blasting. 

 

 

Edited October 7, 2024 by DShK

[ditchcrawler]

Is she or was she above Glascote locks last week?

 

[Alan de Enfield]

1 hour ago, DShK said:

I thought I'd put up a little log of the work we're doing on Cedar on here.

 

 

Are you rebuilding her  / him / it as a commercial boat, or a recreational boat ?

 

Are you aware that the conversion of any 'commercial' boat to a recreational boat required compliance with the RCR.

It is as well to do it properly (and to code) whilst you are at this stage rather than trying to get it certified once finished and loads on non-compliant 'things' are found.

 

                                                             What are the Recreational Craft Regulations (RCR)?

The Recreational Craft Regulations (RCR) are UK law that applies to all craft in scope when first placed on the UK market or put into service on the UK market, this includes all new craft and second hand craft brought into the UK regardless of age. It can also apply to craft that may have been used as commercial craft before being put on the recreational market regardless of age, and craft having undergone Major Craft Conversion.

 

 

What is a Major Craft Conversion?

According to the Recreational Craft Regulations, a Major Craft Conversion is ” … a conversion of a watercraft which changes the means of propulsion of the watercraft, involves a major engine modification, or alters the watercraft to such an extent that it may not meet the applicable essential safety and environmental requirements ...”.

 

[DShK]

1 hour ago, ditchcrawler said:

Is she or was she above Glascote locks last week?

 

That was her!

 

44 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

Are you rebuilding her  / him / it as a commercial boat, or a recreational boat ?

 

Are you aware that the conversion of any 'commercial' boat to a recreational boat required compliance with the RCR.

It is as well to do it properly (and to code) whilst you are at this stage rather than trying to get it certified once finished and loads on non-compliant 'things' are found.

 

                                                             What are the Recreational Craft Regulations (RCR)?

The Recreational Craft Regulations (RCR) are UK law that applies to all craft in scope when first placed on the UK market or put into service on the UK market, this includes all new craft and second hand craft brought into the UK regardless of age. It can also apply to craft that may have been used as commercial craft before being put on the recreational market regardless of age, and craft having undergone Major Craft Conversion.

 

 

What is a Major Craft Conversion?

According to the Recreational Craft Regulations, a Major Craft Conversion is ” … a conversion of a watercraft which changes the means of propulsion of the watercraft, involves a major engine modification, or alters the watercraft to such an extent that it may not meet the applicable essential safety and environmental requirements ...”.

 

 

Let me be absolutely clear that I will stop participating in this thread if it's going to be hijacked into yet another RCR discussion.

[Zen]

I know I'm new here but... I don't think that was Alans plan, seemed like a heads up FYI to me but what do I know...

 

I'm just amazed by the amount of work you have already done, cant imagine the costs involved in this project,  love to see how it all ends, please keep us updated.

[DShK]

Small but laborious job done today - all the shutts out.  It's a bit soupy with rust. Next job - clear out all the detritus. The knee bends seem to be in surprisingly good shape, most seem pretty solid, with only a few looking like they require attention.

 

[merline]

Great work! Keep it up, I for one would be very interested to follow progress, I hope many others will.

Don't be put off by the self appointed forum lawyer.....

[Stroudwater1]

Great work so far. I would be inclined to keep the dents, it’s very much part of the buttys history.
 

I admit sometimes I find that dents are a helpful way of being more sure that a boat is historic, some recent builds look like older boats so the dents help confirm age. 😔

[Zen]

Good job about the knee bends, are you going to put a temp material cover on whilst you clean the insides areas? The weather not going to be your friend anymore. 

Can't wait until we see the end result

[DShK]

18 hours ago, Stroudwater1 said:

Great work so far. I would be inclined to keep the dents, it’s very much part of the buttys history.
 

I admit sometimes I find that dents are a helpful way of being more sure that a boat is historic, some recent builds look like older boats so the dents help confirm age. 😔

 

I don't mind her general wobbliness, it does add character, but there are one or two quite unsightly large deformities that really could do with being addressed.

 

 

1 hour ago, Zen said:

Good job about the knee bends, are you going to put a temp material cover on whilst you clean the insides areas? The weather not going to be your friend anymore. 

Can't wait until we see the end result

 

No cover, I just pump her out routinely (I bought an automatic bilge pump that doesn't seem to be doing things automatically....) But she's going to be in a polytunnel for a number of months quite soon, so she'll be protected from the elements.

 

[alan_fincher]

Unless they are causing some genuine problrms, my vote is also "keep the dents".

 

After all, they are certainly an authentic part of the history of CEDAR.

[DShK]

12 minutes ago, alan_fincher said:

Unless they are causing some genuine problrms, my vote is also "keep the dents".

 

After all, they are certainly an authentic part of the history of CEDAR.

 

I get your point, but you could then also make the argument the rust is part of the history of Cedar... Where do you draw the line?

