Betamarine AB Panel

[Mark R]

Morning all, 

 

I wonder if any of you would have a wiring diagram for Betamarine AB control panel. I've seen one online but it's for the post 2011 panel and mine is 2008ish. I see some differences in the panel so don't believe that this will translate (so to speak).

 

In the process of searching, I found this post...

 

https://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php?/topic/117305-beta-marine-38-control-panel-identification-and-issues/

 

 

It's the same panel, and possibly same issues. Interestingly the needle on my tachometer rests at the same position (with the ignition/engine off), I assumed that this was simply in need of replacement?

 

Any assistance would be great.

 

Mark

[Tony Brooks]

1 hour ago, Mark R said:

Morning all, 

 

I wonder if any of you would have a wiring diagram for Betamarine AB control panel. I've seen one online but it's for the post 2011 panel and mine is 2008ish. I see some differences in the panel so don't believe that this will translate (so to speak).

 

In the process of searching, I found this post...

 

https://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php?/topic/117305-beta-marine-38-control-panel-identification-and-issues/

 

 

It's the same panel, and possibly same issues. Interestingly the needle on my tachometer rests at the same position (with the ignition/engine off), I assumed that this was simply in need of replacement?

 

Any assistance would be great.

 

Mark

 

If the only "fault" is the rev counter not returning to zero when you turn the ignition off, then that is a feature, not a fault. If you tuned the ignition on for a moment without starting the engine, I bet it would drop to zero. If you can leave the ignition turned on until the engine actually stops, I expect the same will apply.

 

The alternator will keep sending pulses to the rev counter almost until the engine stops, but if you have turned the ignition off the rev counter electronics will not have any power to count the pulses and move the needle, so the needle stays where it is when power is removed.

 

If there are more faults and you describe them, it may be more productive for you.

[GUMPY]

1 hour ago, Mark R said:

Interestingly the needle on my tachometer rests at the same position (with the ignition/engine off), I assumed that this was simply in need of replacement?

Don't they all do that ?

Well mine did since the day I got it.

 

[hider]

4 minutes ago, GUMPY said:

Don't they all do that ?

Well mine did since the day I got it.

 

Yes they do.

 

And the digital crystal displays die too.

[Mark R]

Ahh so the dead LCD and misplaced needle are features, I thought that might be the case.

 

The panel is dead, no lights, no movement of needle when the engine is in action. Other than that the ignition and stop button work flawlessly!

[Tony Brooks]

48 minutes ago, Mark R said:

Ahh so the dead LCD and misplaced needle are features, I thought that might be the case.

 

The panel is dead, no lights, no movement of needle when the engine is in action. Other than that the ignition and stop button work flawlessly!

 

That suggests that part of the panel has lost the supply from the "ignition on" terminal of the ignition switch. There are often two 6mm blade connectors for that so one may have fallen off. It could be a blown fuse, but if so I don't understand why the stop button works. Often piggyback blade connectors get used behind control panels so one of those may have fallen off. It is likely to be one of the white cables on a Beta control panel that has fallen off or possibly another colour if it is after a fuse.

 

The other cause could be a negative connection has failed, but if that was the case you would more than likely be complaining of oil or temperature gauges going to full scale deflection (high oil pressure, overheating).

 

Some of the LEDs not working could also be caused by failed sender switches on the engine. They can be checked by turning the ignition on and shorting the cable on the engine switches to negative.

Edited July 27, 2024 by Tony Brooks

[Iain_S]

I think I'd start with the multimeter on the various bits that should have power with the ignition in the run position, such as the positive on the tachometer, the alternator light, etc., after a quick look for cable(s) disconnected at the keyswitch. If the starter works, there must be power to the keyswitch, but it may not be getting to the "run" stuff. There are numerous obscure faults that can result from bad connections at the multiplug, but you'd need several to kill the alternator light, oil pressure light and tacho.

 

Once you've got the panel working, the LCD display can be replaced by one from eBay. It's a bit of an awkward job, as you have to take the bezel and glass off the instrument and they are on very tight. The replacement LCD displays seem to be a lot better than the original, with the problematic connection between the glass and ribbon cable sealed in plastic, rather than the rubbery stuff used in the original.

[hider]

If the key switch is outside I would investigate whether it has succumbed to the damp.

[Tony Brooks]

1 hour ago, hider said:

If the key switch is outside I would investigate whether it has succumbed to the damp.

 

As suggested, use a multi-meter to ensure the ign. on terminal is actually live when turned on. Also, Beta tend to supply the stop button from that terminal an dthe OP says it is working so contradictory.

