Running prop while moored

[nb maggie]

I try not to run my engine while moored at all, but I was advised that my Lister Petter engine should not be run in idle but with the prop engaged.

 

I note that BW's Good Practice guide sent out with my licence states that you should not run your prop while moored, it causes damage to the canal.

 

Any views ?

 

Surely the altenator and water pump put enough load on the engine ?

[Bernie]

A different engine but we were told by the boat builder that there was no need to engage the prop when running the engine to charge the batteries. According to him and since we also have a 230V as well as a 12V alternator this was putting enough load on the engine. We have been following his advice for the last 5 years and all is fine.

[John Orentas]

Many engines do not like to be run with very little load, if a anything diesel engines are more tollerent of this than some others, two stroke petrol engines are notoriously fickle when lightly loaded, they oil up their spark plugs and generally get sludged-up.

 

The average 40 horsepower narrowboat engine, even when cruising it is probably only running at one tenth of it's rated power output, at tickover and out of gear it is much less than that, in this condition the engine or some parts of it never reach a satisfactory running temperature. Some components, the cylinder bores and piston rings seem to need a degree of load to keep them 'bedded'.

 

I don't like running the engine for long periods, often unattended just to rotate the alternator, I am not sure that putting it in gear really makes things much better, (I would always be worried that a stray log would be drawn into my prop), it is certainly antisocial and cannot do the canal bed much good. With the kind of usage my boat gets, which is probably not typical, I prefer to cruise the boat for an hour or two at least every month.

 

One tip: I moor on the Peak Forest canal, it is so shallow and narrow you cannot cruise at much above tick-over. There is a short length of canal which was extensively rebuilt some years ago, it now takes the form of a complete concrete trough. When I pass through there I run the engine at full power for a couple of minutes, does it a world of good, it may frighten the ducks but after that little run, all smoking ceases and the engine runs a lot smoother. (I will deny on oath that I ever said this).

 

John Squeers

Edited October 15, 2004 by John Orentas

[Noah]

Firstly, hello to all. I've been loitering as an avid reader for a while but this is my first posting here.

 

John O, I think I know that particular concreted stretch! It's not far from my own mooring and I use it for the same purpose! In fact, an occasional thrashing there has done my engine a world of good and I think, has reduced the bore glazing that I inherited from the boat's previous owner. I do believe that giving the boat a run whenever possible, at vaying engine speed (within reason) is much better for the health of the engine than idling at a mooring. The last time I ran the engine in gear whilst moored (away from other boats) the prop did indeed get fouled on a piece of timber. No damage done but the racket woke me up from an afternoon siesta!

 

Noah

[timboharticus]

 

I was told to use cheap oil grade API CC to prevent the glazing of my engine bores.

 

Anyone else heard this?

[Noah]

I use a CC spec monograde 30 at around 9-10 quid. Seems OK for my 4 cylinder Kubota engine and was recommended by BetaMarine, the engine's marinisers. Try Morris Lubricants of Shrewsbury

 

Noah

[Martin]

I regularly run my Lister HRW3 to generate power and have only rarely run it in gear.

So deep draughted is our boat and so shallow the mooring that I did run it in gear to start with for a couple of weeks just to dredge out our particular spot a bit!

I haven't noticed any particular ill effects and with the right thermostat and so on, the engine reaches its rated temperate with ease.

 

We were advised (sorry to all those that have heard this before on the other forum) to bung the boat in a full lock and run it flat out for 10 minutes to clear it of glazing and coking.

We were told to expect sparks, soot and all sorts from the exhaust but not to worry.

 

We saved this for our trip on the Severn and then ran it flat out running downstream - we must have hit 15 knots easily!

It's amazing the difference when you get a decent water depth underneath you!

Sure enough, there were sparks and hot chunks of soot from inside the exhaust itself flying around but after 10 minutes the engine seemed altogether smoother and less smoky.

By the time we had got up the Avon onto the Stratford Canal however, it was back to its old self - so the cure didn't last long and I haven't bothered since.

[Jason King]

My narrowboat's gear lever has a red button beneath it that, when pressed in, runs the engine at any speed I like without turning the prop. Don't all boats have this? I've often wondered why some moored boats are running their engine with prop turning.

