Betamarine AB Panel

[Mark R]

Morning all,

 

Once again, my apologies for the delay in replying. I only just managed to get back to my boat yesterday to carry out a little more fault finding. Unsurprisingly Tony was absolutely in correct in diagnosing a fault with the ignition switch. A live feed wasn’t being send to the AC terminal which feeds both the tachometer and PCB. I bypassed the switch and the tachometer jumped into life, although the LCD still wasn’t working. There was also signs of life on the PCB with the domestic battery charge warning LED lighting up before going out as the engine was started - result! I’ve ordered a replacement.

 

I was also able to determine that the engine alternator was functions, I’d previously installed battery monitors on the engine and domestic side and could see current being fed back to the battery (the domestic bank of batteries had been fully charged via solar so didn’t witness much on that side. I dismantled the tachometer and gave the lens a good clean which has improved viewing the dial dramatically.

 

I spoke to Beta Marine who told me the PCB was available at £75, or a new AB panel could be purchased for £518. I don’t think I can really justify buying either of these. They were able to supply me with a diagram of the PCB which I have. It would appear that the wiring into this matches what I have on my boat, I’ve bought some LEDs and will replace the missing/damaged ones on the board and see where that gets me. Given the condition of my panel I’m thinking of buying a piece of Perspex and creating my own control panel, this would allow me to produce something to my own specification far cheaper than buying the original, more simple one.

 

If I might ask a couple more questions relating to that….

 

I’d like to include oil pressure and coolant temperature gauges on the new board, I’m assuming that I can replace the current switches with the relevant senders that Beta Marine supply? Can I use any VDO gauge with these senders? Or should I purchase a gauge and its relevant sender together? I’d also like a warning led (and buzzer) for both oil pressure and coolant temperature, I’m not sure how that would wire in to the sender though?

 

Jen mentioned producing my own ‘PCB’ as a replacement to the one I have. While I’m not overly experienced with electronics (I can find my way around a multimeter), my neighbour is a hobbiest so he could help me.  Would any of you  be able to quickly sketch a general diagram to what I need to be producing? It’s not so much for the ignition switch/stop buttons or gauges  but more so the resistors when it comes to the LEDs/buzzers that I’d use for the warning side of things,The diagram I’ve attached gives me a good starting point but was thinking it might be simplified?

 

I really do appreciate the time and effort people have all given me so far.

 

OLD PCB 200-01295-200-01296.pdf

[Tony Brooks]

5 minutes ago, Mark R said:

I’d like to include oil pressure and coolant temperature gauges on the new board, I’m assuming that I can replace the current switches with the relevant senders that Beta Marine supply?

 

Be aware that there are two or possibly three resistance standards that senders and gauges adherer to. That is the US & European standards, and I have seen a hint that Vetus might have done their own. If you can find the standard your senders match then you can buy ANY gauge that adheres to that standard. However, without any gauges now, your s enders are probably just switches so they won't work.

 

I get the impression that the standards also tend to cover the thread and diameter used to screw them into the engine.

 

If you do have senders rather than switches then by measuring the sender resistance hot & cold, and stationary & revving then comparing with this data, you should be able to infer the standards the senders were made to,

 

Oil pressure US standard 240 Ohms @ 0 psi > 33 Ohms @ max pressure

Oil pressure European 10 Ohms @ 0 psi > 180 ohms @ max pressure

 

NOTE: The above only applies to modern senders – some older ones “pulse” the signal

 

 

Temperature US Standard 450 Ohms @ 100F > 30 Ohms @ 250F

Temperature European 280 Ohms @ 40C > 22 Ohms @ 120C

 

If you only have switches, then find the thread size and buy gauge and sender sets to suit that thread.

 

 

Re fitting new LEDs, make sure they are either rated at 12V or, as said earlier, make sure you fit a series resistor so they don't burn out a soon as they are energised.

 

Remember, the charge LED(s) need a parallel resistor across them, as discussed earlier. It sounds that those on your PCB are OK.

 

 

I’d also like a warning led (and buzzer) for both oil pressure and coolant temperature, I’m not sure how that would wire in to the sender though?

 

In that case, you either need combined senders & switches OR a T piece so both a switch and sender can screw into the block.

 

My advice re buzzers, is to fit one for each circuit, that you avoid the need for a diode pack that allows just one buzzer to be used. he buzzers are wired in parallel (across) the warning lamps

 

[cuthound]

The LCD display might start to display again if it dries out. They suffer from the ingress of condensation, particularly if located outside of the cabin.