 

I suppose a faulty ignition switch might only fail on the ign. on side, but I would have expected more trouble with the heavier currents demanded from the start connection. We need to wait until the OP has checked how far the current form ign. on terminal is getting.

[Mark R]

Thanks all, it's possible that the unit is getting to the end of its working life. The warning lamps are actually LEDs connected to a PCB, there are clear signs of damage to the PCB, I'm assuming that I could replace this with bulbs as an alternative?

 

I'm not sure whether it's worth spending too much time or money on the panel, however as a 'temporary' fix it might be worth an hour or too playing with it.

[Tony Brooks]

5 minutes ago, Mark R said:

Thanks all, it's possible that the unit is getting to the end of its working life. The warning lamps are actually LEDs connected to a PCB, there are clear signs of damage to the PCB, I'm assuming that I could replace this with bulbs as an alternative?

 

I'm not sure whether it's worth spending too much time or money on the panel, however as a 'temporary' fix it might be worth an hour or too playing with it.

 

Yes, you can, but you need to ensure that the charge one has at least a 1.5 watt bulb in it so it can "wake up" the alternator. You could, if you wished, use self-contained LED lamps for the others. If you want to use an LED for the charge light, it will almost certainly need a resistor in parallel with it. Sorry, I can never remember the value for this.

 

Simply open up the holes the present LEDs used to suit the new the lamps. There is a section on my website in the electrical notes showing the wiring diagrams.

 

I don't know if your panel has a warning buzzer. If it does it involve possible complications, but if that is important to you such buzzer are cheap enough to fit one per lamp to avoid the need for a diode pack to make one buzzer serve all warnings.

 

Be wary of the small all plastic push in lamps because some have an LD inside while others use a grain of wheat dolls house bulbs. If the bulb fails, a complete lamp is needed.

[Jen-in-Wellies]

23 hours ago, Mark R said:

I wonder if any of you would have a wiring diagram for Betamarine AB control panel. I've seen one online but it's for the post 2011 panel and mine is 2008ish. I see some differences in the panel so don't believe that this will translate (so to speak).

Here is a scan of the wiring diagram for the 2AB panel that is in the back of the manual for my Beta 43 from 2007.

[Mark R]

Thanks Tony and Jen, I think I'll update the PCB to LEDs or bulbs, would I be right in thinking I have warning lights for both the starter and domestic batteries so would need bulbs for both of these? Would I also be right in saying that because the PCB is shot that the alternators won't currently function as they aren't being 'woken up'? The panel doesn't have a buzzer but I might add these given the cost.

 

As it happens the wiring diagram appears to be similar to the most up to date one and doesn't appear to note the PCB, I wonder if they created this panel for a short period of time? Thanks for taking the time to sent it over though!

 

Am I able to replace the tachometer with a generic VDO tachometer or would that pose issues?

Edited July 28, 2024 by Mark R

[Tony Brooks]

14 minutes ago, Mark R said:

Thanks Tony and Jen, I think I'll update the PCB to LEDs or bulbs, would I be right in thinking I have warning lights for both the starter and domestic batteries so would need bulbs for both of these? Would I also be right in saying that because the PCB is shot that the alternators won't currently function as they aren't being 'woken up'? The panel doesn't have a buzzer but I might add these given the cost.

 

As it happens the wiring diagram appears to be similar to the most up to date one and doesn't appear to note the PCB, I wonder if they created this panel for a short period of time? Thanks for taking the time to sent it over though!

 

Am I able to replace the tachometer with a generic VDO tachometer or would that pose issues?

 

How many alternators do you have? One and there is only one CHARGE warning lamp, two and there may be two CHARGE warning lamps. They are not normally battery warning lamps, although things often get altered by successive owners, so no one can be 100% sure. Charge warning lamps need to be at least 2.2 watts or have parallel resistors fitted to them. Some of the stuff on the PCB may be parallel resistors. Jen's diagram gives the resistor(s) value.

 

The fact you are still talking about changing the rev counter makes me suspect the loss of a live feed. Have you taken a voltmeter to the back of your panel to check the voltage on all the white cables when the ignition is on yet? If not, a new rev counter may be a waste of money.

 

You can push a pin or needle through cable insulation (at 12 or 24V) if you can't get a voltmeter connection onto a terminal.

 

Any rev counter that is alternator driven should work fine. Just do not get one for a petrol engine that takes pulses from the coil.

 

 

[Jen-in-Wellies]

1 hour ago, Mark R said:

Thanks Tony and Jen, I think I'll update the PCB to LEDs or bulbs, would I be right in thinking I have warning lights for both the starter and domestic batteries so would need bulbs for both of these? Would I also be right in saying that because the PCB is shot that the alternators won't currently function as they aren't being 'woken up'? The panel doesn't have a buzzer but I might add these given the cost.