[Guest]

My narrowboat's gear lever has a red button beneath it that, when pressed in, runs the engine at any speed I like without turning the prop. Don't all boats have this? I've often wondered why some moored boats are running their engine with prop turning.

 

Well a variation of the button yes - but not all boats - some have speed wheel controls.

 

As to the need to run engines under load this is an interesting one - the manual that came with our 4 year old boat said not to run the engine for long periods whilst not under load but run it with the gearbox engaged. The theory is running it not under load causes glazed bores.

 

Our boat has the same engine (Izusu) as many boats we hired in the past, none of which were we instructed not to run the engine continuously on whilst in neutral so to be honest I'm a bit confused on this point..

[PhilR]

My narrowboat's gear lever has a red button beneath it that, when pressed in, runs the engine at any speed I like without turning the prop. Don't all boats have this? I've often wondered why some moored boats are running their engine with prop turning.

 

All single lever control boxes have some method of disengaging the gear shift. This is necessary because most (all?) diesel engines need to be set above idle speed for cold start and initial warm-up.

[Morat]

The betas in the boats I've hired started with the lever in the middle. We never used the red button, and were not asked to.

It does sounds like a good idea for warm up though.

[PhilR]

The betas in the boats I've hired started with the lever in the middle. We never used the red button, and were not asked to.

It does sounds like a good idea for warm up though.

 

That is interesting. I wonder if those Betas were adjusted with a higher than necessary idle speed to make starting easier for hirers?

[Liam]

You can start my parents Perkins D3 with it on tick over, and it's set to a lower than usual tick over speed, no problems really.

[nb Innisfree]

IMO the problem with running engines at tickover is doing it when the engine is cold which greatly increases the time to reach operating temp and increases the risk of bore glazing together with longer periods of condensation forming. Surely it is better to run faster when cold to minimise warm up time, when it reaches optimum temp then running slowly should be no problem.

[Naughty Cal]

The betas in the boats I've hired started with the lever in the middle. We never used the red button, and were not asked to.

It does sounds like a good idea for warm up though.

 

Not all boats need the button pressed in the engage neutral and extra revs to fire up. Our big Volvo has never needed it to sstart and it starts first crack every time.

[magpie patrick]

Not all boats need the button pressed in the engage neutral and extra revs to fire up. Our big Volvo has never needed it to sstart and it starts first crack every time.

 

 

Our outboard will not start unless it's in neutral: the starter is disabled at all other settings, we have a large single lever for navigating and a smaller seperate throttle to rev the engine without engaging gear, first engine I've seen with this set up

[Naughty Cal]

Our outboard will not start unless it's in neutral: the starter is disabled at all other settings, we have a large single lever for navigating and a smaller seperate throttle to rev the engine without engaging gear, first engine I've seen with this set up

 

The Volvo has to be in neutral to start, which is engaged when the throttle lever is in the middle, you can feel it engage neutral. The button on the side of the throttle (the red one on some boats) lets the operator engage more revs whilst in neutral. What i was saying is that Cal will fire up from cold with out the need for extra revs with just neutral engaged.

 

A lot of older boats had/have twin levers. It isnt unusual. Just make sure it is in neutral though, a lot will still start if not in neutral when parts start to wear. A friend of ours with a Birchwood 25 had some work done to his boat. The marina staff moored it up with a rope through the pulpit rails, started it up in gear and ripped the rails off the bow of the boat.

[WJM]

In gear or not, running the engine on tick-over is the real problem. Since low temperatures are the enemy, the cause of glazing inside the cylinders, I leave mine in neutral but start off with some fairly high revs for ten or fifteen minutes to get the heat up, then I drop back to a speed a little above tick-over to maintain that temperature. Apart from maintaining good engine heat, it raises alternator voltage which charges the batteries faster.

 

I would argue that leaving it in gear but on tick-over is every bit as bad as tick-over in neutral - engine speed is the issue. I see no need to use a propellor to burrow holes in the canal bed in order to charge a battery!

 

And in case that hasn't convinced you, why bother putting hours of pointless usage onto your gearbox, drive bearings and stern gland?