 

I had the display fail on a shareboat, I removed the tacho and put it in the airing cupboard for a week to dry out any condensation and when I put it back a week later it was working 

[Eeyore]

Diode packs can be made up using these pre mounted ones. I’m sure other makes are available. Don’t be tempted to crimp terminals directly to the leads on diodes, many Barrus owners can tell you why!

Edited August 2, 2024 by Eeyore

[jonathanA]

I'd always thought a single buzzer and handful of diodes was the Properly engineered way to do it.... But as the buzzers can be had for peanuts if I was doing it I'd have multiple buzzers or I did find this 

https://cpc.farnell.com/multicomp-pro/mcabi-046-rc/sounder-105db-6-28vac/dp/SN36960?st=12v buzzer

 

Could have different sound for each alarm condition.

 

I would just order gauges and senders from the chinkies via ebay search 52mm gauges. Helpful if you can find out the thread type/size of the existing switches. Common ones are 1/8 npt or M10.  You can also find lots of adapters to convert from just about anything to anything... and T pieces it you need those.

[Tony Brooks]

9 hours ago, jonathanA said:

I'd always thought a single buzzer and handful of diodes was the Properly engineered way to do it.... But as the buzzers can be had for peanuts if I was doing it I'd have multiple buzzers or I did find this 

https://cpc.farnell.com/multicomp-pro/mcabi-046-rc/sounder-105db-6-28vac/dp/SN36960?st=12v buzzer

 

Could have different sound for each alarm condition.

 

I would not be sure that would work as you seem to think it will, but if it did, then an easy way to provide a buzzer. I think the 12V "back feed" that puts out most charge lights would prevent the buzzer working for the other senders while the alternator is charging. For oil and temp it would be try it and see. I 100% agree with the multiple buzzer point, seeing how cheap they are.

[nicknorman]

On 28/07/2024 at 11:45, Jen-in-Wellies said:

You've not said what engine it is connected to, or how many alternators it has. My Beta 43 has two alternators and there is a charge lamp for each, They are the two left hand ones, with battery icons on the panel. The left hand one is for the engine alternator, the right hand for the domestic, with a D inside the battery icon for Domestic.

If replacing these with LEDs, you need to wire a resistor in parallel to each alternator warning LED, as @Tony Brooks has mentioned, in order for the alternators to start charging reliably. Not only is the resistance important, the power dissipation is too. To get the current equivalent to a 2W incandescent bulb, the resistance should be V^2/P, so 144/2 = 72 ohm. A 68 ohm resistor is a standard value and will flow slightly more current. It needs to be capable of handling 2W, or more, so will be a substantial size. You'll need one for each of the alternator warning LED's. For example 68 ohm 2W, https://www.bitsboxuk.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=83_89_90&products_id=3870 I've done this sort of thing successfully on friends boats.

 

Also, watch out with the LEDs you are buying. Each needs a current limiting resistor in series with the LED to prevent the LED burning out almost instantly. Products sold as replacement warning lamps will likely have the resistor already built in, but if you are buying bare LEDs, you'll need to calculate the correct value and fit series resistors. This applies to all the warning LEDs, alternator, coolant, oil pressure etc.

Jen

Complicated thread but I’ll just mention that the engine/starter alternator is a 6 diode machine and thus doesn’t need a parallel resistor or low wattage bulb for the warning light. This is only required for the domestic alternator. And the latter is activated by the relay.

Bare LEDs will require a series resistor of around 1k ohm.

Edited August 3, 2024 by nicknorman

[Tony Brooks]

18 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

Complicated thread but I’ll just mention that the engine/starter alternator is a 6 diode machine and thus doesn’t need a parallel resistor or low wattage bulb for the warning light. This is only required for the domestic alternator. And the latter is activated by the relay.

Bare LEDs will require a series resistor of around 1k ohm.

 

Thanks, Nick, that goes some way to explaining the two alternator wires that are said to be on the wrong terminals. It is also why I asked for a photo of the alternator or the terminal ID. I have had a six diode machine energise with just the warning lamp connected to the wl terminal and nothing on the ign. one. It seems further evidence that someone had been messing with the wiring.

 

@Mark R Please send the photo of the back of the engine alternator or list the identification marks by each terminal so we can be 100% sure it is correctly wired. If it is a six diode machine, the IGN terminal is fed direct from the ignition on terminal on the ignition switch and the WL terminal from the same terminal but via the  warning lamp.l

[nicknorman]

31 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

Thanks, Nick, that goes some way to explaining the two alternator wires that are said to be on the wrong terminals. It is also why I asked for a photo of the alternator or the terminal ID. I have had a six diode machine energise with just the warning lamp connected to the wl terminal and nothing on the ign. one. It seems further evidence that someone had been messing with the wiring.