 

As it happens the wiring diagram appears to be similar to the most up to date one and doesn't appear to note the PCB, I wonder if they created this panel for a short period of time? Thanks for taking the time to sent it over though!

 

Am I able to replace the tachometer with a generic VDO tachometer or would that pose issues?

You've not said what engine it is connected to, or how many alternators it has. My Beta 43 has two alternators and there is a charge lamp for each, They are the two left hand ones, with battery icons on the panel. The left hand one is for the engine alternator, the right hand for the domestic, with a D inside the battery icon for Domestic.

If replacing these with LEDs, you need to wire a resistor in parallel to each alternator warning LED, as @Tony Brooks has mentioned, in order for the alternators to start charging reliably. Not only is the resistance important, the power dissipation is too. To get the current equivalent to a 2W incandescent bulb, the resistance should be V^2/P, so 144/2 = 72 ohm. A 68 ohm resistor is a standard value and will flow slightly more current. It needs to be capable of handling 2W, or more, so will be a substantial size. You'll need one for each of the alternator warning LED's. For example 68 ohm 2W, https://www.bitsboxuk.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=83_89_90&products_id=3870 I've done this sort of thing successfully on friends boats.

 

Also, watch out with the LEDs you are buying. Each needs a current limiting resistor in series with the LED to prevent the LED burning out almost instantly. Products sold as replacement warning lamps will likely have the resistor already built in, but if you are buying bare LEDs, you'll need to calculate the correct value and fit series resistors. This applies to all the warning LEDs, alternator, coolant, oil pressure etc.

Jen

[Tony Brooks]

15 minutes ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

If replacing these with LEDs, you need to wire a resistor in parallel to each alternator warning LED, as @Tony Brooks has mentioned,

 

Which is why I hope I suggested that he uses 2.2W min bulbs for his charge lights. far easier than messing about with resistors. He could use 6w ones without a problem because they will only be drawing current when the ignition is on and the alternator not charging.

[Mark R]

Morning guys,

 

Sorry for the delay in replying.

 

Apologies Jen, I’ve got two alternators, sorry I should have been more specific and mentioned it as being a ‘charge warning’ LED.

 

I’ve attached some pictures of the control panel, the PCB and relay. I’ve done some very quick fault finding and can confirm that the 2 sets of three resistors appear to all work. I get 12Ω resistance on each resistor (36Ω from end to end, so can consider these working. The resistor that appears damaged gives a reading of 1.4kΩ, I can’t see the banding on this so can’t confirm it’s within limits. I need to sit down and test the diodes, obviously you’ll see the green power led is missing.

 

I’m going to wire it all back in today and carry out the checks that Tony mentioned. It’s possible that I’m not getting live to the tachometer/PCB. I still have the issue that the schematic for the AB panel doesn’t match my wiring. If I ignore the PCB, I still have different wiring to the relay and my Yellow/Green(12) and Blue/Yellow (13) appear to be wired in reverse at the domestic alternator. I’ll call Beta Marine and ask them if they can provide any assistance in terms of a schematic. 

 

As you can sere the panel is in a poor state, I might just give it some more time and elbow grease to see what I can manage.

 

I’ll spend an hour or two on it today and let you know the outcome.

 

Mark

 

Edited July 30, 2024 by Mark R

[Tony Brooks]

2 minutes ago, Mark R said:

I still have the issue that the schematic for the AB panel doesn’t match my wiring.

 

This is why I find circuit diagrams only a rough guide, and it is better to know how these things are wired and interact with each other. Manufacturers seem to do random modifications that are not always documented, and previous owners are even worse.

 

The relay is very likely to be doing the job of the ignition switch to energise the alternator (feed the D+ terminal) via a warning lamp/LED. The two coil connections (from ign. sw. & neg.) can be reversed without any problems, as can the two switched contact wires.

 

9 minutes ago, Mark R said:

If I ignore the PCB, I still have different wiring to the relay and my Yellow/Green(12) and Blue/Yellow (13) appear to be wired in reverse at the domestic alternator.

 

I think we need a photo of the back of the alternator and any identification letters and size of the relevant terminals. If this was the engine alternator, I would suggest that the warning lamp connection (D+) and the rev counter (W) had been reversed and if so the alternator would not charge and the rev counter would not work, BUT rev counters are usually driven by the engine alternator.

 

[Mark R]

Hi Tony, I'll try and produce a diagram once I've been down there today.

 

Below is the wiring for the schematic and what I have on my boat, I'm thinking that 87 on the relay on my boat shouldn't connect to the B+ but the D+ instead.

