Cavalcade and the NBTA

[IanD]

2 minutes ago, beerbeerbeerbeerbeer said:

I expect he’ll explain it again before the day is out. 
 

Well not to you, it's a waste of effort. Byee...

Edited April 18 by IanD

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

44 minutes ago, PaulJ said:

Though to be fair it was also they only place Ive ever been robbed too 😀

what happened there then?

any tips, in hind sight was there something you could have done to avoid it?

 

Ive had bikes pinched off the top purely because I’d neglected to lock them once

 

once in Brum and once in Nottingham 

4 minutes ago, IanD said:

Well not to you, it's a waste of effort. Byee...

 

why are you such an angry man?

 

the earlier comment was regarding the apparent friendliness of the London boaters in response to someone who might be nervous/cautious/wary about mooring next to them. 
But you turn it round to suit your political agenda. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[PaulJ]

36 minutes ago, beerbeerbeerbeerbeer said:

what happened there then?

any tips, in hind sight was there something you could have done to avoid it?

 

Ive had bikes pinched off the top purely because I’d neglected to lock them once

It was (presumably) an opportunist towpath scrote who just walked on the boat while I was moored at Tottenham for the night.

70 x12 widebeam so I never felt/heard anything despite the scrote walking in right behind me as I was dozing on the sofa. Lost me phone and wallet but had a lovely undisturbed snooze😀

@IanD I purposely dont comment on other boaters. They often turn out to be my customers. Besides in my case its the buggars that move that cause me to que at locks 😀

I do however like to put my side forward when it comes to London Boating- challenging it can be sometimes but its not really as bad as some would have you believe- 😱

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

I’ve heard the many horror stories of Tottenham. 
 

When I came through Tottenham lock on Monday it absolutely threw down the rain and the wind blew fierce. Worst 10min of weather I’ve experienced when boating but kind of fun. And I lost me cap to the wind.
Had no choice to sit for 10min while it blew itself out. And then bright sunshine!

 

On my return journey I’m looking forward to seeing more of the London boating and finding out how it all ‘works’. I’m interested in spending time at Hackney Wick. 
And perhaps St Pancreas. 
 

Any pointers, recommendations or advice is welcome 👍

 

[IanD]

17 minutes ago, PaulJ said:

It was (presumably) an opportunist towpath scrote who just walked on the boat while I was moored at Tottenham for the night.

70 x12 widebeam so I never felt/heard anything despite the scrote walking in right behind me as I was dozing on the sofa. Lost me phone and wallet but had a lovely undisturbed snooze😀

@IanD I purposely dont comment on other boaters. They often turn out to be my customers. Besides in my case its the buggars that move that cause me to que at locks 😀

I do however like to put my side forward when it comes to London Boating- challenging it can be sometimes but its not really as bad as some would have you believe- 😱

 

I don't think the problem with boating in London is seen by those who CC/CM there, as you say there's a friendly community of all kinds of boats ranging from massive shiny widebeams to small scruffy yoghurt pots, some even afloat. The problem seems to be for visitors who can't find anywhere to moor -- especially in more popular areas -- because the towpath moorings are full of end-to-end boats (often doubled up), the free VMs are often occupied by chronic overstayers, and the few paid-for VMs are expensive or already booked (and sometimes already occupied by non-payers).

 

Yes there are plenty of towpath spaces further out from the centre well away from facilities and transport links but that's not where people want to moor (or stop) -- as soon as you get to a spot which is decent to moor and near facilities/shops/transport it's full of boats who rarely move to free up space -- or swap with a buddy elsewhere, either way this gives visitors the cold shoulder. Anywhere near the centre is chock-full, no free spaces even with double-mooring in the most popular areas.

 

It's resident-friendly but in many cases visitor-unfriendly... 😞

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

3 minutes ago, IanD said:

It's resident-friendly but in many cases visitor-unfriendly... 😞

have you visited by boat and if so what’s been your experience?

genuine question not looking to argue. 
 

I found coming through to Paddington there were at least two stretches of visitor moorings left unoccupied.  I’ll have to look on map to say exactly where but if I remember right both before reaching the Paddington arm for the Basin. 
It seemed much more congested in the Eastend. 
 

I was surprised how lock landings (bar one) were left free and water points were not squatted. 
 

Possibly the amount of tourists was a little irritating. Sitting in the way at lock landings with the obligatory coffees (when they should have an ice cream with flake)
 

and of course when someone is moving they have all day to do the one lock 😂 in a lazy cool continental what’s the hurry manner, 

“But Ive come from Cowley mate and want to get to Limehouse.”

where’s Cowley ? they say. 