[Naughty Cal]

Not sure if this is the case with modern engines but i was always told never to rev a cold diesel engine too high. For this reason and the fact we dont need to we never rev ours above tickover to start it. We also never leave it to warm up on the pontoon (a practice we have seen a lot of at Burton) we fire it up, untie the ropes then leave.

[Athy]

Phylis, I have always understood the ecact opposite! Start the engine, rev it up a few times so that it begins to get warm, and leave it for at least ten minutes before setting off - otherwise the engine quickly reaches a plateau and will not deliver sufficient power for any speed above fast tickover. But my engine is fairly large and fairly old, perhaps the correct procedure depends on the type and age of the engine.

[RLWP]

Phylis, I have always understood the ecact opposite! Start the engine, rev it up a few times so that it begins to get warm, and leave it for at least ten minutes before setting off - otherwise the engine quickly reaches a plateau and will not deliver sufficient power for any speed above fast tickover. But my engine is fairly large and fairly old, perhaps the correct procedure depends on the type and age of the engine.

 

That's an odd one, I guess it's something to do with governor wear

 

I see that no-one in this thread has pointed out that running your engine in gear while tied up is a breach of the BW bye-laws yet, so I will

 

Richard

[Naughty Cal]

Phylis, I have always understood the ecact opposite! Start the engine, rev it up a few times so that it begins to get warm, and leave it for at least ten minutes before setting off - otherwise the engine quickly reaches a plateau and will not deliver sufficient power for any speed above fast tickover. But my engine is fairly large and fairly old, perhaps the correct procedure depends on the type and age of the engine.

 

It must depend on the engine then. Ours is large but fairly modern and doesnt ever seem to have a problem delivering sufficient power

 

The one problem we do have is getting it up to a reasonable temperature, if left ticking over it wont reach anything above 60 degrees, when cruising it will reach 80 degrees after a while, when tanking along it sits at a steady 90 degrees. The manufacurer states a running temperature of between 60 degrees and 90 degrees so they seem to be aware of the large difference in termperatures achieved. If we have been out cruising all day with the temperature sat at around 80 degrees, by the time we have gone from the marina entrance to our berth it will be back down to 60 degrees, the cooling is that efficient.

[magpie patrick]

It must depend on the engine then. Ours is large but fairly modern and doesnt ever seem to have a problem delivering sufficient power

 

The one problem we do have is getting it up to a reasonable temperature, if left ticking over it wont reach anything above 60 degrees, when cruising it will reach 80 degrees after a while, when tanking along it sits at a steady 90 degrees. The manufacurer states a running temperature of between 60 degrees and 90 degrees so they seem to be aware of the large difference in termperatures achieved. If we have been out cruising all day with the temperature sat at around 80 degrees, by the time we have gone from the marina entrance to our berth it will be back down to 60 degrees, the cooling is that efficient.

 

Ripples engine had a thermostat that prevented coolant from circulating until the engine was warm, this has been removed as it was once the cause of overheating when it failed to release altoghether....

[mayalld]

My narrowboat's gear lever has a red button beneath it that, when pressed in, runs the engine at any speed I like without turning the prop. Don't all boats have this? I've often wondered why some moored boats are running their engine with prop turning.

 

You have made the classic mistake of assuming that they are doing so because their boat isn't fitted with any means of running the engine at speed without the prop turning.

 

They are, in fact, doing so because it is better for their boat (but worse for the canal) than running out of gear.

 

There are two reasons why a boater may feel the need to do this, although regardless of the reasons it is a breach of the boat licence conditions;

1. Running an engine with little or no load for prolonged periods can cause bore glazing, and consequent loss of compression.Running in gear applies load, and solves that problem.
2. Some gearboxes (Technodrive for example) are designed such that oil circulation comes from the output shaft rotation, and running one of these out of gear for a prolonged period can result in the box siezing.

[nb Innisfree]

Ripples engine had a thermostat that prevented coolant from circulating until the engine was warm, this has been removed as it was once the cause of overheating when it failed to release altoghether....

 

The proper solution is to fit a failsafe t/stat, one that fails in the open position, I believe most if not all are this type now, besides which a t/stat not only reduces warm up time it also maintains a constant engine temp.