 

@Mark R Please send the photo of the back of the engine alternator or list the identification marks by each terminal so we can be 100% sure it is correctly wired. If it is a six diode machine, the IGN terminal is fed direct from the ignition on terminal on the ignition switch and the WL terminal from the same terminal but via the  warning lamp.l

Pretty sure there aren’t any marks. Apart from the fat B+ terminal, the other connections are by a 3 way plug on my 2010 Beta 43. This is mine…

 

[Tony Brooks]

Just now, nicknorman said:

Pretty sure there aren’t any marks. Apart from the fat B+ terminal, the other connections are by a 3 way plug on my 2010 Beta 43. This is mine…

 

 

hanks again Nick. If the OPs is like that, then the chances of wires being transposed is very small, so maybe he misread the diagram(s) he has. Unless you have a suitable tool and know how to do it, getting the cable and terminal out f those blocks is not so easy.

 

There is always the possibility that the alternator has been changed at some time to one with separate terminals, or even a 9 diode machine.

[ditchcrawler]

2 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

I would not be sure that would work as you seem to think it will, but if it did, then an easy way to provide a buzzer. I think the 12V "back feed" that puts out most charge lights would prevent the buzzer working for the other senders while the alternator is charging. For oil and temp it would be try it and see. I 100% agree with the multiple buzzer point, seeing how cheap they are.

After having to fit a new diode in the feed to my buzzer the not changes when the oil pressure light goes out and the alternator one is still on. It would be easy to do away with the three diodes and use three different buzzers in my case.

[Mark R]

Hi everyone,

 

Apologies for the delay in sending over the information about my alternator. The domestic alternator has two terminals on it. B+ and D+. In the manual it shows the Blue/Yellow being connected to the B+ and the Green/Yellow being connected to the D+. In my case these are reversed. 

 

Domestic alternator

B+ - (Green/Yellow to relay (87))

D+ - (Blue/Yellow to PCB)

 

The starter alternator has a three pin plug with the wires matching the diagram, these are L (Brown/Yellow), IG (Brown) & W (Black/Blue).

 

Starter alternator

L - (Brown/Yellow to relay (30) & PCB)

IG - (Brown to AC on ignition switch)

W - (Black/Blue to tachometer)

 

I’ve attached pictures of the domestic alternator, apologies I don’t have pictures of the starter alternator but it is as described on the schematic.

 

Would I be right in thinking I only now need a resistor for the domestic alternator?

 

 

[Tony Brooks]

5 minutes ago, Mark R said:

Domestic alternator

B+ - (Green/Yellow to relay (87))

D+ - (Blue/Yellow to PCB)

 

 

That is a nine diode machine and it must have more than two cables. In your photo, there is every indication of a very thick black cable that will be connected to B+ - the main charging lead. I may also have a thick main negative lead on B- or connecting the case to the engine block. in some way.

 

I think that the thin wire (probably green & yellow) is simply a feed to the relay contacts, so when the relay closes current is supplied to the relevant warning LED and then the D+ to energise the alternator.

 

I think the other thin blue and yellow cable is probably coming from the relevant charge warning LED with its parallel resistors.

 

If these really are reversed, then I don't see any way the alternator would energise but you say the alternator is charging. I suggest that when you get the PCB off you draw a circuit diagram showing all the components and what cable goes where. It is possisbe that your boat has been altered or that Beta (unlikely) made a colour mistake in the  diagram.

[Mark R]

Thanks Tony, I'll have to take a closer at the alternator next time I'm there. Sorry, I only included the thinner cables in my description. There is definetly a thick +positive that leads back to the battery bank (via the isolation block mounted around the engine and isolator switch). I don't recall there being a negative though.

 

Just in case I've confused the situation I have only seen the starter alternator returning current, my leisure batteries are always full as a result of solar, therefore see little signs of anything on my battery monitor when the engine is run to suggest the batteries are being charged as a result of the domestic alternator. I have however seen the domestic charge warning light on the PCB go out once the engine is running.

[Tony Brooks]

Just now, Mark R said:

Thanks Tony, I'll have to take a closer at the alternator next time I'm there. Sorry, I only included the thinner cables in my description. There is definetly a thick +positive that leads back to the battery bank (via the isolation block mounted around the engine and isolator switch). I don't recall there being a negative though.