 

Well, it all depends on cost, either way. Need to spend where it makes sense, to make the best use of funds.

Edited October 16, 2024 by DShK

[agg221]

This should be a very interesting project, particularly as a parallel to the recently rebuilt Ash.

 

A couple of thoughts/observations in case they are useful.

 

1. If the knees are thinning across a relatively small area around the bend, it may be worth considering pad welding over the surface rather than cutting out. Yes, the corrosion is likely to be mainly from behind and the pad would be mostly on top but if it won't be too visible it could potentially achieve the desired result with less loss of the original fabric. Dressing off the surface of a pad weld can be done neatly and the curve blended in.

 

2. The use of wood plugs - pretty much all wood has the same expansion and contraction, give or take. There is more change with moisture uptake than with heat, so it doesn't matter which wood you use for plugs, although you are likely to have convenient offcuts and at least they will match for grain and colour. Tar is very difficult to obtain and really you would want a blend of tar and pitch to try and get it to not crack in winter but not melt and run in summer - not easy. An alternative which is still obtainable is Jeffery's No.2 marine glue which is still obtainable and very good for this job. You will also inevitably have gaps between gunwhale sections and the odd crack which happens in the wood. We have started sealing these up with Captain Tolley's creeping crack cure - will advise on how that works out, but it is very quick to do and hence easy to repeat if needed. So far it has worked but it is early days.

 

Alec

[David Mack]

9 minutes ago, agg221 said:

1. If the knees are thinning across a relatively small area around the bend, it may be worth considering pad welding over the surface rather than cutting out. Yes, the corrosion is likely to be mainly from behind and the pad would be mostly on top but if it won't be too visible it could potentially achieve the desired result with less loss of the original fabric. Dressing off the surface of a pad weld can be done neatly and the curve blended in.

Knee bends on Belfast prepped for repair and after replacement plating. More easily done when you are also rebottoming and refooting.

 

[spud]

they are doing a northwich butty at brinklow

[agg221]

Definitely a neater job when done the way @David Mack has illustrated, but as mentioned it does depend on access.

Alec

[DShK]

On 16/10/2024 at 23:07, agg221 said:

This should be a very interesting project, particularly as a parallel to the recently rebuilt Ash.

 

A couple of thoughts/observations in case they are useful.

 

1. If the knees are thinning across a relatively small area around the bend, it may be worth considering pad welding over the surface rather than cutting out. Yes, the corrosion is likely to be mainly from behind and the pad would be mostly on top but if it won't be too visible it could potentially achieve the desired result with less loss of the original fabric. Dressing off the surface of a pad weld can be done neatly and the curve blended in.

 

2. The use of wood plugs - pretty much all wood has the same expansion and contraction, give or take. There is more change with moisture uptake than with heat, so it doesn't matter which wood you use for plugs, although you are likely to have convenient offcuts and at least they will match for grain and colour. Tar is very difficult to obtain and really you would want a blend of tar and pitch to try and get it to not crack in winter but not melt and run in summer - not easy. An alternative which is still obtainable is Jeffery's No.2 marine glue which is still obtainable and very good for this job. You will also inevitably have gaps between gunwhale sections and the odd crack which happens in the wood. We have started sealing these up with Captain Tolley's creeping crack cure - will advise on how that works out, but it is very quick to do and hence easy to repeat if needed. So far it has worked but it is early days.

 

Alec

 

That's great info, thank you. As an aside - we got stuck behind you in the tunnel to the basin on the BCN challenge, with Cedar. I am terribly claustrophobic, so being stuck in that tiny tunnel with, what was it 5 boat engines running (the stove was going on Cedar too!) and no idea what was going on, was a bit of a nightmare for me! haha

 

Got the stern cants off and the remaining coach bolts cut off. Started sweeping up all the rust in the hold too. Need to wait for it to dry, then another sweep, a scrape and a power wash. It's been suggested that I need to needlegun the scale as the grit blasting won't really deal with that, so when she's out of the water I'll be doing that.

 

[BEngo]

No need to needle gun anywhere that is going to be blasted.  Choose the right media and it will deal with any scale.  Might leave metal lace, but then so will a  needle gun. 

 

If you are talking about inside the hold, then there are not many experienced blasters who want to go in there.  It is just too enclosed, and the grit gets everywhere unless you can lie the boat on its sides.  It is also a bugger to clean up properly.  So needle guns might be your best bet inside the hold.

N

 

 

[DShK]

33 minutes ago, BEngo said:

No need to needle gun anywhere that is going to be blasted.  Choose the right media and it will deal with any scale.  Might leave metal lace, but then so will a  needle gun. 

 

If you are talking about inside the hold, then there are not many experienced blasters who want to go in there.  It is just too enclosed, and the grit gets everywhere unless you can lie the boat on its sides.  It is also a bugger to clean up properly.  So needle guns might be your best bet inside the hold.