 

On schematic

Relay (control panel)

30 (High power feed) - (Blue/Yellow (13) from L on starter alternator)

87 (High power output) - (Feed to domestic battery charge warning light), (Purple, not used)

85 (Relay coil ground) - (Black (10), -ve to 9 way plug, ground on engine mount and 4 and 6 on tachometer)

86 (Relay feed) - (White goes to position 9 on 9 way plug and AC on ignition)

 

On my boat:

Relay (control panel)

30 (High power feed) - (Brown/Yellow (9) from L on starter alternator), (Purple, not used)

87 (High power output) - (Green/Yellow (12) to B+ on domestic alternator )

85 (Relay coil ground) - (Black (10), -ve to 9 way plug, ground on engine mount and 4 and 6 on tachometer)

86 (Relay feed) - (White goes to position 9 on 9 way plug and AC on ignition.

[Tony Brooks]

4 minutes ago, Mark R said:

Below is the wiring for the schematic and what I have on my boat, I'm thinking that 87 on the relay on my boat shouldn't connect to the B+ but the D+ instead.

 

I agree, so someone has been at it. Not sure what the AC is about, unless it is the AUX terminal (ignition on). (possibly Auxiliary Control)

 

So the alternator may also have been miswired and goodness knows what else.

 

I should have said earlier that I am assuming both alternators are nine diode machines, but the domestic one may be a six diode machine and they have an extra thin wire or two. One allows the alternator to turn the warning lamp/LED off.

 

 

[Mark R]

Thanks Tony,

 

Maybe it has been played with. The wiring to the engine components is as in the schematic below, there doesn’t appear to be anything not wired correctly as per that diagram other than 12 in 13’s place and 13 in 12’s place.

 

Taking into account Jen’s schematic above, it looks like I need to wire the relay correctly, as well as swap over 12/13, maybe then the LEDs on the PCB will show life.

[jonathanA]

Sorry of I'm stating the bleeding obvious but is the fuse in place tin12 and not blown. Could be a batt +ve to the pcb 

[Jen-in-Wellies]

My wiring diagram, despite being from a similar vintage engine, isn't going to be a lot of help with your PCB. My boat's AB panel uses incandescent bulbs, not LEDs. Your LED indicators are obviously a Beta option, as the panel is drilled to take 5mm LEDs, not 1/2" bulb holders. Do you have the work order number for your engine? If you do, talk to Beta Marine. They should still have all the details for your engine, as supplied and may well be able to provide the proper wiring diagram with the WO number. It is on a label on the engine and should also be in any Beta documentation that is still with the boat.

Does your control panel live outside, for example in a cruiser stern pedestal? The PCB and components look rather manky and corroded, so I'm guessing that they have had years of humidity exposure. The solder mask has been worn off in places, exposing copper tracks. I'd not trust anything at this stage. You've been measuring individual component values, which is a good start, but I'd be looking at the conductivity across all PCB tracks between components too. At this sort of age, solder joints can fatigue crack in a high vibration situation, like the hull over a narrowboat engine. If it was me, I'd be seriously considering replacing the entire PCB with a home made one, but that requires some electronic skills to be successful with.

[IanD]

5 minutes ago, Jen-in-Wellies said:

My wiring diagram, despite being from a similar vintage engine, isn't going to be a lot of help with your PCB. My boat's AB panel uses incandescent bulbs, not LEDs. Your LED indicators are obviously a Beta option, as the panel is drilled to take 5mm LEDs, not 1/2" bulb holders. Do you have the work order number for your engine? If you do, talk to Beta Marine. They should still have all the details for your engine, as supplied and may well be able to provide the proper wiring diagram with the WO number. It is on a label on the engine and should also be in any Beta documentation that is still with the boat.

Does your control panel live outside, for example in a cruiser stern pedestal? The PCB and components look rather manky and corroded, so I'm guessing that they have had years of humidity exposure. The solder mask has been worn off in places, exposing copper tracks. I'd not trust anything at this stage. You've been measuring individual component values, which is a good start, but I'd be looking at the conductivity across all PCB tracks between components too. At this sort of age, solder joints can fatigue crack in a high vibration situation, like the hull over a narrowboat engine. If it was me, I'd be seriously considering replacing the entire PCB with a home made one, but that requires some electronic skills to be successful with.

 

I'd have thought a replacement PCB from Beta (if that's where it came from) would be relatively cheap, and much easier than DIY...

[Jen-in-Wellies]

7 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

I'd have thought a replacement PCB from Beta (if that's where it came from) would be relatively cheap, and much easier than DIY...

Absolutely. Assuming availability, for which the OP will have the highest chance of success with the work order number for the original engine and panel order.