 

Just in case I've confused the situation I have only seen the starter alternator returning current, my leisure batteries are always full as a result of solar, therefore see little signs of anything on my battery monitor when the engine is run to suggest the batteries are being charged as a result of the domestic alternator. I have however seen the domestic charge warning light on the PCB go out once the engine is running.

 

1. Then the alternator is Earth Return and the negative goes via the mountings and engine block. pretty normal on inland boats.

 

2. Cover/isolate the solar, put on as high a domestic electrical load you can for 10 minutes, then start and rev the engine. Any ammeter monitoring the domestic bank should show a charge at least equalling the domestic load. Then you will know if that alternator is delivering charge.

[Mark R]

Thanks Tony, I'll report back my findings, might be a few days though. As always, I really appreciate the time you take to comment!

[Iain_S]

6 hours ago, Mark R said:

Hi everyone,

 

Apologies for the delay in sending over the information about my alternator. The domestic alternator has two terminals on it. B+ and D+. In the manual it shows the Blue/Yellow being connected to the B+ and the Green/Yellow being connected to the D+. In my case these are reversed. 

 

Domestic alternator

B+ - (Green/Yellow to relay (87))

D+ - (Blue/Yellow to PCB)

 

(snip)

 

I think these should be the other way round, as per the manual. The circuit diagram I have shows yellow with green tracer going from B+ to the warning light/diode pack, with the yellow with blue tracer goes to the relay. The D+ is fed from the alternator's B+ via warning light, to relay to D+, the relay being switched on by the feed from the ignition switch. It should still work with them reversed, but the buzzer won't be triggered by the cabin alternator warning light,

[nicknorman]

19 minutes ago, Iain_S said:

I think these should be the other way round, as per the manual. The circuit diagram I have shows yellow with green tracer going from B+ to the warning light/diode pack, with the yellow with blue tracer goes to the relay. The D+ is fed from the alternator's B+ via warning light, to relay to D+, the relay being switched on by the feed from the ignition switch. It should still work with them reversed, but the buzzer won't be triggered by the cabin alternator warning light,

The buzzer is not triggered by the domestic alternator warning light anyway. Domestic alternator failure is not a critical failure. Whereas engine alternator failure may mean broken belt which means no water pump, and the other triggers of course are critical (oil pressure and coolant temperature).

 

So in fact it makes no difference which way round these wires are. Which is why it is working!

Edited August 5, 2024 by nicknorman

[Tony Brooks]

10 minutes ago, Iain_S said:

I think these should be the other way round, as per the manual. The circuit diagram I have shows yellow with green tracer going from B+ to the warning light/diode pack, with the yellow with blue tracer goes to the relay. The D+ is fed from the alternator's B+ via warning light, to relay to D+, the relay being switched on by the feed from the ignition switch. It should still work with them reversed, but the buzzer won't be triggered by the cabin alternator warning light,

 

Not saying you are wrong, but why would the LED PCB require a positive feed, which is what B+ will give it. Terminal 30 to 87 on the relay will require a positive feed. The warning lamps or LEDs normally get their positives from the ignition switch, or in this case the relay controlled by the ignition switch.

 

The D+ is normally fed from the ignition switch, or in this case either terminal 87 or 30 or from the field diodes depending on upon if you are talking about a stationary or running engine. There is a further complication in this case in that the warning lamp is an LED that will not conduct in reverse bias, although any parallel resistors will.

 

By reversing them on the alternator, I agree that the alternator should still charge, but I don't think that the B+ connection should go anywhere near the LED PCB.

 

 

 

[nicknorman]

50 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

Not saying you are wrong, but why would the LED PCB require a positive feed, which is what B+ will give it. Terminal 30 to 87 on the relay will require a positive feed. The warning lamps or LEDs normally get their positives from the ignition switch, or in this case the relay controlled by the ignition switch.

 

The D+ is normally fed from the ignition switch, or in this case either terminal 87 or 30 or from the field diodes depending on upon if you are talking about a stationary or running engine. There is a further complication in this case in that the warning lamp is an LED that will not conduct in reverse bias, although any parallel resistors will.

 

By reversing them on the alternator, I agree that the alternator should still charge, but I don't think that the B+ connection should go anywhere near the LED PCB.

 

The engine alternator and its bits, and the domestic alternator and its bit, are isolated from each other (except for negatives of course). The engine alternator has the power feed to the IGN terminal via the engine battery positive and ignition switch (6 diode machine). The domestic alternator has its power feed from the B+ on the domestic alternator (domestic battery positive) up to the panel to the relay contacts, then through the LED and resistors and then back down to the D+. The relay is of course operated using engine battery power via the ignition switch.