 

[PaulJ]

13 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

I don't think the problem with boating in London is seen by those who CC/CM there, as you say there's a friendly community of all kinds of boats ranging from massive shiny widebeams to small scruffy yoghurt pots, some even afloat. The problem seems to be for visitors who can't find anywhere to moor -- especially in more popular areas -- because the towpath moorings are full of end-to-end boats (often doubled up), the free VMs are often occupied by chronic overstayers, and the few paid-for VMs are expensive or already booked (and sometimes already occupied by non-payers).

 

Yes there are plenty of towpath spaces further out from the centre well away from facilities and transport links but that's not where people want to moor (or stop) -- as soon as you get to a spot which is decent to moor and near facilities/shops/transport it's full of boats who rarely move to free up space -- or swap with a buddy elsewhere, either way this gives visitors the cold shoulder. Anywhere near the centre is chock-full, no free spaces even with double-mooring in the most popular areas.

 

It's resident-friendly but in many cases visitor-unfriendly... 😞

Thats my point. Im always a visitor. Its often hard but not impossible to find a mooring.

If you spot a hole then grab it or be prepared to travel a while longer..

Ive never rafted up in London even on 70fters- but to be fair I rarely try to moor between Viccy Park and Whatdyacallit Cemetry/Paddington.

On the move early one morning I was just passing one chap who shouted at me that he was just leaving soon if I wanted a nice spot. So not so visitor unfriendly as Id never met him before- its not so bad

 

 

 

[IanD]

17 minutes ago, PaulJ said:

Thats my point. Im always a visitor. Its often hard but not impossible to find a mooring.

If you spot a hole then grab it or be prepared to travel a while longer..

Ive never rafted up in London even on 70fters- but to be fair I rarely try to moor between Viccy Park and Whatdyacallit Cemetry/Paddington.

On the move early one morning I was just passing one chap who shouted at me that he was just leaving soon if I wanted a nice spot. So not so visitor unfriendly as Id never met him before- its not so bad

 

Which is of course where many boaty visitors to London would like to moor, for obvious reasons. And they used to be able to without the problems they have trying to do this today since the number of moored boats has gone up so much. I've seen how the numbers have increased over the last 30 years I've lived here near the canal and especially the last ten years and the difference is huge, even in the suburbs where I am.

 

As I said, if you're willing to moor further out (sometimes a *lot* further...) and away from shops/buses/railways there's plenty of space. But understandably many would prefer to moor either near these facilities or further in, and that's where the problem lies. And it didn't use to be like this... 😞 

Edited April 18 by IanD

[Lady M]

It wasn't great when CRT took over.

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

37 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

Which is of course where many boaty visitors to London would like to moor, for obvious reasons. And they used to be able to without the problems they have trying to do this today since the number of moored boats has gone up so much. I've seen how the numbers have increased over the last 30 years I've lived here near the canal and especially the last ten years and the difference is huge, even in the suburbs where I am.

 

As I said, if you're willing to moor further out (sometimes a *lot* further...) and away from shops/buses/railways there's plenty of space. But understandably many would prefer to moor either near these facilities or further in, and that's where the problem lies. And it didn't use to be like this... 😞 

and possibly 30 years ago you could find parking space in London,

and some kind soul would give you a push when your battery’s flat

🤷‍♀️

such is life,

if some have found a ‘loop hole’ to live in London I can’t blame them. 
if I were young I’d do exactly the same thing, 

 

[MtB]

4 hours ago, IanD said:

It's easy to say "bring in new management, they'll do better" but it won't change CARTs financial problems --

 

 

But CRT, Parry et al ARE the new management. All the same criticisms used to get levelled at BW and CRT with a new chief executive were created as a new broom to sweep clean. Ever since the get-go they have done little better than BW, AFAICS. 

 

 

[Captain Pegg]

9 hours ago, IanD said:

 

Since that's clearly a dig at the likes of me, I'll rise to the bait... 😉 

 

CART need more money, and some of this has to come from boaters. CCers have for many years been making a smaller contribution to CART funding (which pays for the canals their boat is on) than home moorers -- some of who pay CART directly, some via the 9% levy on other mooring fees -- and this low-cost living aboard is one factor that has lead to the large rise in the number of CMers, many of who (not all) seem to do their best to bend/break the rules which law-abiding boaters follow.