N

 

 

 

What I was told was that blasting will struggle to fully deal with the scale. This person has worked at reputable boatyards for many decades - plus I would rather do a bit of extra work and he be wrong than spend 5 figures having the whole boat blasted and painted and have the paint fail prematurely.

 

The yard doing the blasting has voiced no concern over doing the hold and a background in these types of boats! It's definitely not going to be pleasant - my understanding is a grit blaster can take your flesh off if it deflects back at you...

[ditchcrawler]

2 hours ago, BEngo said:

No need to needle gun anywhere that is going to be blasted.  Choose the right media and it will deal with any scale.  Might leave metal lace, but then so will a  needle gun. 

 

If you are talking about inside the hold, then there are not many experienced blasters who want to go in there.  It is just too enclosed, and the grit gets everywhere unless you can lie the boat on its sides.  It is also a bugger to clean up properly.  So needle guns might be your best bet inside the hold.

N

 

 

Alvecote have had a couple done, talk to Malcolm 

[agg221]

2 hours ago, DShK said:

That's great info, thank you. As an aside - we got stuck behind you in the tunnel to the basin on the BCN challenge, with Cedar. I am terribly claustrophobic, so being stuck in that tiny tunnel with, what was it 5 boat engines running (the stove was going on Cedar too!) and no idea what was going on, was a bit of a nightmare for me! haha

 

Got the stern cants off and the remaining coach bolts cut off. Started sweeping up all the rust in the hold too. Need to wait for it to dry, then another sweep, a scrape and a power wash. It's been suggested that I need to needlegun the scale as the grit blasting won't really deal with that, so when she's out of the water I'll be doing that.

 

Yes, Oates really doesn't like Gosty Hill. The silt at the entrance slows us right down (very deep) and then it twists and tries to jam which, being narrow and not straight sided, it can. We have got progressively better - that run was over 20mins faster than the first time we went through, and on the way back we got it down to 35mins.

 

As per @BEngo's comment, you can grit blast off pretty much anything except rubber. Rubber is a right pain but that's handy as a pair of thick rubber gloves are very protective. However, the choice of grit determines speed, finish and effectiveness. For example, removing heavy scale needs big, heavy grit such as chilled iron. Because the particles are large, they don't get down into the pitting. By contrast, removing light surface rust or paint is better with fine alumina, including on a rough surface as the particles get right down into the bottom of the pitting. Fairly obviously, what works best is to start with the coarse and then go to the fine but most people aren't going to do that. It works OK to mix a blend of particle sizes and grit types (I did my weed hatch like that yesterday lunchtime) but in practice, the rate that a needle gun will take the heavy scale off at is much higher as the impact is heavier so it can crack right through the layers rather than just ablating the surface layer by layer. I suggest it is worth seeing whether they are happy to blast the interior once the heavy scale is removed, as it will do a much better, faster job on the residual rust down the pits and on areas where you just need to remove paint.

 

A couple of other things to consider. After the steel is clean it will flash rust very quickly. You can go straight on with an epoxy primer - the aluminium loaded surface tolerant ones would be my preference. Another alternative is to go over the surface after blasting with Eastwood After Blast (available from Frost Restoration - a quart will do the whole boat inside and out). This is zinc phosphate dissolved in phosphoric acid, with an acid detergent. I find it hugely effective at dealing with any last traces of rust down the pits and at holding off flush rusting for a very long time, even outdoors.

 

Alec

[DShK]

On 22/10/2024 at 19:48, agg221 said:

A couple of other things to consider. After the steel is clean it will flash rust very quickly. You can go straight on with an epoxy primer - the aluminium loaded surface tolerant ones would be my preference. Another alternative is to go over the surface after blasting with Eastwood After Blast (available from Frost Restoration - a quart will do the whole boat inside and out). This is zinc phosphate dissolved in phosphoric acid, with an acid detergent. I find it hugely effective at dealing with any last traces of rust down the pits and at holding off flush rusting for a very long time, even outdoors.

The guy doing the welding said he won't be working with fumes from paint etc in a confined space (the workshop). His reasoning is fair and he's extremely experienced and doesn't think it'll be a problem to just deal with the flash rust before painting.

 

Today's work-

 

Before - 

 

 

After - 

 

 

This was a pre-needle gun. Floor scrapers and shovels. Scraping up all the loose detritus, old paint, and loose scale. Then three passes with the pressure washer, paying special attention to clean behind the knees, and using it to take up as much loose scale as possible.

 

The by-product, two of these!  Considering making Cedar a shared boat and offering these for sale 🤣

 

 

Tomorrow is crane day. And the next two days are going to be long prep days, apparently the blasting is being done on wednesday (I was under the impression I had more prep time... but we won't get into that...) 

 

 

[stagedamager]

looking good, keep it up, I'm enjoying seeing the progress.

[Zen]

looks awesome, how thick was the base plate on build? and now?

[David Mack]

Just now, Zen said:

looks awesome, how thick was the base plate on build? 

About 3 inches I believe.