 

So the engine LED is operated from the WL terminal on the engine alternator (power comes from the starter battery) and the domestic LED is operated from the domestic battery positive. It is not a good idea to operate a 9 diode alternator warning light from a power source that isn’t at the same voltage as the alternator’s B+, you can get faint glowing etc.

 

All of which is why the domestic alternator B+ has to be routed up to the panel.

 

Yes you are of course right about the LED polarity, but as you say that won’t actually effect the operation of the alternator.

Edited August 5, 2024 by nicknorman

[Tony Brooks]

9 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

So the engine LED is operated from the WL terminal on the engine alternator (power comes from the starter battery) and the domestic LED is operated from the domestic battery positive. It is not a good idea to operate a 9 diode alternator warning light from a power source that isn’t at the same voltage as the alternator’s B+, you can get faint glowing etc.

 

I fully agree, the panel, not the warning lamp (or led PCB as was indirectly suggested). The domestic alternator warning lamp gets its current from that relay and before that from B+ on the domestic alternator. There is no way that the warning LEDs PCB should have a B+ derived feed to it.

[nicknorman]

21 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

I fully agree, the panel, not the warning lamp (or led PCB as was indirectly suggested). The domestic alternator warning lamp gets its current from that relay and before that from B+ on the domestic alternator. There is no way that the warning LEDs PCB should have a B+ derived feed to it.

I don’t really understand your point. The LED pcb needs a B+ derived feed just to the domestic LED (via the relay contacts and series resistor). The rest of the LEDs are of course not powered from the domestic alternator B+, they get power from the engine battery positive via the ignition switch. In other words, the PCB has two different sources of 12v connected to it. Obviously within the PCB there is no interconnection between them.

[Tony Brooks]

1 hour ago, nicknorman said:

I don’t really understand your point. The LED pcb needs a B+ derived feed just to the domestic LED (via the relay contacts and series resistor). The rest of the LEDs are of course not powered from the domestic alternator B+, they get power from the engine battery positive via the ignition switch. In other words, the PCB has two different sources of 12v connected to it. Obviously within the PCB there is no interconnection between them.

 

I was responding to this post, specifically the bit in red.

 

3 hours ago, Iain_S said:

I think these should be the other way round, as per the manual. The circuit diagram I have shows yellow with green tracer going from B+ to the warning light/diode pack, with the yellow with blue tracer goes to the relay. The D+ is fed from the alternator's B+ via warning light, to relay to D+, the relay being switched on by the feed from the ignition switch. It should still work with them reversed, but the buzzer won't be triggered by the cabin alternator warning light,

 

First point, but a very minor one, is that the OP's panel has a PCB with :ED "lamps", not warning lamps. That PCB probably contains the diode pack plus the parallel resistors and possibly the series resistors if they are not built into the LEDs

 

I don't see why the B+ needs to be connected to the PCB or diode pack because the relay does that. The relay contacts will however need a connection like the B+ one, but that is not how the post reads to me.

 

The OP is trying to understand his system, and I did give him a bum steer until I drew the circuit out, and I don't think what looks like incorrect info helps.

 

 

[nicknorman]

25 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

I was responding to this post, specifically the bit in red.

 

 

First point, but a very minor one, is that the OP's panel has a PCB with :ED "lamps", not warning lamps. That PCB probably contains the diode pack plus the parallel resistors and possibly the series resistors if they are not built into the LEDs

 

I don't see why the B+ needs to be connected to the PCB or diode pack because the relay does that. The relay contacts will however need a connection like the B+ one, but that is not how the post reads to me.

 

The OP is trying to understand his system, and I did give him a bum steer until I drew the circuit out, and I don't think what looks like incorrect info helps.

 

 

Warning light or LED I think is just semantics really. 
 

The main thing is that the wiring is as Iain_S says. The domestic alternator B+ is connected directly to the warning light or LED. After that is the relay contacts and thence to the D+ terminal. It could be the other way round ie B+ to the relay contacts and thence to the LED and then D+, but it isn’t.

[Tony Brooks]

2 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

Warning light or LED I think is just semantics really. 
 

The main thing is that the wiring is as Iain_S says. The domestic alternator B+ is connected directly to the warning light or LED. After that is the relay contacts and thence to the D+ terminal. It could be the other way round ie B+ to the relay contacts and thence to the LED and then D+, but it isn’t.

 

I see, fair enough, but I don't like the idea of anything more than necessary being live all the time the batteries are in circuit.