 

The CC surcharge on the license fee goes at least part-way to correcting this anomaly (and increases CART income), and simply means that everyone -- CCer or CMer or HMer or EOGer -- pays a similar amount to CART. Or at least CCers don't continue to pay less -- some HMers who pay CART directly or via EOG obviously pay much more. It's a bit like closing a historical tax loophole that some people have taken advantage of but now protest when this is corrected... 😉 

 

You might also care to note that I've suggested several measures to raise further money for CART (like boat-age-related surcharge/discount) which would result in "wealthy leisure boaters" like me paying more money *and poorer people in old boats paying less* -- which hardly smacks of self-interest or prejudice against poorer boaters, does it?

 

Nothing to do with self-satisfaction, just fairness (those with the broadest shoulders carry the heaviest load), and trying to help close the gap between CART funding and the expenditure needed to maintain the canals.

 

Now expecting accusations of being a "champagne socialist" -- well if that means being well-off and thinking I should pay more and those less well-off should pay less, guilty as charged... 😉 

That’s a bit of a confessional, Ian.

 

I’m not sure why you dedicate three long paragraphs to the surcharge for boaters with no home mooring; other than perhaps to force your own agenda. In principle I have no objection to it.

What I do observe though is that CRT - along with some folk on this forum - fall into a trap of stereotyping those boaters.
 

The point I do have issue with is the conflict between what CRT have previously described as a home mooring in their licensing guidance and what they define as a home mooring for the purposes of the surcharge.

 

Ultimately I’m not sure why people in the fortunate position of being able to go boating in the manner of their own choosing would be so publically antagonistic toward what is largely a less fortunate group and who I observe have very little, if any, direct impact on the chief protagonists on this thread.

 

For sure there are piss-takers on the canals but where in life aren’t there? Mostly though it’s people trying to make the best of their situation within their own broadly reasonable interpretation of the rules. They really don’t deserve the language that is directed at them by some other boaters.

 

NB - I had considered myself to be a wealthy leisure boater but given I own what is possibly the oldest purpose built welded steel leisure boat on CRT waters I may have to rethink that.

 

 

 

 

Edited April 18 by Captain Pegg

[ditchcrawler]

I felt a bit miffed paying to take my boat to Cavelcade and mooring outside someone who was moored for free

[MtB]

29 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

I felt a bit miffed paying to take my boat to Cavelcade and mooring outside someone who was moored for free

 

And I bet you didn't pay an extra £4k! 

 

 

 

[ditchcrawler]

44 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

And I bet you didn't pay an extra £4k! 

 

 

 

Getting close from what I can remember, I couldn't afford a pint in the marquee in the evening, but they were charging London prices

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

£10 for two pints in the Crown by Limehouse Basin, eastend pub. 
£13 and more in the jewellery quarter in Brum,

and £7.60 in Tod, I’m led to believe. 
 

 

[dmr]

2 hours ago, beerbeerbeerbeerbeer said:

£10 for two pints in the Crown by Limehouse Basin, eastend pub. 
£13 and more in the jewellery quarter in Brum,

and £7.60 in Tod, I’m led to believe. 
 

 

Nah, Ive just paid £4.80 for another one of the Cloudwater beers and it was very good, but still lots of stuff at £3.80.

[Higgs]

One poster wrote this: "The CC surcharge on the license fee goes at least part-way to correcting this anomaly (and increases CART income), and simply means that everyone -- CCer or CMer or HMer or EOGer -- pays a similar amount to CART. Or at least CCers don't continue to pay less -- some HMers who pay CART directly or via EOG obviously pay much more. It's a bit like closing a historical tax loophole that some people have taken advantage of but now protest when this is corrected... 😉"

 

 

The only reason HMers and EoG moorers pay more than CCers is because they are paying for exclusive moorings. They pay extra for the extra they choose to have. Moorings do not come for free. That is why they pay more, they have more. And both home moorers and EoG moorers should now be liable to be included in the PAYG culture when they are not on their moorings, that a lot seem to think should apply to CCers.

 

I think the mentality of some home moorers is: They think CCers should be liable to pay Hmers and EoG moorers some kind of indirect subsidy.

 

People that moor in marinas pay 9% of their mooring fee to the marina, so that the marina can pay one of its overheads to CRT. There's absolutely no connection there between the moorer and CRT. There's no directly paying anything to CRT by those moorers.

 

EoG moorers have a mooring contract liability. End of.

 

IanD and some moorers are full of BS entitlement delusions.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 19 by Higgs

[Lady M]

The underlying issue is that the intentions of a poorly worded law are being misused on a scale that adversely impacts home moorers and is increasing.  Surcharging may make some think twice.  This is the same approach as charging extra for widebeam boat licences.  

[MtB]

1 hour ago, Lady M said:

The underlying issue is that the intentions of a poorly worded law are being misused on a scale that adversely impacts home moorers and is increasing.  Surcharging may make some think twice.  This is the same approach as charging extra for widebeam boat licences.  

 

Adversely impacts the canals I'd suggest, by providing a massive financial incentive for boaters to keep their boats out on the public towpath rather than on a formal mooring. 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 19 by MtB
add missing word

[Higgs]

25 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

Adversely impacts the canals I'd suggest, by providing a massive financial incentive for boaters to keep their boats out on the public towpath rather than on a formal mooring. 

 

There's no need for a 'formal' mooring. 

 

 

[Machpoint005]

On 17/04/2024 at 20:39, beerbeerbeerbeerbeer said:

>> Not my plight matey,

I don’t want no kids 

 

No, you'll just want someone else's kids to look after you in your dotage.

 

 

[IanD]

13 hours ago, Captain Pegg said:

That’s a bit of a confessional, Ian.

 

I’m not sure why you dedicate three long paragraphs to the surcharge for boaters with no home mooring; other than perhaps to force your own agenda. In principle I have no objection to it.

What I do observe though is that CRT - along with some folk on this forum - fall into a trap of stereotyping those boaters.
 

The point I do have issue with is the conflict between what CRT have previously described as a home mooring in their licensing guidance and what they define as a home mooring for the purposes of the surcharge.

 

Ultimately I’m not sure why people in the fortunate position of being able to go boating in the manner of their own choosing would be so publically antagonistic toward what is largely a less fortunate group and who I observe have very little, if any, direct impact on the chief protagonists on this thread.

 

For sure there are piss-takers on the canals but where in life aren’t there? Mostly though it’s people trying to make the best of their situation within their own broadly reasonable interpretation of the rules. They really don’t deserve the language that is directed at them by some other boaters.

 

NB - I had considered myself to be a wealthy leisure boater but given I own what is possibly the oldest purpose built welded steel leisure boat on CRT waters I may have to rethink that.

 

 

I have loads of tolerance for people with different lifestyles to me, regardless of their appearance or wealth or canal usage or anything else, so long as they follow the rules/laws and have consideration for others -- this applies on the canals as much as anywhere else.

 

I don't have much tolerance for piss-takers who ignore rules/laws when it's convenient for them, and act selfishly to the detriment of other people or users of a shared resource like the canals. "CMers" is the label that has been generally used for one group of boaters who do this, with the vociferous support of the NBTA -- and like many others I don't see why I should be nice to them, any more than I should be nice to any other group who flout/break the laws, which after all are one thing that keeps society functioning.

 

There are poor people in all walks of life both on land and the canals who deserve sympathy and support, but the way to do this should be to provide them with a liveable income and perhaps try and make life cheaper for them, for example with a reduced license fee for older boats -- which for some reason many people seem to be dead against, possibly because they might end up paying more as a result -- or in some cases, just because I suggested it... 😉 

 

Though going by the ages of many of the people and boats on CWDF, I suspect they would end mostly up paying less, not more...

[Higgs]

10 minutes ago, IanD said:

 

I have loads of tolerance for people with different lifestyles to me, regardless of their appearance or wealth or canal usage or anything else, so long as they follow the rules/laws and have consideration for others -- this applies on the canals as much as anywhere else.

 

I don't have much tolerance for piss-takers

 

Well, there's no law that says anyone needs a 'formal' mooring, there's no extra added value to a mooring contract, and I know you're taking the piss. You won't be reading this post, because you are intolerant, and appear to be a bigot.

 

 

 

 

Edited April 19 by Higgs

[MtB]

30 minutes ago, Higgs said:

 

Well, there's no law that says anyone needs a 'formal' mooring

 

 

 

Actually there is.

 

1995 British Waterways Act 17(c)

 

either—

(i)the Board are satisfied that a mooring or other place where the vessel can reasonably be kept and may lawfully be left will be available for the vessel, whether on an inland waterway or elsewhere; or

(ii)the applicant for the relevant consent satisfies the Board that the vessel to which the application relates will be used bona fide for navigation throughout the period for which the consent is valid without remaining continuously in any one place for more than 14 days or such longer period as is reasonable in the circumstances.

 

 

Yes there is an exemption in (ii) for boats being "used bona fide for navigation throughout the period for which the consent is valid", but boats CMing do not pass this test.